04-12-14 09:01 AM
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  1. badiyee's Avatar
    OP, what if I tell you, speculative (at its best), that both phones are neither the hail mary pass, nor are they the lead to positive cash flow in huge margins?
    clickitykeys and bekkay like this.
    04-05-14 09:49 PM
  2. BlackberryFan777's Avatar
    It's not "basically the same phone as the Z30." For one, it only has 1.5 gigs of RAM when 2 gigs should really be a minimum for a BB10 device. It's not even an LTE device at all. The Z30 is about high quality components like speakers and a paratek antenna and such. I see nothing about that on this device. I'd say the Z3 is a Z10 with a bigger, but less beautiful screen and insufficient RAM to run quickly. Having said that, I suppose at $150 or $200, it could be a hit and provides good value. It's just that, well, I'm guessing Chen is just breaking even with the device and trying to gain back marketshare in Indonesia. That's fine, maybe even a good call, but it's hardly the stuff of a turnaround. Maybe, no one move by itself equals a turnaround, but this move certainly doesn't.

    The Q20 *could* sell. No one has really figured out why the BlackBerry loyalists did not upgrade to BB10. I mean, we all have theories, but Thor was probably right to order "too many" Z10s and then be demoralized by the surprising lack of sales -- or at least conclude that going private or going with Mike L's plan would be necessary as the fix can't be a short-term one done in the glaring light of financial market scrutiny. I mean, there should have been a *truckload* of pent-up demand as BlackBerry hadn't shipped a real flagship device for almost a year and a half by a conservative estimate and probably longer to be fair. Did BlackBerry's 70 million activated users just look at BB10 and go "eh?" Or, have they already moved on and become two device people with the BlackBerry being the device that people have to carry for work and the iPhone or Sammy being the device they purchase because it kicks *** and they love it? Will enterprise want to upgrade to BES 10 if their employees are entranced by iPhone and Android devices? I mean, it's a BYOD world now, right?

    Chen has real issues. He needs a freaking Ferrari device that distinguishes itself in a way that makes people say, "awesome... my ios/android can't do that... I want a BlackBerry." But, I see no such device on the horizon. But, then again, I know next to nothing about Q30/Z50. And, about 2 million of us -- or probably 1.5 million of us -- will be willing to buy the next BB10 device that roars even if it doesn't quite distinguish itself, but that's just not a number Chen can or should live with. Kicking *** in Indonesia is fine, good, and commendable. But, it's North America and Europe that will determine whether Chen turns the company around or turns the company into a little SaaS or server company and shrinks it into irrelevancy... and then calls himself a success. We'll see. I'm betting he'll demand a device and, finally, be willing to sell into the North American market at little to no margins in order to gain marketshare. If he does that, and the device has something truly special that benefits professional communicators, I'm with him.
    04-05-14 09:53 PM
  3. badiyee's Avatar
    It's not "basically the same phone as the Z30." For one, it only has 1.5 gigs of RAM when 2 gigs should really be a minimum for a BB10 device. It's not even an LTE device at all. The Z30 is about high quality components like speakers and a paratek antenna and such. I see nothing about that on this device. I'd say the Z3 is a Z10 with a bigger, but less beautiful screen and insufficient RAM to run quickly. Having said that, I suppose at $150 or $200, it could be a hit and provides good value. It's just that, well, I'm guessing Chen is just breaking even with the device and trying to gain back marketshare in Indonesia. That's fine, maybe even a good call, but it's hardly the stuff of a turnaround. Maybe, no one move by itself equals a turnaround, but this move certainly doesn't.

    The Q20 *could* sell. No one has really figured out why the BlackBerry loyalists did not upgrade to BB10. I mean, we all have theories, but Thor was probably right to order "too many" Z10s and then be demoralized by the surprising lack of sales -- or at least conclude that going private or going with Mike L's plan would be necessary as the fix can't be a short-term one done in the glaring light of financial market scrutiny. I mean, there should have been a *truckload* of pent-up demand as BlackBerry hadn't shipped a real flagship device for almost a year and a half by a conservative estimate and probably longer to be fair. Did BlackBerry's 70 million activated users just look at BB10 and go "eh?" Or, have they already moved on and become two device people with the BlackBerry being the device that people have to carry for work and the iPhone or Sammy being the device they purchase because it kicks *** and they love it? Will enterprise want to upgrade to BES 10 if their employees are entranced by iPhone and Android devices? I mean, it's a BYOD world now, right?

    Chen has real issues. He needs a freaking Ferrari device that distinguishes itself in a way that makes people say, "awesome... my ios/android can't do that... I want a BlackBerry." But, I see no such device on the horizon. But, then again, I know next to nothing about Q30/Z50. And, about 2 million of us -- or probably 1.5 million of us -- will be willing to buy the next BB10 device that roars even if it doesn't quite distinguish itself, but that's just not a number Chen can or should live with. Kicking *** in Indonesia is fine, good, and commendable. But, it's North America and Europe that will determine whether Chen turns the company around or turns the company into a little SaaS or server company and shrinks it into irrelevancy... and then calls himself a success. We'll see. I'm betting he'll demand a device and, finally, be willing to sell into the North American market at little to no margins in order to gain marketshare. If he does that, and the device has something truly special that benefits professional communicators, I'm with him.
    I think there is a real flaw to your statement. I don't mean to be rude. But there is.

    You make a lot of claims that a device has to be so and so spec, and has to have LTE.

    There's just a problem. The device wasn't actually marketed to people like you. Both the Z3 and the Q20 were not. They have different targeted audience, and for you to lament about specs and what-should-have, what-should have-not, the thing is, you aren't in their cross hairs.
    04-05-14 10:00 PM
  4. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    My biggest worry, is that Chen/BBRY deferred hardware liability to an OEM like Foxconn instead of being on the hook for a large production run of devices that may or may not sell. All well and good... I can get on board with that. What bugs me though, is that BBRY has also decided to do another production run of OS7 Bold devices. If that new production run bites into device sales of the Z3, Foxconn (or any other manufacturer for that matter) will be extremely wary of building devices on behalf of BBRY in the future.

    Sent from my T100TA using Tapatalk
    04-05-14 10:10 PM
  5. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    Ford got a $5 billion loan and a $9 billion line of credit.

    Posted via my Nexus 10.
    Huh. Looking back I'm seeing mixed reports. They did get a government stimulus package.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    04-05-14 10:13 PM
  6. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    My biggest worry, is that Chen/BBRY deferred hardware liability to an OEM like Foxconn instead of being on the hook for a large production run of devices that may or may not sell. All well and good... I can get on board with that. What bugs me though, is that BBRY has also decided to do another production run of OS7 Bold devices. If that new production run bites into device sales of the Z3, Foxconn (or any other manufacturer for that matter) will be extremely wary of building devices on behalf of BBRY in the future.

    Sent from my T100TA using Tapatalk
    The bolds are probably bought by the business types that need their track pads. I doubt it would even touch the Z3 market.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    04-05-14 10:14 PM
  7. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    The bolds are probably bought by the business types that need their track pads. I doubt it would even touch the Z3 market.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    That would be nice if it were true. Unfortunately OS7 devices outsell BB10 devices by a large enough margin that the enterprise market can't come close to accounting for the disparity.
    04-05-14 10:18 PM
  8. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    Turnaround device? I thought the focus under John Chen would be enterprise or is it now consumer or will it next be prosumer if and when this next attempt at a so-called turnaround flops?

    Since when did a lower end, consumer-oriented device like the Jakarta become the turnaround device when the focus was supposed to be on enterprise? Or maybe it isn't enterprise any more? Is it Classic or the Q20? Or BES? Or maybe it's the Chen song and dance show beamed to every BB10 device? Is it OS7 or BB10 or BBOS10/7? Is it touchscreen or QWERTY?

    It's hard to define a turnaround when BBRY hasn't articulated or defined what the turnaround looks like. The Board, Chen and his team seem to be blindfolded and are just aimlessly feeling their way in the dark (just like Heins and his team were) hoping to find the "turnaround".

    This is the part about Chen and BBRY that just doesn't make any sense. BBRY CEOs whether it is Heins or Chen like to make all sorts of declarations about direction and strategy which are non-sensical and contradictory which only serves to confuse customers and undermines confidence on what they are supposedly trying to achieve.

    So I really don't believe that anyone can point to a turnaround device, event or milestone in the absence of a clearly articulated and coherent strategy.

    It's like asking the question "are we there yet?" Unless the person responding to that question knows where the destination is, he can easily say "yes" at any point and he could very well be lost.

    To more precisely answer your question on whether the Jakarta can be a turnaround device, the answer is depending on the price, maybe, but it had better be a more compelling purchase than the literally dozens of entry-level, consumer Android devices that are omnipresent in so-called developing markets like Indonesia with hardware specs and apps that can go up against the best of them at very low prices (just Google devices like the Xiaomi Hongmi which is a dual sim (very important in developing markets) device with an 8MP camera and a 720x1280 screen all for about US$130).
    Last edited by NYC10065; 04-05-14 at 10:38 PM.
    JeepBB, cgk, Drew808 and 3 others like this.
    04-05-14 10:25 PM
  9. badiyee's Avatar
    Turnaround device? I thought the focus under John Chen would be enterprise or is it now consumer or will it next be prosumer if and when this next attempt at a so-called turnaround flops?

    Since when did a lower end, consumer-oriented device like the Jakarta become the turnaround device when the focus was supposed to be on enterprise? Or maybe it isn't enterprise any more? Is it Classic or the Q20? Or BES? Or maybe it's the Chen song and dance show beamed to every BB10 device? Is it OS7 or BB10 or BBOS10/7? Is it touchscreen or QWERTY?

    It's hard to define a turnaround when BBRY hasn't articulated or defined what the turnaround looks like. The Board, Chen and his team seem to be blindfolded and are just aimlessly feeling their way in the dark (just like Heins and his team were) hoping to find the "turnaround".

    This is the part about Chen and BBRY that just doesn't make any sense. BBRY CEOs whether it is Heins or Chen like to make all sorts of declarations about direction and strategy which are non-sensical and contradictory which only serves to confuse customers and undermines confidence on what they are supposedly trying to achieve.

    So I really don't believe that anyone can point to a turnaround device, event or milestone in the absence of a clearly articulated and coherent strategy.

    It's like asking the questions "are we there yet?" Unless the person responding to that question knows where the destination is, he can easily say "yes" at any point and he could very well be lost.
    Did you miss the Q3 and Q4 earnings call? They did put a plan forward there.
    04-05-14 10:29 PM
  10. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    That would be nice if it were true. Unfortunately OS7 devices outsell BB10 devices by a large enough margin that the enterprise market can't come close to accounting for the disparity.
    If the Z3 is successful this won't be true. they are pushing for it throughout the month. Take a look at the BlackBerry dev blog site.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    04-05-14 10:30 PM
  11. BK_NY_RAY's Avatar
    BB just needs to let people know about their phones and features. So much people I know don't know about them and love it once I tell them and show them. Also, get the stinking apps. And price competitively. Sony was in a worse position than BB, I think, and they turned things around. What did they do? Release products consumers wanted, lowered their prices and gave the people reason to choose them over the competition.
    keypad likes this.
    04-05-14 10:40 PM
  12. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Turnaround device? I thought the focus under John Chen would be enterprise or is it now consumer or will it next be prosumer if and when this next attempt at a so-called turnaround flops?

    Since when did a lower end, consumer-oriented device like the Jakarta become the turnaround device when the focus was supposed to be on enterprise? Or maybe it isn't enterprise any more? Is it Classic or the Q20? Or BES? Or maybe it's the Chen song and dance show beamed to every BB10 device? Is it OS7 or BB10 or BBOS10/7? Is it touchscreen or QWERTY?

    It's hard to define a turnaround when BBRY hasn't articulated or defined what the turnaround looks like. The Board, Chen and his team seem to be blindfolded and are just aimlessly feeling their way in the dark (just like Heins and his team were) hoping to find the "turnaround".

    This is the part about Chen and BBRY that just doesn't make any sense. BBRY CEOs whether it is Heins or Chen like to make all sorts of declarations about direction and strategy which are non-sensical and contradictory which only serves to confuse customers and undermines confidence on what they are supposedly trying to achieve.

    So I really don't believe that anyone can point to a turnaround device, event or milestone in the absence of a clearly articulated and coherent strategy.

    It's like asking the questions "are we there yet?" Unless the person responding to that question knows where the destination is, he can easily say "yes" at any point and he could very well be lost.

    To more precisely answer your question on whether the Jakarta can be a turnaround device, the answer is depending on the price, maybe but it had better be a more compelling purchase than the literally dozens of entry-level, consumer Android devices that are omnipresent in so-called developing markets like Indonesia with hardware specs and apps that can go up against the best of them at very low prices.
    Every device is perceived to be the "turn around" device. Everybody was convinced that the Z10 would do it. Then the Q10. Then the Z30. Then the subsequent "Wait until BB10 version 10.2" then 10.2.1, now 10.3. Tomorrow it will be 10.3.x or 10.4. Unfortunately this all came about while RIM was resting on their laurels.

    BB10 actually is a very nice OS for mobile devices. Unfortunately, BB is in the same boat that Apple/Mac was in during the 80s and 90s. Too many businesses and consumers are already too ingrained into their previously chosen platform. Bill Gates himself professed that he didn't need the best OS to be successful. He merely needed to ensure that his product was so widespread that everybody depended on his company. A lesson Apple learned the hard way, but were quick to utilize when they got a good jump into the mobile market. The only company to give them a real threat being Google who jumped in just in time to be a thorn in their side, and a business model that gave them some leverage.
    04-05-14 10:50 PM
  13. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    Did you miss the Q3 and Q4 earnings call? They did put a plan forward there.
    Yup...that so-called "plan" he put forward is the source of the confusion. If you listen to Chen's various declaration before, during and after the earnings calls, there is no coherent plan.
    04-05-14 10:57 PM
  14. wincyUt's Avatar
    Yup...that so-called "plan" he put forward is the source of the confusion. If you listen to Chen's various declaration before, during and after the earnings calls, there is no coherent plan.
    Hmmmn, I wonder if all the BBRY shareholders agree with you. One fact for sure is that it's always easier said than done. There isn't a clear cut method or solution to solving BlackBerry's mess or problems with one stroke of a brush.
    04-05-14 11:09 PM
  15. aha's Avatar
    Every device is perceived to be the "turn around" device.
    Merely two or three years ago they were called "iPhone Killer".

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.2141
    bekkay and DenverRalphy like this.
    04-05-14 11:16 PM
  16. badiyee's Avatar
    Yup...that so-called "plan" he put forward is the source of the confusion. If you listen to Chen's various declaration before, during and after the earnings calls, there is no coherent plan.
    Nah. It's just you don't want to subscribe to that. After all, would it even benefit you?

    Posted via CB on BB10
    04-05-14 11:18 PM
  17. aha's Avatar
    Hmmmn, I wonder if all the BBRY shareholders agree with you. One fact for sure is that it's always easier said than done. There isn't a clear cut method or solution to solving BlackBerry's mess or problems with one stroke of a brush.
    I did remember in January Chen was talking about making sexy devices... now it became classic keyboard devices... maybe classic keyboard devices are sexy for him?

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.2141
    04-05-14 11:19 PM
  18. badiyee's Avatar
    I did remember in January Chen was talking about making sexy devices... now it became classic keyboard devices... maybe classic keyboard devices are sexy for him?

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.2141
    Sexy enoygh for the corporations who want them. Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.

    Posted via CB on BB10
    04-05-14 11:24 PM
  19. Dave Bourque's Avatar
    I did remember in January Chen was talking about making sexy devices... now it became classic keyboard devices... maybe classic keyboard devices are sexy for him?

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.2141
    There are still 4 categories of devices that hes planning to fill. Affordable, classic, high end, prestige/premium. High end would be something like a Q30 with the larger screen and no trackpad. He hasn't ruled out a another high end touch device but it doesn't seem like priority to him right now.

    Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141
    04-05-14 11:24 PM
  20. wincyUt's Avatar
    I did remember in January Chen was talking about making sexy devices... now it became classic keyboard devices... maybe classic keyboard devices are sexy for him?

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.2141
    yeah maybe classic Q20 is sexy to him. I guess no one can say that he defined what sexy meant.

    Posted via CB10
    04-05-14 11:27 PM
  21. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    Hmmmn, I wonder if all the BBRY shareholders agree with you. One fact for sure is that it's always easier said than done. There isn't a clear cut method or solution to solving BlackBerry's mess or problems with one stroke of a brush.
    Dunno where you're going with that. Last I checked... the shareholders weren't exactly thrilled.
    04-05-14 11:34 PM
  22. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    Nah. It's just you don't want to subscribe to that. After all, would it even benefit you?

    Posted via CB on BB10
    Ok, then, please clearly describe the plan for Blackberry beyond the motherhood statement of "returning BBRY to profitability". Since you seem to know what Chen wants to do, please describe in as few words as possible what that plan is, what is BBRY's focus going to be to return BBRY to profitability.
    richardat likes this.
    04-05-14 11:44 PM
  23. anon(5828343)'s Avatar
    Hmmmn, I wonder if all the BBRY shareholders agree with you. One fact for sure is that it's always easier said than done. There isn't a clear cut method or solution to solving BlackBerry's mess or problems with one stroke of a brush.
    I'm not looking for a stroke of a brush, I'm looking for a simple articulation of what it is that the plan is. I understand it will require both time and effort. But before any plan or effort can be expended, I think it would be pretty reasonable for shareholders and customers to expect some type of clearly articulated and focused plan.

    So, since we know that BBRY can't be all things to all people and needs to target its resources to ensure it makes money, perhaps we can just get a simple articulation for anyone as to what BBRY's focus will be under Chen. You seem to know what that is so please share it.
    Last edited by NYC10065; 04-06-14 at 07:36 AM.
    bekkay and richardat like this.
    04-05-14 11:47 PM
  24. badiyee's Avatar
    Ok, then, please clearly describe the plan for Blackberry beyond the motherhood statement of "returning BBRY to profitability". Since you seem to know what Chen wants to do, please describe in as few words as possible what that plan is, what is BBRY's focus going to be to return BBRY to profitability.
    Oh it's there. I subscribe to his ideas. I am not qualified to infer more. More than that is within realm of speculation.

    What bits that is repeated,
    1. Not going to make a loss for producing handsets, or the runs.
    2. The company looks to see itself into 4 segments, (but as of q3 has not qualify to be called a segment yet) where it differs from the past view of looking itself as a handset xompany.
    3. Looking into opportunities presented by expanding the 3 other segments.


    What is so difficult about that?

    You expect him to lay out a 1000000000000 page walk through like gamefaqs? Like every step by step?

    Posted via CB on BB10
    Dave Bourque likes this.
    04-06-14 12:40 AM
  25. spikesolie's Avatar
    Merely two or three years ago they were called "iPhone Killer".

    Posted via CB10 with Z30 on 10.2.1.2141
    Z10 is only a year old

    From zee coolest flicking smartphone ever
    04-06-14 01:34 AM
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