03-21-14 07:35 PM
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  1. Rob1's Avatar
    If BB truly wanted a cross platform chat app - why did they not include Windows Phone? Whatsapp is available on all...
    09-09-13 07:46 PM
  2. RoverSpitfire's Avatar
    Wow. A whole lot of comments from folks that have only used one or the other. Everyone's experience is different too based on demographics such as geography and age.

    Myself I've used SMS, BBM, iMessage, and What's App extensively. I currently use a Z10 for work (iPhone for personal, plus iPads and Macs galore), and my wife has a Q10 as her personal device. Here's my shot from the peanut gallery.

    SMS
    Pros - Truly universal for phones. Reliable.
    Cons - Short, slow, cost beyond data, consumes more battery power.

    BBM
    Pros - The first real mobile instant messaging system, D&R, nice interface, low power use, on BB the text, voice, video and screen share work well and are all in one place, groups are handy.
    Cons - On a platform I know only a handful of contacts on, limited emoticons

    What's App:
    Pros - Cross-platform, ability to send location, confirmation of delivery
    Cons - phones only, reveals mobile number, UI is crap, no confirmation of read status, of people I know even fewer use it than BBM (affluent, middle-aged, white, Anglo, male, Canadian)

    iMessage:
    Pros - Conversations are continuously synched on my phone, tablet and computer, delivery and read status, low power consumption, picture and video attachments, majority of people I know use iPhones, during outages automatically switches back to SMS, does do group chats.
    Cons - Video is a separate app (Facetime), no screen share, cross-platform would be nice (I do know some folks on Android plus the handful of BB users), there have been some outages.

    I really enjoyed iMessage when my wife was on an iPhone as well. We both also have mobile-enabled iPads, so the 'one conversation everywhere' model was very convenient.

    We both have BB10's now, and BBM is my favourite thing about the devices and the OS. I like having profile pictures. I like the D&R better than the iMessage equivalent (that is turned off be default). It would be the best logical cross-platform choice once it's out. Ironically, having it cross-platform makes it even easier for my wife to switch back to iPhone.

    Will iPhone users use BBM? Likely. People will download just about anything for free. The trick is, will enough of their friends also download it to make it worthwhile? The good news is that once someone downloads BBM, they will not likely uninstall it later so the road to reaching critical mass can build over time, it doesn't have to happen in the first weekend.

    My request for BlackBerry: I want to have a single conversation, in BBM, across all my devices including my desktop and laptop. If BBM could do that, I'd choose it over iMessage.
    09-09-13 07:48 PM
  3. donnation's Avatar
    That has actually been mentioned already, and is a cool feature for iMessage...but BBM will be syncing across smartphones...and I am sure people use iMessage on iPad and Mac...I have a Mac and I NEVER ever use iMessage even though I have so many friends that have iPhones. People just don't care to message like that from a tablet or computer when it's on your phone.

    Don't get me wrong or take what I said the wrong way because I am sure there are TONS of people who use iMessage via iPad and Mac, but lets be honest here...the mass majority of people actually messaging via iMessage will use it on their iPhone. I know many people with an iPhone, an iPad and a Mac, and when they are on their computers doing work and an iMessage comes in, they will instantly and without thought go to their iPhone...not their iMessage app on their computer. I think this is common between many people.

    So as multiple devices are a great feature and looks great on paper...its not as widely used.
    I guess it depends on the person. I know people who are the opposite and love having the messages come across all their devices. I use iMessage on my Mac and iPad and love that it syncs between both. That's why so many people wanted BBM on their Playbooks because its great having it sync across both devices. But your point is taken and I'm sure there are people who don't use it at all except for on their phone.
    mphillips828 likes this.
    09-09-13 07:49 PM
  4. mphillips828's Avatar
    That's a completely broken idea then.

    iMessage works across platforms because if someone doesn't have an Apple device, it will just drop down to SMS and send that way... So it will get the message to whoever I am sending one to regardless of what device are using. The reverse is also true - they don't have to be running iMessage to get a text to me.

    BBM won't do this... and it would also require me to ask ALL the people I message if they have downloaded BBM. What am I supposed to do - request they download proprietary software that is only useful for chatting with me alone??? No i don't think so...
    How is it a broken idea? Unless every single person in the world uses an Apple product, the idea makes complete sense. Is Netflix being on multiple platforms a broken idea then?

    iMessage will drop to SMS is the person doesn't have iMessage or if iMessage is down at that time, but what if you have your best friends on different devices (android, BB and iPhone) and you want to chat with them all. iMessage can't do that...so you text them all individually or in a SMS Group? Sure that can work...but then you get their replies in individual messages directly from them and other's cant see what other people are saying...BBM Groups, you add them all, you can all chat together within the same chat to discuss your plans for the weekend, and create a list so everyone knows what to bring, and create and event time with reminder so that everyone in the group gets the reminder that at 5:00pm we are all meeting at John's house...

    iMessage can not do that...and I do not think that is a broken idea, sounds like a powerful communication method to me
    09-09-13 07:49 PM
  5. jtfolden's Avatar
    We should not over exaggerate iMessage by any means. It doesn't play a role how many user iMessage has; iMessage as a whole doesn't play ANY role. Just because it's an iPhone stock functionality that gets automatically activated through the SMS without people even recognizing it. No one will buy an iPhone for iMessage and no one will stick with his iPhone for iMessage, it's just there.
    Actually, that's not true... I've had more than one Android phone but one of the reasons that I broke down and bought an iPhone is because of iMessage. It's delivery/receipt notifications were very desirable to me given that most of the people I was texting were also iPhone users... and for those that aren't there's still SMS. It was a positive for me, my Apple device using friends and completely transparent to everyone else.

    iMessage is iPhone to iPhone only
    No it isn't... It's iPhone to iPod to Mac to iPad and as normal SMS to everyone else.
    09-09-13 07:51 PM
  6. jtfolden's Avatar
    How is it a broken idea? Unless every single person in the world uses an Apple product, the idea makes complete sense. Is Netflix being on multiple platforms a broken idea then?
    It's a broken idea because there will never be a case where EVERYONE has BBM. iMessage works if I want to send to ANY modern device that accepts text message, seamlessly and without the sender or receiver having to do anything special.

    BBM Groups, you add them all, you can all chat together within the same chat to discuss your plans for the weekend, and create a list so everyone knows what to bring, and create and event time with reminder so that everyone in the group gets the reminder that at 5:00pm we are all meeting at John's house...
    ...but everyone I chat with doesn't have BBM and they never will... Even if I could convince them, what about my Windows Phone using friends? Where's BBM for them? So it's a wonderful theory but the idea is broken when you attempt to reply it to reality. How do I include all the people in a BBM chat if they don't/can't have BBM?

    and I do not think that is a broken idea, sounds like a powerful communication method to me
    It's a broken idea until I can use it in the ways you mention as seamlessly as I use iMessage now. BBM has several hurdles against it and some of them are insurmountable.
    richardat likes this.
    09-09-13 07:57 PM
  7. mphillips828's Avatar
    It's a broken idea because there will never be a case where EVERYONE has BBM. iMessage works if I want to send to ANY modern device that accepts text message, seamlessly and without the sender or receiver having to do anything special.



    ...but everyone I chat with doesn't have BBM and they never will... Even if I could convince them, what about my Windows Phone using friends? Where's BBM for them? So it's a wonderful theory but the idea is broken when you attempt to reply it to reality. How do I include all the people in a BBM chat if they don't/can't have BBM?



    It's a broken idea until I can use it in the ways you mention as seamlessly as I use iMessage now. BBM has several hurdles against it and some of them are insurmountable.
    For any friends that don't have BBM (mainly Windows Phone Users) at the beginning they will have to rely on getting SMS, or maybe they will get a BB10 Device lol...but honestly if 1 out of every 20 people have a windows phone...that to start would not be cutting out a huge market...BBM will be on the main platforms to start. So instead of sending texts to people...for the lets say 19/20 people who have iPhone, Android or BB devices, you can create the groups and make it work...and just text the other persons separately.

    Also iMessage can't be sent to every device...you need to get people's numbers and add them to your device...BBM if you get added to a group you may only know one person there but work with the other 5 people, and you don't need to bother getting numbers or anything, you can just chat via the group chat over BBM. iMessage requires you having their phone number...or contact information. Also iMessage doesn't work with "ANY modern device"(as you said it does)...it works with iOS and Mac's...thats only one company out of ALL the modern devices out there...

    So with BBM you can have chats with iPhone, Android and BB...but with iMessage you can only chat with Apple users...so wouldn't BBM be connecting to more Modern Devices, since it will be able to be used by the new iPhone 5s, 5c, Samsung Galaxy s4, Z10, Q10, HTC One...lol the list could continue based on Android devices
    09-09-13 08:26 PM
  8. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    Actually, that's not true... I've had more than one Android phone but one of the reasons that I broke down and bought an iPhone is because of iMessage. It's delivery/receipt notifications were very desirable to me given that most of the people I was texting were also iPhone users... and for those that aren't there's still SMS. It was a positive for me, my Apple device using friends and completely transparent to everyone else.



    No it isn't... It's iPhone to iPod to Mac to iPad and as normal SMS to everyone else.
    People please, get out of your nerds bubbles. See the big picture here.

    I do know that iMessage is iOS to iOS only rather than iPhone to iPhone only, but that won't change anything. We talk global here. And fact is that globally, as opposed to US only where the iPhone has a marketshare somewhere between 40 and 50% (if not over 50%), the iPhone has a marketshare of 13% and boy, it is declining. And now take into account that likely many of those iPhone users don't even have an additional iOS device. By far not all of those 13% have an iPad, a Mac and iPods backing up their home ecosystems. iMessage as a platform factor doesn't play any role on a global scale and as long as it's iOS/Mac exclusive that won't change. So, instead of wasting time discussing iMessage, could we please concentrate on the real messaging competition?

    Posted via CB10
    09-09-13 08:30 PM
  9. jtfolden's Avatar
    For any friends that don't have BBM (mainly Windows Phone Users) at the beginning they will have to rely on getting SMS, or maybe they will get a BB10 Device lol...but honestly if 1 out of every 20 people have a windows phone...that to start would not be cutting out a huge market...BBM will be on the main platforms to start. So instead of sending texts to people...for the lets say 19/20 people who have iPhone, Android or BB devices, you can create the groups and make it work...and just text the other persons separately.
    Again, you are forgetting something... It's not a matter of having 19 out of 20 people on a supported platform. Those 19 people MUST download BBM to even make your scenario work...

    But you're telling me to send some messages through BBM and now to send another set of messages normal text in a different app. So, now you've got me using two different apps and this is supposed to be better for everyone, let alone myself???? ...and I have to remember which contact uses which app and then keep duplicated contact data. This sounds very broken.

    Also iMessage can't be sent to every device...
    I can use iMessage to send to any device... it may be dumbed down to SMS depending on the software at the other end but it's completely transparent to both parties. They receive the message and I receive the reply and life goes very smoothly. I don't need to download a second app (nor do they) to communicate.

    you need to get people's numbers and add them to your device...BBM if you get added to a group you may only know one person there but work with the other 5 people, and you don't need to bother getting numbers or anything, you can just chat via the group chat over BBM.
    Ummm... if someone starts a group message in iMessage then all the groups numbers are listed there. I reply and it goes back to all of those people, as well. I don't need to hunt down the numbers of the other participants, I don't need to add them, etc... it just works.

    Newer Android phones support group SMS, too... so it's only older devices that would have trouble with group chat.

    Also iMessage doesn't work with "ANY modern device"(as you said it does)...it works with iOS and Mac's...thats only one company out of ALL the modern devices out there...
    As far as my usage, it does... as I said, it dumbs down to SMS for some recipients but it works when I want to send a message to ANYONE capable of receiving text messages. I don't have to worry if they have BBM on the other end or ask them to download it for duplicated functionality.

    So with BBM you can have chats with iPhone, Android and BB...
    Incorrect. You can ONLY have chats with iPhone and Android users if they purposely download BBM and use it... and as you've already highlighted, the best case scenario is that I would have to send some messages via BBM and then others via text/iMessage. Why would I do this again????

    but with iMessage you can only chat with Apple users...
    No with iMessages I can chat with iOS, Android, BB, webOS, dumb phones, etc... whether the transport used is iMessage or SMS is irrelevant. I get the job done communicating with EVERYONE and no one needs to download anything new.

    so wouldn't BBM be connecting to more Modern Devices, since it will be able to be used by the new iPhone 5s, 5c, Samsung Galaxy s4, Z10, Q10, HTC One...lol the list could continue based on Android devices
    Until BBM can be used to send messages to everyone that doesn't have BBM or until the day that BBM support is automatically integrated into every device shipped, then NO. I'm not going to ask all my friends, family, and work associates to download a separate app JUST to chat with ME. No matter how great BBM is, if it can't be used to send messages to EVERYONE at once then it's a step back... It's like the early 90's and having to use AIM for some people and ICQ for others, etc...

    If I could install BBM and use it just like I use iMessage then that would be one thing but you've already illustrated why I can't. I'm sure BBM will be useful and gain traction in specific areas butit's only real chance is to gain ground among people that are already using a 3rd party app for specific reasons.
    richardat, 21stNow and gogurt48 like this.
    09-09-13 08:49 PM
  10. Eric Ton's Avatar
    how many should downloaded it in a weekend then??
    giving the massive number of android users - 900,000,000 with ~61.2% using Android 4.0 and above, 100,000 can't be an impressive number
    http://opensignal.com/reports/fragmentation-2013/
    http://gigaom.com/2013/05/15/google-...ces-activated/
    09-09-13 09:05 PM
  11. --TommesJay--'s Avatar
    but its only real chance is to gain ground among people that are already using a 3rd party app for specific reasons.
    That's good news then since the vast majority of global smartphone users already uses a 3rd party app for that (if not several).



    Posted via CB10
    09-09-13 09:07 PM
  12. Sandy Sprong's Avatar
    Just texting? You should really check out all that BBM has to offer. BBM doesn't promise..it delivers, as iOS and Android users are about to find out.
    joe_23 likes this.
    09-09-13 09:14 PM
  13. badiyee's Avatar
    at this point, naming BBM as "declining" is kinda troll-ish. Here's why.

    1. BBM isn't even out for iOS and Android, therefore its not yet cross-platform, and therefore as a cross platform users, its zero.

    2. The current BBM for legacy OS still requires BIS. Assuming there are 60m subscribers, then we'll have 60m users. activated handsets does not equal to subscribers. For BBM as a cross platform app, this isn't counted as 60M, assuming it launches. its still zero.

    3. i havent' seen an app. no matter how terrible, in google play store to go from 0 to negatives. so calling BBM as declining? yeah. i don't even see how zero can turn into negative.



    Sent from my BlackBerry 9800 using Tapatalk
    09-09-13 09:19 PM
  14. Sandy Sprong's Avatar
    You must have a very small group of friends.
    09-09-13 09:20 PM
  15. nnik's Avatar
    ....just a small -but important- point, with a bb10 device you do not need to access your pc with bbm, you can do it way more efficiently with remote file access and actually transfer files back and forth, with iphone (unless its jailbroke) you cant even load files
    09-09-13 09:29 PM
  16. Sandy Sprong's Avatar
    i agree, people are overlooking the convenience factor and easy factor of iMessage, pretty sure most iMessage users won't bother using another chat app, if if they do need video/voice, facetime/skype/yahoo/hangout will be their first priority
    Until of course they realize they can do it all with one app, and more.
    mphillips828 likes this.
    09-09-13 09:31 PM
  17. Bsbudd's Avatar
    Over the years I've purchased many Apple devices personally, for my company and employees and never really used iMessage. Perhaps is just personal taste.

    I must be getting old. I probably don't use half the features a messenger client offers and I bet the majority of people are like me. Sending message, a photo/video and a smiley.

    I will use the messenger client my friends use. At the moment everybody including my iphone friends use whatsapp. I travel extensively because of my work and I don't know anybody who uses an Blackberry device, except my friends in Indonesia who have an old Blackberry and also an Android/Windows or iPhone. All of them are on Whatsapp and lately Wechat.

    Will I try BBM? Sure. Will I recommend it? No, unless the majority of my friends are using it. Do I care what messenger has what market share? No.
    09-09-13 09:39 PM
  18. Sandy Sprong's Avatar
    What happens to BBM if Apple and Google incorporate some if not all of the features you deem make BBM superior?

    Google is the most likely to respond quickly.

    Integrated OS apps are hard to overcome.
    But will they be cross-platform?
    09-09-13 09:39 PM
  19. mphillips828's Avatar
    Again, you are forgetting something... It's not a matter of having 19 out of 20 people on a supported platform. Those 19 people MUST download BBM to even make your scenario work...

    But you're telling me to send some messages through BBM and now to send another set of messages normal text in a different app. So, now you've got me using two different apps and this is supposed to be better for everyone, let alone myself???? ...and I have to remember which contact uses which app and then keep duplicated contact data. This sounds very broken.



    I can use iMessage to send to any device... it may be dumbed down to SMS depending on the software at the other end but it's completely transparent to both parties. They receive the message and I receive the reply and life goes very smoothly. I don't need to download a second app (nor do they) to communicate.



    Ummm... if someone starts a group message in iMessage then all the groups numbers are listed there. I reply and it goes back to all of those people, as well. I don't need to hunt down the numbers of the other participants, I don't need to add them, etc... it just works.

    Newer Android phones support group SMS, too... so it's only older devices that would have trouble with group chat.



    As far as my usage, it does... as I said, it dumbs down to SMS for some recipients but it works when I want to send a message to ANYONE capable of receiving text messages. I don't have to worry if they have BBM on the other end or ask them to download it for duplicated functionality.



    Incorrect. You can ONLY have chats with iPhone and Android users if they purposely download BBM and use it... and as you've already highlighted, the best case scenario is that I would have to send some messages via BBM and then others via text/iMessage. Why would I do this again????



    No with iMessages I can chat with iOS, Android, BB, webOS, dumb phones, etc... whether the transport used is iMessage or SMS is irrelevant. I get the job done communicating with EVERYONE and no one needs to download anything new.



    Until BBM can be used to send messages to everyone that doesn't have BBM or until the day that BBM support is automatically integrated into every device shipped, then NO. I'm not going to ask all my friends, family, and work associates to download a separate app JUST to chat with ME. No matter how great BBM is, if it can't be used to send messages to EVERYONE at once then it's a step back... It's like the early 90's and having to use AIM for some people and ICQ for others, etc...

    If I could install BBM and use it just like I use iMessage then that would be one thing but you've already illustrated why I can't. I'm sure BBM will be useful and gain traction in specific areas butit's only real chance is to gain ground among people that are already using a 3rd party app for specific reasons.
    Your biggest point isn't even iMessage...your talking about SMS...if iMessage goes down or someone doesn't have iMessage it sends a text...well yes it does send a text but you no longer are using the iMessage feature...and thats what this thread is discussing...iMessage vs. BBM...if a blackberry user wanted they could just SMS everyone, and so could android users and iphone users and windows users...there is a reason Whatsapp and these cross platform messaging solutions are so popular...and why people would rather use BBM or Whatsapp over texting people, but yes texting is reliable because every phone has it!

    But I am not saying you have to start sending two messages to bbm and sms...if none of YOUR friends have BBM then good for you...I said earlier in this thread if BBM or Whatsapp isn't for you and your friends, then thats fine. Use what works best for you in YOUR life. So in your scenario iMessage works better for you because it sends to iPhone people and then just texts other people...but there are a lot of people who would love to have BBM, and since BBM is so powerful the more people will download it, and then ultimately everyone will be using BBM anyways, so then you wouldn't need to text or anything, you just go to BBM.

    Also yes for my scenario to work 19/20 people would need to download a FREE APPLICATION...but if you want to text then people can just text people...for your iMessage to work people need to purchase a super expensive device to use it. The more likely scenario is that people already have Android or iPhones, and those who have Windows phone are SOL for the time being...if 15 of my friends go to BBM then lets say 5 don't...I create a group and those other 5 people have iPhones and Androids...I send them the link to download the FREE APPLICATION and they install it (seeing as its FREE) and now all 20 people are using BBM and they love it because of the added features over iMessage and SMS, and you can create a much better messaging experience.

    If you or anyone ever use more than just one of the following: FaceBook chat, Whatsapp, SMS, iMessage, BBM, KiK, Google Hangouts, etc., then your solution is broken (according to you)...Sadly the solution is going to be broken no matter what as not 100% of people in the world will use the same messaging platform. Some will use FaceBook Chat, others like BBM, others like iMessage...if I like BBM, but others don't have it then its broken, if YOU like iMessage but others don't have iPhones then it converts to a text and thats a broken solution. FaceBook Chat many people use, but then other's dont and then you have to go to using another application.

    Not everyone has an iPhone to use iMessage, and because YOU don't care to SMS, a lot of people out there love the more feature-rich applications like BBM and Whatsapp over SMS...so it is transparent for iPhone users, but for the MASSIVE amount of people who don't have iPhones, then the SMS might not be the most efficient method. You might not care, but they might rather use Whatsapp or BBM.

    Again though, iMessage cannot ABSOLUTELY cannot be used to talk to any other device outside of Apple products...if you message someone with Android, it is just a SMS...not iMessage, doesn't matter if its seamless integration and you don't realize whether its text or iMessage...point is, ITS NOT iMESSAGE, its SMS. iMessage is a feature, and SMS is a feature...its not the same thing they just integrated them together, but you can't say iMessage is SMS or SMS is iMessage. Any phone can SMS any other phone...BB10 has all communications in the HUB and thats just as efficient as iMessage switching between SMS and iMessage...ill have my BBM right above a SMS.

    Also, you may not want to use BBM, but your friends, work colleagues, family who may have used BlackBerry in the past may want to go back to BBM and use that. What will you do when 50% of your friends, family, work colleagues are on BBM and out of the other 50%, 25% are on iPhones, and 25% are on Android. So you can only iMessage 25% of people as 50% are using BBM, and the other 25% will be text messages since they are on android...if you go to BBM then others will and soon you will have all 100% on BBM. (This may not be specific to you, but could happen with many people in the world who miss their BBM, and will gladly return to it as their daily messaging driver)

    Finally...again to the iMessage AWESOME solution you talk about...you may not notice the break, but to the receiver they have to use their SMS App, and then they may also use Whatsapp to talk to others using Whatsapp. So they have to open their Text Messaging, read and reply, then close and open Whatsapp to read and reply to someone else's message. So it kind of sounds selfish to say its seamless and awesome, because you are just thinking about your experience on your iPhone, and not realizing that people on other devices will be getting texts, but Whatsapp or BBM are on iPhone, Android and BlackBerry so everyone could just use that single app and never need to rely on SMS again, where BBM has more features people would like.
    09-09-13 09:48 PM
  20. Sandy Sprong's Avatar
    I think the OP is frustrated at how people won't try BBM because they think it's the same as iMessage, hence the explanation and rant. :P
    How can the OP be frustrated about people (other than BB users) not wanting to try BBM if its not even available yet. I have many friends, associates, colleagues, business partners that are iPhone users that definitely do not think that BBM is the same as iMessage, and can't wait to download BBM. What stats do you have on how many people won't try BBM and how many think its the same as iMessage? References please.
    09-09-13 09:58 PM
  21. jtfolden's Avatar
    ....just a small -but important- point, with a bb10 device you do not need to access your pc with bbm, you can do it way more efficiently with remote file access and actually transfer files back and forth, with iphone (unless its jailbroke) you cant even load files
    Eh? How is that important to cross-platform compatibility or a feature that would improve the pick-up on iOS or Android devices. Also, there are options for similar access for both iOS and Android
    09-09-13 10:00 PM
  22. Coachbulldog's Avatar
    I left BlackBerry for iPhone two years ago and as things stand now I don't see myself going back to a BlackBerry device in the near future. However, I agree with much of what the OP said about BBM and I plan on downloading it the day it is available in the App Store. Looking forward to using it again!
    09-09-13 10:06 PM
  23. jtfolden's Avatar
    Until of course they realize they can do it all with one app, and more.
    That sounds like a marketing line... how do you suddenly have 100% of people running BBM so they can do it all with one app?
    09-09-13 10:06 PM
  24. jtfolden's Avatar
    That's good news then since the vast majority of global smartphone users already uses a 3rd party app for that (if not several).
    Do they? Research firm Mobidia recently released a report that indicated actual, active user engagement of third party apps is not nearly as high as the downloads themselves would indicate. Supposed king of the third party apps, WhatsApp might reach as high as 40% of smartphone users in Brazil but well below 20% in China and 10% in the US.

    Just as most BB fans have been arguing in these forums for months, people download a lot of apps but don't end up using them.
    09-09-13 10:11 PM
  25. Sandy Sprong's Avatar
    sigh..more misinformation
    iMessage IS encrypted
    The US DND will allow iPhone as a BYOD on their general purpose in-house servers but not on their security servers. Only Blackberry devices are allowed on those. Why is that do you think? You can look it up.
    09-09-13 10:11 PM
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