04-13-16 07:57 AM
108 1234 ...
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  1. Oshasat's Avatar
    The "majority" isn't EVERYone. Only THE market leader (Samsung) can hope to afford to transfix onto "majority" only. Everyone else, Apple included, must stand ready to grab any crumbs the giants neglect.

    Niche markets are rarely majority. Samsung ignores those "crumbs" at their peril. BB itself once felt secure in their domination of PKB "majority". Apple grabbed crumbs BB had neglected. Here we are.

    By some definitions, Apple should never have even tried.
    Wasn't Steve Jobs notorious for NOT conducting market research, but following his own gut instincts? Therefore the iPhone was a product that the public didn't "know" it wanted?

    Posted via CB10
    03-26-16 10:10 AM
  2. Smokeaire's Avatar
    Then their dilemma is solved then since (I am assuming) they all bought the priv because it has a pkb.
    Actually there is a person who my wife works with who bought the Priv last week because she missed the keyboard of her old Blackberrys. Most people will stick with a brand they like. iphone people will usually stay with iphones because of the environment. Samsung people tend to stick with Samsung phones. Blackberry people usually will stay with Blackberry, no matter what new Android phone is released.
    As has been pointed out Blackberry hasn't exactly been on top of publicity and advertisements for the Priv.
    Creating an unrealistic artificial scenario does not disprove or negate the points I've made.
    03-26-16 10:18 AM
  3. StoicEngineer's Avatar
    If Apple and/or Samsung came out with a PKB phone, the popularity would rise because those two companies would actually bother to show people(via advertising, a strange concept to BlackBerry) what it could do and what consumers can do with it.
    Yes, there would be advertising, but that's not the reason that PKB popularity would rise.

    Apple/Samsung would eliminate the need for their large numbers of customers to think comparatively. Rather, they would be presented with a "new" input method that didn't require a brand change. Brand-loyalty is real.

    It's not the PKB that can make or break BlackBerry even as a niche supplier. The diminishing customer loyalty is evidence of the deeper problem. Blackberry is rightly no longer concerned with the consumer device space having lost continuously since the iPhone captured people's attention. Perhaps, in the future consumers may matter to BlackBerry, but they're not the focus today.

    Posted via CB10
    03-26-16 10:47 AM
  4. Ronindan's Avatar
    Actually there is a person who my wife works with who bought the Priv last week because she missed the keyboard of her old Blackberrys. Most people will stick with a brand they like. iphone people will usually stay with iphones because of the environment. Samsung people tend to stick with Samsung phones. Blackberry people usually will stay with Blackberry, no matter what new Android phone is released.
    As has been pointed out Blackberry hasn't exactly been on top of publicity and advertisements for the Priv.
    Creating an unrealistic artificial scenario does not disprove or negate the points I've made.
    Actually it is not an artificial scenario; since you mentioned that you know people that wanted pkb smartphones and has moved on from BB to other os for various reasons. But now that there is an android smartphone with a good pkb smartphone made by BB. So what is stopping these people from buying a priv, you mentioned that they prefer to stay with the brand they use currently and bb marketing is poor. But if having pkb smartphone is that important to them, then they have done their research and is aware that bb released android pkb smartphone. If they have not then they are not in the market for pkb phones, they might reminisce about it, but in the end of the day they are happy with the vkb smartphone that they have. As per your posts you only know one who actually bought priv.

    This is the same data that OEM see, they know some people out there wanted pkbs smartphones but when it comes down to it, these very same people will be content with a vkb smartphone. Even when a good pkb smartphone is available.
    TgeekB likes this.
    03-26-16 10:51 AM
  5. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    People don't want pkb phones. They want apps and big screens.
    03-26-16 11:06 AM
  6. Smokeaire's Avatar
    Actually it is not an artificial scenario; since you mentioned that you know people that wanted pkb smartphones and has moved on from BB to other os for various reasons. But now that there is an android smartphone with a good pkb smartphone made by BB. So what is stopping these people from buying a priv, you mentioned that they prefer to stay with the brand they use currently and bb marketing is poor. But if having pkb smartphone is that important to them, then they have done their research and is aware that bb released android pkb smartphone. If they have not then they are not in the market for pkb phones, they might reminisce about it, but in the end of the day they are happy with the vkb smartphone that they have. As per your posts you only know one who actually bought priv.

    This is the same data that OEM see, they know some people out there wanted pkbs smartphones but when it comes down to it, these very same people will be content with a vkb smartphone. Even when a good pkb smartphone is available.
    Read the post above yours. It answered your post before you posted it.
    My wife bought a Priv because she likes Android, but likes my PKB. She only knew of the Priv's existence because of my involvement in CB.
    Until all major phone brands offer a equal choice between models with PKB and VKB one can't prove which types the majority of phone users prefer.
    03-26-16 11:09 AM
  7. TgeekB's Avatar
    It's not as complicated as some are making it out to be. The majority of people were tired of typing on tiny little keyboards. They wanted larger screens. Here we are. Have a beer.
    JeepBB and eyesopen1111 like this.
    03-26-16 11:13 AM
  8. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Until all major phone brands offer a equal choice between models with PKB and VKB one can't prove which types the majority of phone users prefer.
    Never gonna happen. Too many manufacturers only make vkb phones.
    andy957 likes this.
    03-26-16 11:14 AM
  9. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    How often have many of those 99% ever saw, much less tried, PKB in a store? How do they know vkb is "better" if they've never really tried pkb?
    A pretty sizable percentage of people in their 30s, 40s, and 50s are former BB users, from back when every BB had a PKB. You know, the "good old days." Ask yourself this: how many of those people, who are fully aware of the advantages of a PKB and have experience with them, still own a PKB phone? The answer is: that percentage is tiny. If a PKB can't persuade these people, why would it influence those who have never even used one?

    Where's the "smartphone Olympics" proving which is superior?
    It's called the marketplace. There are winners and losers daily.

    Most folks buy regular grade gasoline for their cars. Does that make it "better" than premium grades? Does that mean producers should ONLY offer regular grade?
    Incredibly poor analogy. "Regular" is the correct grade of gasoline for most normally-aspirated cars. Higher octane gas is for engines that run at higher compression rates, especially super- or turbo-charged cars. More octane means the fuel is more difficult to detonate, which means that under higher compression, it's not going to predetonate due to heat and compression. Predetonation robs the engine of power and leads to an incomplete burn.

    Automobiles outsell aircraft 99+ to 1. Does that mean Boeing, Airbus, etc should abandon aircraft and jump in to an already overcrowded automotive market??
    Another poor analogy. Aircraft are significantly faster that cars, can go places cars can't go, require much more training and licensing, and cost far more - often orders of magnitude more. They're a completely different class of vehicle. And aircraft manufacturers are profitable.

    Niche markets are, almost by definition, relatively low volume markets. That doesn't mean they CAN'T be profitable.
    Perhaps, but BB hasn't been able to make them profitable. Granted, some of that has to do with the fact that they tried to build their own ecosystem too. But consider that all early Android phones had PKBs, and those manufacturers that still exist from that time no longer make PKBs. If there was profit to be made, why wouldn't at least ONE of those manufacturers serve that niche, profitably?

    The truth is that some niches are too small to be profitable, especially in markets where competition is high and production costs are high. You can't make 10,000 phones and make a profit unless you can sell them for $10,000 each. The fixed costs are far too high to make them profitable at a lower volume, and the competition is too fierce to sell at that price.

    The only reason new PKB phones are being made is because BB has been willing to take a loss selling them for the past several years. But those days are quickly coming to an end.
    Last edited by Troy Tiscareno; 03-26-16 at 05:58 PM.
    Ronindan, andy957 and eyesopen1111 like this.
    03-26-16 11:19 AM
  10. Smokeaire's Avatar
    Never gonna happen. Too many manufacturers only make vkb phones.
    I never said it will happen. Of course it won't happen. I was pointing out that some of the conclusions drawn here are based on invalid arguments and assumptions.
    03-26-16 11:25 AM
  11. Smokeaire's Avatar
    It's not as complicated as some are making it out to be. The majority of people were tired of typing on tiny little keyboards. They wanted larger screens. Here we are. Have a beer.
    You have proof to support your stated supposed fact? I would like to read your source for that conclusion.
    03-26-16 11:28 AM
  12. TgeekB's Avatar
    You have proof to support your stated supposed fact? I would like to read your source for that conclusion.
    I don't need a source neither do I care.

    The market is what it is, that is easy to prove. If you can't handle that I'm not sure what to say. Go on believing that if tiny little keyboards with tiny little screens were available to more people, they would sell like hot cakes.
    Ronindan and JeepBB like this.
    03-26-16 11:33 AM
  13. Ronindan's Avatar
    Read the post above yours. It answered your post before you posted it.
    My wife bought a Priv because she likes Android, but likes my PKB. She only knew of the Priv's existence because of my involvement in CB.
    Until all major phone brands offer a equal choice between models with PKB and VKB one can't prove which types the majority of phone users prefer.
    I see.. now it is up to the OEMS prove to themselves there is a great demand for pkb since there is limited options out there. Kinda odd since OEMS still makes pkb smartphones:

    QWERTY keyboard phones
    03-26-16 11:35 AM
  14. to boldly go's Avatar
    Passport's the cat's meow. Videos, music, typing, word prediction if you want to use it, battery that can keep going longer than I can, I think I'm an addict. I love my touchscreen phones but never want to pick them up again.

    Plus it's so cool looking. Sure, bold's are easier to type on, but when you want everything right there in your hand, Passport's got it.

    No, I don't think BlackBerry should drop touch screen phones, and I believe pkb users are limited because:
    ...nobody else makes a good pkb phone
    ...users have never experienced one and don't know
    ...users go to contract / next plan phones and don't see pkb phones in their options, as few people have seen a living breathing BlackBerry Passport in the stores.
    03-26-16 12:07 PM
  15. Smokeaire's Avatar
    I don't need a source neither do I care.

    The market is what it is, that is easy to prove. If you can't handle that I'm not sure what to say. Go on believing that if tiny little keyboards with tiny little screens were available to more people, they would sell like hot cakes.
    I never wrote PKB phones would sell like hot cakes. I'm questioning the reasoning behind the conclusions and the conclusions some people have made.
    It is illogical to assume that more people prefer A over B when B isn't available as a equal choice.
    Simple.
    Did the consumer determine what the manufacturer produces, or did the manufacturer determine what choices the consumer have?
    03-26-16 12:09 PM
  16. Smokeaire's Avatar
    I see.. now it is up to the OEMS prove to themselves there is a great demand for pkb since there is limited options out there. Kinda odd since OEMS still makes pkb smartphones:

    QWERTY keyboard phones
    OEMs don't have to prove anything. I never wrote that either. It is the person who postulates a conclusion is the one to prove it.
    03-26-16 12:15 PM
  17. TgeekB's Avatar
    I never wrote PKB phones would sell like hot cakes. I'm questioning the reasoning behind the conclusions and the conclusions some people have made.
    It is illogical to assume that more people prefer A over B when B isn't available as a equal choice.
    Simple.
    Did the consumer determine what the manufacturer produces, or did the manufacturer determine what choices the consumer have?
    It's generally both. Marketing is done to determine what people are asking for. A company is not going to waste money on something people won't buy.....well, except Blackberry. They also won't force people to use what they don't want because there is little chance of success. The only logical conclusion, though I can't prove it because I wasn't in the board room at the time, is that they determined the best move was to make larger vkb phones.

    We can always question whether something else would work also, nothing wrong with that. I just believe the companies who's sole purpose is to make money have probably already done their homework. I'm sure if some day it shows they could make millions selling PKB phones, you will see them produced faster than you can blink.
    Smokeaire and JeepBB like this.
    03-26-16 12:16 PM
  18. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    Did the consumer determine what the manufacturer produces, or did the manufacturer determine what choices the consumer have?

    Yes. Consumers who used to own BlackBerry pkb phones jumped on the all-touch, plentiful app store bandwagon years ago. Blackberry was an option, but they went to iPhone or Android. No manufacturers forced them to buy their products.


    Posted via the Diva's beautiful Red Passport!
    Ronindan, TgeekB and JeepBB like this.
    03-26-16 12:23 PM
  19. anon(9353145)'s Avatar
    My buddy picked up a Priv recently, he started on the older BlackBerry PKB phones and was missing it for nostalgia. Saw him last week and asked him if he was happy with it. He was very happy with the device, but he said he barely uses the PKB - the VKB is great (he loves the word suggestions on letters). He didn't even know about being able to use the PKB as a trackpad! Which speaks to the lack of advertising / awareness - using the slidedown PKB for scrolling is probably more useful to the average person than using it for typing.

    I love the PKB as well but people have moved on. If they're going to continue with phones, I think they have to release a reasonably priced all touch device on Android and try to sell up the Security / Privacy aspects to differentiate themselves. Motorola is maybe the role model for BlackBerry as a phone vendor going forward imo.
    03-26-16 12:55 PM
  20. Denise in Los Angeles's Avatar
    I hope BlackBerry makes an Android phone like the Passport design, but with a rectangle screen. It would need to look stylish and luxurious, though. No cheap-looking design, like those unattractive Vienna renders.

    Posted via the Diva's beautiful Red Passport!
    03-26-16 01:21 PM
  21. IndianTiwari's Avatar
    I am involved in the auto industry here in the USA where tens of thousands of smartphones are used for both business and personal use and I can't tell you the last time I seen someone using a PKB device.

    As I said in one of my earlier post, I have seen a few government employees using older Blackberry legacy devices, but even that is rare these days.

    Touchscreen devices are what the consumer and corporate markets are using in 2016 and that's the cold hard truth whether you choose to accept it or not.
    I completely agree with you Ronald. That is a reality . Only a handful of customers are using the PKB. Z30 days I remember when everybody was expecting a flagship all touch successor and Passport was launched. Though Passport arguably is the best ever device by BlackBerry but it couldn't propel the sales. Z30 successor instead of Passport would have been a game changer IMO.

     Passport SE on Etisalat 4G Network propelled by 10.3.2.2876
    bakron1 likes this.
    03-26-16 02:11 PM
  22. xtremeled's Avatar
    So what you are all telling me is:

    - that because touch-screen phones are so widespread, the the market research must have been done that proved that.
    -people are using touchscreen phones therefore that is what they want
    - no acknowledgment that PKBs would impact on the manufacturer's bottom line

    Ok, got the picture now.
    BB was the king of the PKB. They started to move towards the VKB which, they failed at miserably until BB10. When BB10 was finally released it was on VKB phones. So, if BB, which is blind to market changes could see the change coming it's safe to say that the VKB is the most popular and it is what the people want.
    03-26-16 07:44 PM
  23. georgeeipi's Avatar
    Determining people's preference for A over B isn't simple when there are unequal numbers of A and B (smokeaire summarised that nicely), and I would bet my bottom dollar that the market research was not adequate to fully tease apart the complexities of fully determining what that preference is. To do that would require repeated controlled experiments, something that academia would be good at, but market research companies would skim over because of the time pressures they are under. Yet people on this thread seem to jump in and state their opinion as fact. I wonder why people want to state opinion as fact, without doing the actual work required to turn their opinion into fact?
    03-26-16 08:18 PM
  24. playfoot's Avatar
    I am involved in the auto industry here in the USA where tens of thousands of smartphones are used for both business and personal use and I can't tell you the last time I seen someone using a PKB device.

    As I said in one of my earlier post, I have seen a few government employees using older Blackberry legacy devices, but even that is rare these days.

    Touchscreen devices are what the consumer and corporate markets are using in 2016 and that's the cold hard truth whether you choose to accept it or not.
    Interesting. I work in the finance/VC/investment/legal world. And I still see many many PKB's. Mostly older legacy models as the various IT's departments either relate bad experiences with BB of late or that BB's own statements with respect to perhaps no more hardware, perhaps the last model, etc. provides no interest in even attempting another cycle of purchasing new BB PKB's.

    A day does not go by when I do not see a PKB. Just Friday we were completing a bid, and one fellow was furious at how poor was the VKB in trying to bang out long emails and statements - his group retired all BB's about 14 months back. Another fellow showed his Q - he has sufficient seniority to "have his way". Admittedly, the Q is a rarity. And I have not seen a PP my world.
    03-26-16 09:18 PM
  25. anon(9721108)'s Avatar
    No.

    People love all-touch phones. 99% of phones sold are all-touch. Apple and Samsung, Sony, LG and others make the phones that customers want to buy.

    Posted via the Diva's beautiful Red Passport!
    talk to more people and you will see frustration with Virtual keyboards. My friend was complaining about how he couldnt log into his kijiji app right in front of me yesterday because "the keyboard is too damn small on his iphone 5S and causing errors." Plus you NEED auto correct to save you on glass because no glass keyboard is as fast or accurate as a physical keyboard! Glass cannot keep up to the speed skills you acquire as you get faster and faster in typing skills. Just because the trend is virtual, don't generalize everyone and clump them into one group. Blackberry has/had LOYALTY BECAUSE of the physical keyboards

    Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk
    03-26-16 11:11 PM
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