02-27-16 02:08 PM
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  1. AK1000's Avatar
    Good post from the OP but I disagree; I think they tried within their means. They spent millions on development but just didn't have the financial means to compete with the power houses that are Samsung and Apple.

    Yes it is a great OS, but we can't walk around like we know better than others... a lot of people left BlackBerry because other phones simply improved and innovated faster.

    And the apps are important. You don't need millions on your phone, but companion apps are the future (and even present) of most product experiences, even in healthcare... without a friendly platform us BlackBerry users are simply excluded.

    Moving to the Priv was the only compromise. I hope that they continue the hardware and make a skin that delivers a more BB10 experience.

    Posted via Priv
    Bbnivende, TgeekB and JeepBB like this.
    02-09-16 04:20 PM
  2. prplhze2000's Avatar
    I didn't say they didn't work hard. They did. They just didn't work smart.

    Posted via CB10
    02-09-16 04:46 PM
  3. andy957's Avatar
    Blackberry is the perfect example how management can destroy a great company with bad decisions and poor judgement.
    This ^^^
    crackberry_geek and Gazza12 like this.
    02-09-16 05:47 PM
  4. crazy mazy's Avatar
    Yes Blackberry did try hard to sell those phones, except no one except you and I bought them,. That is why BB10 failed, no one was buying them. I am sorry that they couldn't sell them but such is life, things happen.
    02-09-16 06:22 PM
  5. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    iPhone users can't use their phones either. I swear everytime I have someone elses iPhone in my hand when I double click the front button they have a 100 applications running because they didn't know how to close them.
    Maybe you need to read up on the design of iOS and Android, but I'll give you a quick summary: the OSs are designed to manage resources themselves, without the user having to do so, and they are most efficient when apps are left loaded in memory (at least, until that RAM is actually needed for something else - then the OS closes the least-used apps automatically until it frees up enough RAM). Manually closing apps actually slows the phone down and uses more battery, because the app will just need to be read back into RAM from the storage flash RAM the next time it is run.

    Just because you see a lot of apps "running" doesn't mean they're using any significant amount of CPU or battery - they aren't. The app tells the OS if it is actually needing to do something active, and if not, the OS will "pause" the app to save battery/CPU cycles but leave it loaded in RAM. Remember that mobile devices are not desktops hooked up to wall power, and so they are intentionally designed differently, and for very good reasons.

    BB10 is designed like a desktop, and based on a RTOS, unlike every other mobile OS. Think about that for a minute - there are plenty of RTOSs out there, including LinuxRT, and a RTOS could have easily been used for the basis of Android or Sailfish or Tizen or Ubuntu Phone, etc. The reality is that nearly all mobile engineers agree that RTOSs aren't the best fit for general mobile OSs, which is why they aren't normally used. Obviously there is some disagreement about that, and we could discuss that on another thread, but to get back to the original point, other mobile OSs don't work like BB10 because they aren't designed to. They are designed to keep apps running, and there is nothing at all wrong with that design decision. It may not be what you are used to, but it is what everyone in the industry (except BB) does, and again, there are very good reasons for that.
    02-09-16 06:37 PM
  6. matt4pack's Avatar
    Maybe you need to read up on the design of iOS and Android, but I'll give you a quick summary: the OSs are designed to manage resources themselves, without the user having to do so, and they are most efficient when apps are left loaded in memory (at least, until that RAM is actually needed for something else - then the OS closes the least-used apps automatically until it frees up enough RAM). Manually closing apps actually slows the phone down and uses more battery, because the app will just need to be read back into RAM from the storage flash RAM the next time it is run.

    Just because you see a lot of apps "running" doesn't mean they're using any significant amount of CPU or battery - they aren't. The app tells the OS if it is actually needing to do something active, and if not, the OS will "pause" the app to save battery/CPU cycles but leave it loaded in RAM. Remember that mobile devices are not desktops hooked up to wall power, and so they are intentionally designed differently, and for very good reasons.

    BB10 is designed like a desktop, and based on a RTOS, unlike every other mobile OS. Think about that for a minute - there are plenty of RTOSs out there, including LinuxRT, and a RTOS could have easily been used for the basis of Android or Sailfish or Tizen or Ubuntu Phone, etc. The reality is that nearly all mobile engineers agree that RTOSs aren't the best fit for general mobile OSs, which is why they aren't normally used. Obviously there is some disagreement about that, and we could discuss that on another thread, but to get back to the original point, other mobile OSs don't work like BB10 because they aren't designed to. They are designed to keep apps running, and there is nothing at all wrong with that design decision. It may not be what you are used to, but it is what everyone in the industry (except BB) does, and again, there are very good reasons for that.
    RTOS doesn't really have anything to do with it. It is a microkernel which provides security benefits in itself and why it was chosen in the first place but also requires more memory to run smoothly. The only reason for the fake multitasking is because they think most users are too dumb to manage their apps themselves which is true most are and that when they first came out the hardware of the time wasn't as powerful. The first iphone had 128mb of ram so real multitasking was out of the question. There is no real reason for it today besides maybe being easier but then you could say why don't desktop os's use it then.

    And with using all 3 platforms everyday there really is no discernible difference with the performance or battery life between the lastest andoid/ios and bb10.3. Maybe the only thing who could say is bb10 requires higher system requirements to be as smooth as the other 2.
    Last edited by matt4pack; 02-09-16 at 07:32 PM.
    acovey likes this.
    02-09-16 07:16 PM
  7. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    Yes, but that's because Chen abandoned BB10 some time ago. Thor sold 5 million Z10s. Chen is just trying to sell 5 million phones *per year*. With this failed CEO, BlackBerry cannot afford BB10, but if the board had hired someone else, we might still have a platform of our own.
    Spot-freaking-on!!!!
    02-09-16 07:28 PM
  8. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    RTOS has nothing to do with anything. It is a microkernel which provides security benefits in itself but also requires more memory to run smoothly but the only reason for the fake multitasking is because they think most users are too dumb to manage their apps themselves which is true most are.
    It has nothing to do with people being smart or dumb. There is a legitimate speed and power issue when you have to reload apps in from storage.

    Just another way society is being dumbed down. Why don't they do the same on desktop os's if it's so great?
    Because you can (and usually DO) have much more in the way of hardware resources on the desktop, including unlimited power. Thus, there has been less need to optimize the OS that way, but, in fact, Microsoft started letting users cache data on USB drives to speed startup back with Vista (the feature is called ReadyBoost) - another example of using faster media to increase load speeds.

    It's a technology-based improvement, whether you're willing to admit it or not.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt likes this.
    02-09-16 07:29 PM
  9. crackberry_geek's Avatar
    Which is your opinion, which is obviously yours to give.

    However, you are clearly not representative of the vast majority of smartphone users. If you were, Android and iOS wouldn't own 95% of the market, and BB wouldn't have abandoned BB10 in favour of Android. As to the myth that it's not possible to be productive using any other OS... well, again, that's your opinion and most independent observers would accept that the world seems to be getting along reasonably productively without BB10.

    I realise that many here on CB will refuse to accept it, but the failure of BB10 is not due to poor marketing and because nobody knew about it. Here in the UK, the Z10 and Q10 were heavily advertised and promoted by carriers, favourably reviewed by major newspapers and tech-journals, and generally well-publicised. Nobody even vaguely interested in phones could have been unaware that BB had a new OS and a new set of phones.

    The sad truth is that despite all that promotion and marketing BB10 simply didn't appeal to enough people to make it viable. Without the Apps people wanted it wasn't ever going to be a success, and it wasn't.
    ... which is your 'opinion'... and completely wrong in MANY people's opinion...
    02-09-16 07:30 PM
  10. matt4pack's Avatar
    It has nothing to do with people being smart or dumb. There is a legitimate speed and power issue when you have to reload apps in from storage.



    Because you can (and usually DO) have much more in the way of hardware resources on the desktop, including unlimited power. Thus, there has been less need to optimize the OS that way, but, in fact, Microsoft started letting users cache data on USB drives to speed startup back with Vista (the feature is called ReadyBoost) - another example of using faster media to increase load speeds.

    It's a technology-based improvement, whether you're willing to admit it or not.
    That only really mattered in the early days when iphones came with 128mb of memory. With today's hardware not so much. I mean my passport gets better battery life then my ipad.

    Which no one used because it was mostly pointless.
    02-09-16 07:35 PM
  11. phillyd2's Avatar
    Do you think that BB or any company simply waves a magic wand and BOOM! - apps now exist?.
    Hopefully this idiotic question was not serious.

    Instead of magic maybe they could have contacted the app developers and offered to pick up the tab to create the BB10 version and instead of giving it away for free charged us .99 for it and committed that 75% of the sales went back to the developer for 2 years. No downside whatsoever to the app developers.

    May not have been possible, may not have worked but with all the millions spent and time invested it would have removed the main reason BB10 is now pretty much dead.

    Regardless, you can't go from such a dominant market share to a joke in such a short time by accident. And just pure stupidity is not enough of an excuse to so completely screw up a business.
    acovey likes this.
    02-09-16 07:48 PM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Hopefully this idiotic question was not serious.

    Instead of magic maybe they could have contacted the app developers and offered to pick up the tab to create the BB10 version and instead of giving it away for free charged us .99 for it and committed that 75% of the sales went back to the developer for 2 years. No downside whatsoever to the app developers.

    May not have been possible, may not have worked but with all the millions spent and time invested it would have removed the main reason BB10 is now pretty much dead.
    Except they did exactly that - they offered big devs both cash and BB-trained developers to help them write BB10 versions of their apps - and in most cases were turned down. In most cases, those companies simply realized that BB10 was way too late to the party, and way too behind the mass growth curve in mobile, to ever have any significant marketshare, and not only didn't they want to pay the initial development costs of writing a BB10 app (costs that BB was willing to help pay for), they also didn't want to pay for ongoing development and support (which BB wasn't offering to pay, and couldn't afford to pay) or the opportunity costs of having their focus too diluted with multiple platforms that they could miss fast-moving trends.

    The point is: BB tried. They had a VP, who had a team working under him, that did nothing but spend almost 2 years trying to bring big apps to BB10 - even if only by officially porting their Android app over. Those devs just weren't interested.

    They also had another VP and team working with small/indie developers. And while some good apps came of that, the overwhelming volume of apps came from a handful of developers who filled BB World with useless crap. Read here.

    The fault wasn't with these two VPs - they did everything they could do within their budgets - the problem was that RIM's 3 years of inaction had already doomed BB10 before it even launched. The poor decisions were made by Mike (and Jim, but mostly Mike) between 2007 and 2010, and BB10 simply couldn't recover from that massive delay.
    02-09-16 08:07 PM
  13. DonHB's Avatar
    ...BB10 is designed like a desktop, and based on a RTOS, unlike every other mobile OS. Think about that for a minute - there are plenty of RTOSs out there, including LinuxRT, and a RTOS could have easily been used for the basis of Android or Sailfish or Tizen or Ubuntu Phone, etc. The reality is that nearly all mobile engineers agree that RTOSs aren't the best fit for general mobile OSs, which is why they aren't normally used. Obviously there is some disagreement about that, and we could discuss that on another thread, but to get back to the original point, other mobile OSs don't work like BB10 because they aren't designed to. They are designed to keep apps running, and there is nothing at all wrong with that design decision. It may not be what you are used to, but it is what everyone in the industry (except BB) does, and again, there are very good reasons for that.
    I understand that both Android and iOS utilize a real time OS in the radios. It would be interesting to know if BB10 uses a Qualcomm OS or if the radio is managed by QNX. With the separate radio updates that come with each BB10 OS release, BBRY may not be using Qualcomm's software and would be an important element in BB10's claim of increased security over the competition. Replacing GR Security Linux in the Priv with QNX can also allow for interesting design decisions such as the use of software defined radios. This would allow configuration of each of several radios to support either Bluetooth, WiFi or GSM/LTE dependent upon what is being done in real time.

    An embedded OS which most consider QNX to be suggests that BB10 does not act like a desktop OS. Though having the number of development options of a desktop OS may have changed the app situation.
    Last edited by DonHB; 02-09-16 at 08:42 PM.
    02-09-16 08:09 PM
  14. MrScotian's Avatar
    Blackberry is the perfect example how management can destroy a great company with bad decisions and poor judgement.

    posted by either my Passport or S6 Edge, depending on my mood.
    The management I will employ in selecting my next phone once my Z30 dies or becomes functionally obsolete will be very clear. Buy a different vendor and OS.

    Blackberry 10 not Android
    02-09-16 08:28 PM
  15. DonHB's Avatar
    The point is: BB tried. They had a VP, who had a team working under him, that did nothing but spend almost 2 years trying to bring big apps to BB10 - even if only by officially porting their Android app over. Those devs just weren't interested.
    That the Android runtime environment did not support the BB10 UX meant that developers had to chose between creating and supporting a completely separate BB10 codebase or compromise BB10 usability. So, they chose neither.

    Had BlackBerry invested in making Android apps integrate properly with BB10 it would have a shown BlackBerry to be a very different company than other mobile device makers that lock developer codebases to their platform.
    02-09-16 08:37 PM
  16. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    There's no way that Android apps were ever going to "integrate properly" in BB10. To believe otherwise is like believing in Voodoo. Android apps were written to run on Android, with Android UI and notifications and Google Play Services and so on. You can only fake so much of that before you run into things that just can't be fooled.

    The whole idea of relying on another platform's apps was an idea doomed to failure from the beginning. It's simply not sustainable - only native apps are sustainable over time, and BB was between a rock and a hard place: devs didn't want to develop for BB10 native (too small of a market, bad ROI), and having the Android Runtime actually made them even less interested in developing for BB10 - BUT it made BB10 somewhat viable for a percentage of users, at least for a while. But as I predicted here a few years ago, Google continued to tighten down apps and more and more apps integrated Google Services, breaking apps that formerly ran okay on the Runtime. Fewer and fewer users were willing to put up with the hassle and uncertainty, and BB10's marketshare fell and fell.
    JeepBB, Elephant_Canyon and web99 like this.
    02-09-16 08:46 PM
  17. phillyd2's Avatar
    Losers try. Winners do. The results are clear enough for all to see. The 800 lb gorilla of the industry had their lunch money taken in the most embarrassing way possible and no amount of spin or justification can minimize that stink.
    Kurdis Blough likes this.
    02-09-16 09:17 PM
  18. hoongji's Avatar
    key important was application - either native or compatible mode. With fulfilment of application, i do believe that BB will gain some market share for sure. Don't just merely look at new devices. BB users are not alike other OS users, we're not device-mania.
    02-09-16 09:34 PM
  19. o4liberty's Avatar
    They tried just weren't able to get developers to get on board with apps and that is where they lacked. I have both the classic and the Priv and the difference is huge.

    Posted via CB10
    02-09-16 09:45 PM
  20. nt300's Avatar
    The only "mistake" that actually mattered was being caught at the wrong stage of a product life cycle when the iPhone and Android devices came out. BBOS was not technically capable of responding, and they waited too long to start fresh. Like I said, the rest is just noise.
    Regardless of them waiting too long, when BB10 was initially launched, the company did JACK for the platform. Mistake upon mistake upon mistake. Wrong marketing, ridiculous Superbowl Commercial, the Z10 and Z30 despite being amazing phones, had old specs. etc., I can go on and on.

    Ya too late in the market, but not IMPOSSIBLE. I keep hearing this nonsense argument about being too late. That is a figment of the imagination, at best.
    crackberry_geek likes this.
    02-09-16 09:56 PM
  21. DonHB's Avatar
    The whole idea of relying on another platform's apps was an idea doomed to failure from the beginning. It's simply not sustainable - only native apps are sustainable over time...
    You are actually repeating BlackBerry's mistake of considering Android as a competing platform instead of a collection of public APIs and VM that they could run with to create an alternative to Google. It is extraordinary that companies didn't have a quiet partnership to create a unified non-Google encumbered Android platform that would allow users to chose service providers that work beneath a standardized API. Remember the state of GMS (or was it GPS then?) in 2013. Also, consider that there were other companies besides Amazon using Android with out licensing GMS and further consider that Blackberry had already reworked Dalvik to work with BB10.

    BlackBerry would not have needed to invest much in a native API until developers voiced the desire or need for support of native code. An advantage that Android as OS doesn't have. Remember the state of GMS (or was it GPS then?) in 2013. BlackBerry should have considered Android as a first class development choice. Far better than the Web technologies that the iPhone had for development when it was introduced.
    02-10-16 12:15 AM
  22. Soulstream's Avatar
    You are actually repeating BlackBerry's mistake of considering Android as a competing platform instead of a collection of public APIs and VM that they could run with to create an alternative to Google. It is extraordinary that companies didn't have a quiet partnership to create a unified non-Google encumbered Android platform that would allow users to chose service providers that work beneath a standardized API. Remember the state of GMS (or was it GPS then?) in 2013. Also, consider that there were other companies besides Amazon using Android with out licensing GMS and further consider that Blackberry had already reworked Dalvik to work with BB10.

    BlackBerry would not have needed to invest much in a native API until developers voiced the desire or need for support of native code. An advantage that Android as OS doesn't have. Remember the state of GMS (or was it GPS then?) in 2013. BlackBerry should have considered Android as a first class development choice. Far better than the Web technologies that the iPhone had for development when it was introduced.
    Well anyone can use the open source Android code and build a workable OS right now. They just lose the crown jewel of Android which is Google Play. But failures such as Amazon and BB10 with the Android runtime showed a lot of companies that an OS without an ecosystem just doesn't sell. Why do you think that even the mighty samsung won't replace Android with their own developed Tizen.
    JeepBB and Troy Tiscareno like this.
    02-10-16 02:16 AM
  23. roadblochd's Avatar
    I disagree with the notion that BB10 arrived too late. There has been many an example in the OS world of an OS arriving late to the market but still managing to pull marketshare. Windows was generally considered late and garbage until Windows 95 arrived. OS X didn't arrive until well after Windows had swamped the marketshare, and yet it managed to take a slice for itself anyway. And both iOS and Android were late to the party when BBOS (and Symbian) was the best OS to have on a phone.

    Its never too late for a slice of the pie. It just has to be done right. BlackBerry hardly marketed BB10 and now we're in a state of confusion since we're unsure if BB10 is on the verge of "death" in favour of Android. BlackBerry goofed up when it came to communication and marketing.
    crackberry_geek and Avenzuno like this.
    02-10-16 05:30 AM
  24. Soulstream's Avatar
    I disagree with the notion that BB10 arrived too late. There has been many an example in the OS world of an OS arriving late to the market but still managing to pull marketshare. Windows was generally considered late and garbage until Windows 95 arrived. OS X didn't arrive until well after Windows had swamped the marketshare, and yet it managed to take a slice for itself anyway. And both iOS and Android were late to the party when BBOS (and Symbian) was the best OS to have on a phone.

    Its never too late for a slice of the pie. It just has to be done right. BlackBerry hardly marketed BB10 and now we're in a state of confusion since we're unsure if BB10 is on the verge of "death" in favour of Android. BlackBerry goofed up when it came to communication and marketing.
    It arrived too late, not because of the number of years, but because of the market maturity. The mobile market matured much faster than the desktop one. Both Windows and MacOSX arrived when the market was still growing. There hasn't been a new (successful) desktop OS for a lot of years now and it's a two horse race with Windows and MacOSX with some (free) linux distributions picking up the rest. Same with mobile. The market has matured now and no new successful OS has been launched. And again it is a two horse race with iOS and Android.
    JeepBB likes this.
    02-10-16 06:18 AM
  25. anon(9710735)'s Avatar
    I remember I was really excited when BB10 was coming out. I don't know what went wrong because fast forward to today BlackBerry is at the end of its life but the BB10 system and phones are absolutely amazing and I think BB10 is the best OS right now. I'll hold onto my dear BlackBerry phones as long as they still work. #BB4Life

    Posted via CB10
    crackberry_geek and Gazza12 like this.
    02-10-16 06:56 AM
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