02-27-16 02:08 PM
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  1. sorinv's Avatar
    I don't take it as an insult. The ads were nowhere around me and that's the truth. If they were for others, great. I live just outside Montreal and I got a Z10 (2 1/2 years ago) and then a Z30 (1 1/2 years ago). Both phones were not in stock with Bell and I had to have them ordered. My Bell store tried to dissuade me from getting a BlackBerry phone.

    That's just my experience. No rights, no wrongs. So in some areas they made an effort it would seem. I still say that it was pitiful at best. IMO
    My experience was the same with Rogers in Toronto.
    So you can imagine the rest of the world. There was some advertizing for z10 on TV and newspapers, but none of the Canadian carriers in their stores encouraged me to buy a z10 in Feb 2013 (I had checked 4-5 stores in downtown toronto, none would sell unlock) and in November 2013 with z30.
    They had to be ordered on line and had long delays. In the stores, everyone tried to sell you an iphone or a Samsung. The only way I would shut them up in 2013 was to show them BBC World News streaming live on my playbook and Z10 and ask them to prove to me that any android tablet or phone could do the same without flash...
    At that time nobody was streaming live TV to their phone...
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    02-12-16 01:38 AM
  2. idssteve's Avatar
    What ever marketing BB did for BB10, certainly didn't reach me. Nor any of my 26 coworkers, management, IT, extended company, etc. Nor any of our family members that we're aware of. Nor any one else that we're aware of.

    We heard about BB10 & devices on these forums. Period. Everyone I know and talk to can recite Apple & Droid adds. Outside of forum exposure or word of mouth, NO one that I know, or even talked with in passing, knows BB ever released BB10, or anything new in recent years. The ONLY message they've gotten has been "BlackBerry is dead, you want Droid" mantra from Carrier stores, AFAIK. What ever marketing they did, utterly failed to reach MY corners of the enterprise universe. FWIW.

    Of course, better marketing might have merely aggravated the device return rate so...
    02-12-16 05:27 AM
  3. markmall's Avatar
    No one knows BB10 ever existed. Ask a "pro user" of smartphones. He will have no idea what you are talking about.

    Public knowledge that you exist is a sine non qua of sales.
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    02-12-16 05:53 AM
  4. eshropshire's Avatar
    Your description of how things happened is correct.
    The only problem was that Chen and the new board, after concluding like you that BlackBerry could not execute BB10 on time, decided to abandon even those BlackBerry users who did make the move to BB10.
    Chen and the board deluded themselves thinking that half of those very same people who could not develop bB10 faster than 3-4 years, were going to execute spectacularly on yet another OS, be it android.
    Chen has not solved any of the technical problems.
    He has cut costs and sold for PROFIT (making his books look better) the written off parts which Heins did not sell.
    Chen has no technical vision and changed his message several times. Enough to drive everyone away, even me who have stayed with BlackBerry for patriotic reasons and to avoid Google and Apple.
    Wow, you describe the release of the Passport, Classic and Leap, and the spending millions to develop BB10 2.x and 3.x as giving up on BB10? All of this activity was very expensive. Yes, BB did not start any print add campaign. Probably smart since who would they target. Instead BB directed their marketing budget towards PR, getting reviews of the products and getting Analysts talking about BlackBerry. Corporate leaders do not pay attention to marketing, they do pay attention to what Gartner, IDC and others are saying. Chen and company have done an amazing job getting BlackBerry talked about in some positive articles. The press actually views Chen and an important person to ask about the future of mobile technology. He is often quoted in general articles about mobile technology. No CEO of BlackBerry has been viewed like this for over 5 years. If you have never worked with press and analysts then you don't know how expensive this type of coverage is for a company like BlackBerry.

    I don't believe Chen gave up on BB10 until early 2015. Several factors played in the decision to adopt Android. One of the biggest is Qualcomm refusal to develop any new drivers for BB10. I know the diehard BB10 fans keep refusing to believe this, but driver development is very expensive. Qualcomm has a limited set of engineers that are busy. Taking time to develop for an OS that at best would sell 2-3 million chips a year is not worth the expense. Even if BB was willing to pay, Qualcomm would have to delay driver development for other products. The opportunity cost is just not worth it for them. I think the biggest factor is the low ASP of BB10 phones. BB can't survive selling phones for $250. BB users have come to expect low cost phones. They delay the purchase until BB is having fire sales. The final problem is the market has just shifted. Many large companies have adopted iPhones (even many US Gov Agencies), other companies have moved to BYOD. BYOD really puts the consumer in charge and they look for what is most important to them and that is a complete eco system including lots of Apps. BB10 users can keep repeating to themselves how unimportant apps are but that does not make it real for the rest of us.
    02-12-16 08:23 AM
  5. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    No one knows BB10 ever existed. Ask a "pro user" of smartphones. He will have no idea what you are talking about.

    Public knowledge that you exist is a sine non qua of sales.
    Exactly!!!

    It is delusional to think that a few advertisements for the Z10 in the early days represents any kind of effective marketing campaign.

    It is a fact that CANNOT be denied that virtually no one outside of CB knows anything about BlackBerry BB10 phones.

    No amount of arm chair after the fact quarter backing can change that fact.
    02-12-16 09:48 AM
  6. JeepBB's Avatar
    I have never said that BB10 was a sales triumph. All I said was that Priv was selling less, therefore a failure because it has not changed the downward trend. I provided the number with the phone sales reported by BBC citing IDC, for 2013 and 2014.
    For now you have provided no link to a credible source, just statements.
    Nobody, except BB, knows how well the Priv is selling. I might agree with you in doubting that the Priv is selling well but as the last ER only included Priv sales for under a month and supply was restricted, any numbers are unlikely to be representative. We'll know more from the ER on 1st April but it is far too soon to declare the Priv a failure.

    In BB10's first quarter, IIRC it was outsold by BBOS by some 3:1. By your logic, BB10 should have been declared a failure at that point and canned. Though, with hindsight, BB could have saved themselves a lot of heartache if they had rushed to judgement and canned BB10 at the end of that first quarter!

    However, as it appears that you don't accept BB's ER figures for BB10 sales or the remaining BB userbase either I doubt that event will be of any interest to you. I would Google the Earnings Reports for you showing BB10's sales numbers and userbase numbers for successive quarters and post photographs of the relevant pages, but I'm sure we both realise that would be a waste of my time. Photographic evidence doesn't seem to cut it around here anymore... I blame Photoshop.
    DrBoomBotz and Witmen like this.
    02-12-16 10:22 AM
  7. sorinv's Avatar
    Yes. Please provide the link. Yes photographic evidence is not evidence. Every video and picture can be doctored.
    For now, the latest official numbers I have seen are 8.3M in 2013 and 5.8M phones sold in 2014.
    Those numbers include all phones: bb10 and BBOS.
    The only other number I have seen is 700K total (BBOS, priv and BB10) for last quarter.
    Any way you look at it, Chen and priv have not stopped the bleeding.
    That's all that I have been saying: Chen is failing as badly as his predecessors or worse.
    There is no reason to raise him a statue as many here want.
    02-12-16 05:25 PM
  8. sorinv's Avatar
    Yes. Please provide the link. Yes photographic evidence is not evidence. Every video and picture can be doctored.
    For now, the latest official numbers I have seen are 8.3M in 2013 and 5.8M phones sold in 2014.
    Those numbers include all phones: bb10 and BBOS.
    The only other number I have seen is 700K total (BBOS, priv and BB10) for last quarter.
    Any way you look at it, Chen and priv have not stopped the bleeding.
    That's all that I have been saying: Chen is failing as badly as his predecessors or worse.
    There is no reason to raise him a statue as many here want.
    I have said as early as 2010 that BlackBerry will shrink and disappear because young people associate it with the old business guys. Whatever BlackBerry would do: switch to IoS, android, is not going to sell until that perception is changed. That can only be done with advertising or with a revolutionary new gadget, that is not a smartphone.
    The smartphone era is over. There is nothing exciting about smartphones anymore. They are like TV's used to be 20 years ago...
    02-12-16 05:31 PM
  9. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    I have said as early as 2010 that BlackBerry will shrink and disappear because young people associate it with the old business guys. Whatever BlackBerry would do: switch to IoS, android, is not going to sell until that perception is changed. That can only be done with advertising or with a revolutionary new gadget, that is not a smartphone.
    The smartphone era is over. There is nothing exciting about smartphones anymore. They are like TV's used to be 20 years ago...
    Where are the hipsters when you need them?
    JeepBB likes this.
    02-12-16 06:10 PM
  10. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Yes. Please provide the link. Yes photographic evidence is not evidence. Every video and picture can be doctored.
    For now, the latest official numbers I have seen are 8.3M in 2013 and 5.8M phones sold in 2014.
    Those numbers include all phones: bb10 and BBOS.
    The only other number I have seen is 700K total (BBOS, priv and BB10) for last quarter.
    Any way you look at it, Chen and priv have not stopped the bleeding.
    That's all that I have been saying: Chen is failing as badly as his predecessors or worse.
    There is no reason to raise him a statue as many here want.
    Here are a couple of older threads you might find relevant:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...4-yoy-1025567/

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...-total-984288/

    As you can see from reading through them, Ahmed's numbers come from BB's earning reports and/or the post ER conference calls. In other words, they are BB's numbers.
    02-12-16 07:20 PM
  11. sorinv's Avatar
    Wow, you describe the release of the Passport, Classic and Leap, and the spending millions to develop BB10 2.x and 3.x as giving up on BB10? All of this activity was very expensive. Yes, BB did not start any print add campaign. Probably smart since who would they target. Instead BB directed their marketing budget towards PR, getting reviews of the products and getting Analysts talking about BlackBerry. Corporate leaders do not pay attention to marketing, they do pay attention to what Gartner, IDC and others are saying. Chen and company have done an amazing job getting BlackBerry talked about in some positive articles. The press actually views Chen and an important person to ask about the future of mobile technology. He is often quoted in general articles about mobile technology. No CEO of BlackBerry has been viewed like this for over 5 years. If you have never worked with press and analysts then you don't know how expensive this type of coverage is for a company like BlackBerry.

    I don't believe Chen gave up on BB10 until early 2015. Several factors played in the decision to adopt Android. One of the biggest is Qualcomm refusal to develop any new drivers for BB10. I know the diehard BB10 fans keep refusing to believe this, but driver development is very expensive. Qualcomm has a limited set of engineers that are busy. Taking time to develop for an OS that at best would sell 2-3 million chips a year is not worth the expense. Even if BB was willing to pay, Qualcomm would have to delay driver development for other products. The opportunity cost is just not worth it for them. I think the biggest factor is the low ASP of BB10 phones. BB can't survive selling phones for $250. BB users have come to expect low cost phones. They delay the purchase until BB is having fire sales. The final problem is the market has just shifted. Many large companies have adopted iPhones (even many US Gov Agencies), other companies have moved to BYOD. BYOD really puts the consumer in charge and they look for what is most important to them and that is a complete eco system including lots of Apps. BB10 users can keep repeating to themselves how unimportant apps are but that does not make it real for the rest of us.
    Well, Chen himself admitted after the launch of the Priv that they started working on an android phone right after he arrived. It's true that the damaged had already been done when they announced BlackBerry was for sale.
    You never do that until you actually have a deal to sell the company.

    As for the Z3 and Leap, they were just parts from z10 which were written off under Heins resold for profit. He was definitely good at that.
    The passport was designed before him.
    Lazaridis was the darling of BBC. I have seen him several times being interviewed and always came out as very smart and with great ideas. I heard him talk about the playbook and why the 7inch made sense, and why the would not give in to Indian government pressure.
    He is a much better media person than Chen and I don't even want to compare their technical visions.
    Chen is a failure for anyone who wants BlackBerry to sell phones and to continue to be a leader of high tech.
    Chen is just a bean counter. He has been brought to cut cost and wrap up everything at BlackBerry. He is managing well in that respect.
    He has lost ground in IoT and has no chance in automotive.
    02-12-16 07:29 PM
  12. sorinv's Avatar
    Here are a couple of older threads you might find relevant:

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...4-yoy-1025567/

    http://forums.crackberry.com/general...-total-984288/

    As you can see from reading through them, Ahmed's numbers come from BB's earning reports and/or the post ER conference calls. In other words, they are BB's numbers.
    Your links confirm what I said: only 0.32M BBOS were sold in the last 6 months by the end of August 2015, which is about 30% or less of the BB10 phone sales over the same period.
    It does not say anything about the BB10 vs. BBOS sales in 2013 and 2014.
    Last edited by sorinv; 02-12-16 at 11:03 PM.
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    02-12-16 07:56 PM
  13. JeepBB's Avatar
    Yes. Please provide the link. Yes photographic evidence is not evidence. Every video and picture can be doctored.
    Annnnnnnnnnd, I'm out!
    02-13-16 03:37 AM
  14. sorinv's Avatar
    Annnnnnnnnnd, I'm out!
    I guess it's harder for you to provide a link to a credible source like IDC than a picture.
    02-13-16 07:05 AM
  15. donnation's Avatar
    Well they did try this stroke of marketing genius....

    I feel that BlackBerry didn't even try with BB10...-samsung-wake-up.jpg
    pantlesspenguin, JeepBB and Witmen like this.
    02-13-16 10:34 AM
  16. ChrisLeNeve's Avatar
    This post is absolute rubbish.

    Posted via CB10
    02-13-16 10:53 AM
  17. TgeekB's Avatar
    Well they did try this stroke of marketing genius....

    Click image for larger version. 

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    I think those are some Crackberry members holding up those signs.
    02-13-16 11:12 AM
  18. jtfolden's Avatar
    iPhone users can't use their phones either. I swear everytime I have someone elses iPhone in my hand when I double click the front button they have a 100 applications running because they didn't know how to close them.
    ...because it's not necessary to "close them" 99% of the time and that is not just a list of *running* apps but rather recently used ones. It sounds like you are the one that doesn't know how to use an iPhone.
    Bbnivende and eshropshire like this.
    02-13-16 03:51 PM
  19. idssteve's Avatar
    Lol.. Ah yes, the infamous "Wake Up" campaign. I could have happily forgotten that. Between that & Superbowl maybe BB has been best served without marketing. ?? Lol. When was that...? BB10 wasn't out yet, as I recall?

    Problem was, they were telling the wrong people to wake up. RIM needed to wake up. Might have generated useful impact IF BB10.3.2 on Z30/Classic had been released & stomping iButt a good six months before that "wake up" campaign, IMO. Or at LEAST before prematurely announcing BBOS obsolescence. "Wake up" Mike, Jim, Thor. Lol.
    Ronindan, MikeX74 and JeepBB like this.
    02-14-16 07:34 AM
  20. donnation's Avatar
    And let us not forget this absolute gem of a marketing idea: Let's have someone no one has ever heard of discussing how they get 1000 emails A DAY and then making the statement: "Try writing 1000 emails on a touchscreen." This was in the same year that BB announced their first BB10 phone would be a touchscreen phone. Not only is it comically inept, its impossible from a math standpoint. I give you Meridith Valiando, one of the people in BB's awful Blackberry Advocate ads (the fact that they reference social media, which BB is awful at from an apps standpoint is also hilarious, coupled with her taking a photo with the Bold 9900, which was terrible for pictures):



    It's almost better that BB doesn't try anymore. Because what they try is some of the worst shoot-yourself-in-the-foot, ridiculous, laughable advertising in the industry. It's already spilled over into the nonsense ads on their website. They just don't know how to do marketing. Never have, most likely never will.
    Last edited by donnation; 02-14-16 at 11:15 AM.
    TgeekB, Ronindan and JeepBB like this.
    02-14-16 09:40 AM
  21. msmcmillan's Avatar
    I love BB10, but it could've been sooo much more than what it is...

    Pin:mcmillan
    02-14-16 09:48 AM
  22. Prem WatsApp's Avatar
    BlackBerry thought that legacy users in emerging countries in like Nigeria, South Africa, Indonesia and India etc would continue to buy cheap BBOS devices and or keep on using friend and family BBOS phones to take advantage of cheap data plans. They really wanted a soft landing to lessen the decline rate of service revenue.

    This interesting article provides some context to the failure to migrate in the Enterprise sector.

    https://www.aabacosmallbusiness.com/...155239296.html



    Below is an interesting snapshot of the conventional wisdom existing in November 2011. The problem areas were noted but glossed over. The pitfalls came true but the advantages did not .

    http://emilycatanzarite.com/pdfs/Mar...rry%20Colt.pdf

    The Colt was cancelled - it morphed into London which ultimately hot the market as a Z10 ( upgraded specs)

    I am not sure what BlackBerry could have done in 2011/2012. They had three distinct user groups, Enterprise, Emerging Nations and consumers primarily in North America and the UK . There was no one fix all solution.

    Apparently the Carriers in North America nixed the Milan a BB7 Torch like device in late 2011.

    Hindsight tells me that they should have updated the 9900 for Enterprise users and converted to Android for consumers. They could have then devoted all of their time to improving their all touch hardware and BES. At some point in 2013 or 2014 - the Enterprise phone would have been Android as well.

    The Playbook was the pigeon in the coal mine.
    Don't forget the BES5 / BES10 drama. That cost a lot of enterprise customers, I might assume.

    Canary you mean?
    Yeah, that PlayBook consumed all the remaining oxygen in the proverbial coal mine...

    :-D

    (= resources better spent elsewhere! )

      There's a Crack in the Berry right now...  
    02-14-16 05:14 PM
  23. jtfolden's Avatar
    I don't think there was anything horribly wrong with the hardware or software, only that it came out *literally* years later than it should have. There was a very small window of opportunity to gain a foothold before iOS and Android gobbled up all smartphone marketshare and Blackberry completely missed it.

    IMO, Blackberry should have bought webOS (& Palm outright if they could have afforded to do so) instead of QNX back in 2009/2010. While Palm didn't have the time/ability to make sound hardware, webOS itself had a lot of promise and a small but growing following. That could have allowed BB to enter the market with a competitive device 2- 3 years earlier.
    02-14-16 06:02 PM
  24. GadgetTravel's Avatar
    I don't think there was anything horribly wrong with the hardware or software, only that it came out *literally* years later than it should have. There was a very small window of opportunity to gain a foothold before iOS and Android gobbled up all smartphone marketshare and Blackberry completely missed it.

    IMO, Blackberry should have bought webOS (& Palm outright if they could have afforded to do so) instead of QNX back in 2009/2010. While Palm didn't have the time/ability to make sound hardware, webOS itself had a lot of promise and a small but growing following. That could have allowed BB to enter the market with a competitive device 2- 3 years earlier.
    Very good point. As I recall I went from Treo to iPhone 3s. That was near the end of the window. The Treo worked well.
    02-14-16 09:44 PM
  25. prplhze2000's Avatar
    I liked the touchpad version of webos

    Posted via CB10
    02-14-16 10:54 PM
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