02-22-13 01:49 AM
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  1. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    There is a very easy reason that Apple and Google and BB and Microsoft want their own app stores.

    Since 2008:
    "Developers have made over seven billion dollars on the App Store"
    Developers get 70% of the sale of an app, Apple gets 30%. That means, for hosting an application to be downloaded. Apple has made $3,000,000,000. That is JUST from Apps that OTHER people have made, little to no effort on the company's part (relatively speaking).
    02-19-13 10:28 AM
  2. hurds's Avatar


    Mozillas firefox os runs on HTML5. This to me shows how advanced it is. I in no way have anything against native, it just shouldn't be the main way to make 'apps' but should be used if what you want to do with the web can't be done, or if you want the exclusivity of an app store. Web likely covers the majority of peoples app needs.

    Supporting a standard platform is good for consumers and the market. It's inevitable it'll go this way though so I don't need to argue it. Time and time again close systems lose out because they can't compete against the rapid development and evolution of open systems.
    02-19-13 11:23 AM
  3. hurds's Avatar
    I agree there are major actors for desktops people never even talk about apps. They use the browser. Which is funny considering how poorly desktop browsers perform on a lot of tests, and how little people talk about 'apps' in terms of desktop use.

    How many apps are there on the chrome OS? Can you run android apps on chrome?

    The current app advantage is largely a marketing tool.
    02-19-13 11:34 AM
  4. hurds's Avatar
    There is a very easy reason that Apple and Google and BB and Microsoft want their own app stores.

    Since 2008:


    Developers get 70% of the sale of an app, Apple gets 30%. That means, for hosting an application to be downloaded. Apple has made $3,000,000,000. That is JUST from Apps that OTHER people have made, little to no effort on the company's part (relatively speaking).

    This is a good point. Its a good way to monetize the web. Native doesn't even need to be better or developed faster, its closed nature and running apps which could have easily been web accessible is a way to make money that isn't there to the companies in a open browser.
    02-19-13 11:40 AM
  5. mikeo007's Avatar
    @mike007

    re-posted:
    What apps have you made so I can check them out? Any for ios? What type of things can you do with native in your apps you couldn't do with the web? These would be much better arguments than labelling me as a BB fanboy (which I agree I am, they are just doing some amazing stuff no one else is). Have you seen BB10 ability to use the camera with HTML5 and have you seen bb10s HTML5 rating? pretty impressive. Do you think you cant do things with BB10 natively you cant do with the browser? What type of apps do you use/make that do not require an internet connection? Have you gone to the stub hub website on an iOS device?


    Safari has a pretty bad HTML5 score. I thought Apple wanted to push HTML5. Could they have been lying? Because I can't imagine HTML5s emergence could be a good thing for their app store.

    Edit:

    @superfly

    You pointed out web browsers used on desktops. I dont think this is really relevant here. I presume all the app developers here develop for mobile. This would have been a much better comparison and as you likely know most mobile platforms are near 400. Mobile is the future.

    http://html5test.com/results/mobile.html
    This post is extremely garbled so I'll try to sort it out as best I can...

    I will not direct you to any of my apps for other platforms. Firstly, this is a blackberry site. Secondly, I've developed for various companies. Thirdly, I don't want crackberry trolls all over the reviews.

    I've already given multiple examples of things possible in native (or even webworks) that aren't possible with a browser alone. You keep asking the question but don't bother reading the answers.

    In regards to the rest of your questions, use your brain...come on. What kind of apps don't require Internet connection? Anything that doesn't need constant connectivity to the net. I think you're smart enough to come up with some examples.

    HTML5 scores, as stated on so many occasions, mean nothing when they're rating obscure features. BB10's browser fails miserably at some of the features that they claim to implement on the HTML5 test. The entire test is just silly. It doesn't even test the features, just tests if the browser reports them as available. Then it assigns an arbitrary score to the features and comes up with an arbitrary browser score as a result.

    It almost seems like you just want everything to be on a web page because then it doesn't cost you anything.
    That would be the biggest problem for me with deploying apps on the web. No established system for monetary gain.
    Last edited by mikeo007; 02-19-13 at 01:28 PM.
    02-19-13 01:13 PM
  6. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    HTML5 scores, as stated on so many occasions, mean nothing when they're rating obscure features. BB10's browser fails miserably at some of the features that they claim to implement on the HTML5 test. The entire test is just silly. It doesn't even test the features, just tests if the browser reports them as available. Then it assigns an arbitrary score to the features and comes up with an arbitrary browser score as a result.
    You have to be more specific ... what feature do you pretend being false positive in BB10 browser
    02-19-13 01:30 PM
  7. mikeo007's Avatar
    You have to be more specific ... what feature do you pretend being false positive in BB10 browser
    Pretend? Not sure what you mean there...

    WebGL would be the easiest to find false-positive in my books. The implementation is laughable. Very poor compared to other browsers that claim the same level of support.
    02-19-13 01:34 PM
  8. Semi5's Avatar
    The trend certainly seems to be going the other way. Just look at Facebook. They seemed to abandon their html5 efforts to go full native code on Android and iOS. Using an iPhone as my primary device (for now), I certainly always choose to use the native app over a web app when available. The experience is always better, there are usually far more features, and the integration into the OS is more apparent. Maybe this will change one day, but for now, I would be hard pressed to find just one web app that is superior to a native version of its app.
    02-19-13 02:55 PM
  9. mathking606's Avatar
    Pretend? Not sure what you mean there...

    WebGL would be the easiest to find false-positive in my books. The implementation is laughable. Very poor compared to other browsers that claim the same level of support.
    Who said it had an amazing webGL support? The difference is that the browser is still very good at a lot of things.
    02-19-13 03:18 PM
  10. dentynefire's Avatar
    ^^ checkout fastbook Fastbook they set out to prove that FB could have used HTML5.

    Whatever Facebooks reason for not using HTML 5 it likely isn't due to HTML 5 performance. Maybe they didn't have the right people or maybe Apples browser just wasn't up to it (it doesn't do well on Facebooks ring test). I don't care but I wouldn't be surprised to see Apple move slowly on HTML 5 support to make it seem less important.
    02-19-13 03:20 PM
  11. recompile's Avatar
    WebGL would be the easiest to find false-positive in my books. The implementation is laughable. Very poor compared to other browsers that claim the same level of support.
    My experience is completely opposite. I've found WebGL support on the PlayBook to be ahead of the pack. Did it magically get worse on BB10? You're going to need to offer some details as to why you find it "laughable". Be sure to compare and contrast with other mobile browsers.

    Now, there are some actual problems. (Again, I'm basing this on the PB, not on BB10). For example, there's an irritating bug with the audio tag that happens when using short audio clips. I'm sure I could think of a few others, but it hardly "fails miserably" at what it claims to support.

    Sorry, Mike, I can't back you up on this one.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    02-19-13 04:26 PM
  12. mikeo007's Avatar
    Who said it had an amazing webGL support? The difference is that the browser is still very good at a lot of things.
    You completely missed the point. Read the whole discussion before making an out of place comment.

    The browser scores full marks for webgl support, when it in fact has poor support.
    02-19-13 04:27 PM
  13. mikeo007's Avatar
    My experience is completely opposite. I've found WebGL support on the PlayBook to be ahead of the pack. Did it magically get worse on BB10? You're going to need to offer some details as to why you find it "laughable". Be sure to compare and contrast with other mobile browsers.

    Now, there are some actual problems. (Again, I'm basing this on the PB, not on BB10). For example, there's an irritating bug with the audio tag that happens when using short audio clips. I'm sure I could think of a few others, but it hardly "fails miserably" at what it claims to support.

    Sorry, Mike, I can't back you up on this one.
    I was speaking directly to the fact that the HTML5 test simply assigns arbitrary numbers and should not be treated with as much reverence as people around here do. BB10 has the same WebGL score as Chrome. Yet the performance is strikingly different between the two.

    I've found many examples of more advanced WebGL that just chokes BB's browser. I've posted some in threads around here as well as on Blackberry's own forums.
    02-19-13 04:39 PM
  14. recompile's Avatar
    The browser scores full marks for webgl support, when it in fact has poor support.
    Again, you're going to need some details here. I haven't found WebGL support to be "poor" at all. I've used it in several apps without encountering any of your as-yet-unnamed limitations.
    02-19-13 04:40 PM
  15. mikeo007's Avatar
    Again, you're going to need some details here. I haven't found WebGL support to be "poor" at all. I've used it in several apps without encountering any of your as-yet-unnamed limitations.
    Try some voxel.js samples. Most do not even run on the BB browser.

    Try any of Mozilla's experiments. Run perfectly in chrome, most crash the BB browser or just fail to do anything.
    02-19-13 04:47 PM
  16. recompile's Avatar
    I was speaking directly to the fact that the HTML5 test simply assigns arbitrary numbers and should not be treated with as much reverence as people around here do. BB10 has the same WebGL score as Chrome. Yet the performance is strikingly different between the two.
    I see. You're comparing a modern desktop with desktop graphics hardware to a mobile device with mobile graphics hardware and complaining about performance.

    So ... what features aren't supported? As far as I can tell anisotropic filtering (an extension recently added to Chrome) and getShaderPrecisionFormat (also recently added to Chrome). Not exactly very helpful to your case!

    Now, how do other mobile browsers stack up?

    I'm going to go ahead and say that WebGL support isn't poor, like you're claiming here. It's good on the PlayBook. I have absolutely no reason to suspect that it's somehow worse on BB10.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    02-19-13 04:59 PM
  17. mikeo007's Avatar
    I see. You're comparing a modern desktop with desktop graphics hardware to a mobile device with mobile graphics hardware and complaining about performance.

    So ... what features aren't supported? As far as I can tell anisotropic filtering (an extension recently added to Chrome) and getShaderPrecisionFormat (also recently added to Chrome). Not exactly very helpful to your case!

    Now, how do other mobile browsers stack up?

    I'm going to go ahead and say that WebGL support isn't poor, like you're claiming here. It's good on the PlayBook. I have absolutely no reason to suspect that it's somehow worse on BB10.
    I'm sick of restating the exact same thing over and over. My argument is about the HTML5 test. It assigns the same score for webgl to chrome desktop and BB10 mobile browsers. You admit they're not the same calibre, so why should they achieve the same scores?
    02-19-13 05:03 PM
  18. recompile's Avatar
    Try some voxel.js samples. Most do not even run on the BB browser.
    Why is it so hard to get specifics out of you?

    Some voxel.js samples don't run because they use an older version of three.js that ... get this ... doesn't check for getShaderPrecisionFormat. (Web inspector is your friend.) Try running them with the latest release of three.js.

    What you're ultimately telling me is that you don't actually know what WebGL features aren't supported and decided that it must be poor because some examples you found online wouldn't run?

    Having actually used WebGL and not encountered anything that would make me think that the PB has poor support, I can only conclude that WebGL support on the PB is just fine. I have no reason to believe that it support would magically get worse on BB10.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    02-19-13 05:08 PM
  19. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    I'm sick of restating the exact same thing over and over. My argument is about the HTML5 test. It assigns the same score for webgl to chrome desktop and BB10 mobile browsers. You admit they're not the same calibre, so why should they achieve the same scores?
    Run chrome desktop on a similar hardware configuration than Z10 and you'll know why; I believe this is what recompile is pointing out.
    recompile likes this.
    02-22-13 01:49 AM
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