[sorinv]

We do not have much longer to wait until this failure is going to be confirmed.

[tufcustomer]

Google paid Apple 1B dollars just to have Google search by default on iphones.
There are things management can do with money: buy companies (like Chen did) or buy apps, or pay your employees to develop them, like they do now with BlackBerry android apps for Priv.
Seems to me that no third party developers want to write android apps for the Priv. How has going Google solved that problem?

Either way, apps, millions of them, including google's, aren't growing BlackBerry's user base. The numbers continue to dwindle after the priv launch.

So no, it's not the lack of apps, even though many like to delude themselves with that.

It's everything: BlackBerry itself as a brand has been tarnished since 2009 or even earlier, and only a significant public relations campaign and excellent hardware and software, much better than what others are offering on android or ioS, could change that.
Copying others by going to android is not the solution.

No one said the lack of apps alone was the reason for failure.

Posted via CB10

[idssteve]

Expecting niche volume production numbers to compete with "McDonald's" economy of volume pricing is pretty unrealistic. Regardless of market.

No one expects McDonald's pricing at Ruth's Chris. Both enjoy enviable success.

[MmmHmm]

I have not said that there were not people who hadn't moved to android already.
On the contrary, all I said was that most of those who have not already moved from bb10 to android, decided not to because they did not want more Google in their lives.
But we can always argue on fine details, the outcome is the same. Both bb10 and priv are failing to save BlackBerry hardware.
What I don't understand is the zeal with which some here wish that bb10 is terminated faster to save priv.
The two are only correlated in the repeated and identical mistakes management made and the lack of marketing common to both.

What we will never know is what would have happened if BlackBerry had marketed the devices like their competitors do (scaled down based on revenue and resources) and if, instead of writing apps for android, BlackBerry would have written the missing major apps for bb10.
That would obviously not have solved all the app problems, but would have convinced other app developers and users that BlackBerry is actually making an effort to develop the ecosystem.

But again, we will never know because neither marketing nor app development happened, except for android!
Comparing with Microsoft Windows is not necessarily conclusive because we can also compare with BlackBerry 10 years ago and Google and Apple 10 years ago...

It's amazing how much revisionist history there is in here in terms of BlackBerry's marketing efforts and efforts at establishing an ecosystem in the early days of BB10 when it really mattered and it wasn't clear yet whether the platform would be a success. The efforts were actually substantial when "scaled down based on revenue and resources". Unfortunately BB tried this when the market was already mature and there were already incredibly wealthy and successful dominate players.

Windows Phone is our best comparison to see whether vast amounts of marketing money can crack this fully matured market, and that comparison doesn't look good for third tier players. 10 years ago was a different era all together. Now, the market is mature and the two dominant players are among the wealthiest companies in the entire world - even including companies in all other industries. By 2013 we'd already had many years of people lining up around the block and making the news to buy each new iPhone. The competitors were already engrained in the culture.

Personally, I think by 2013 when BB10 was released, there is simply no amount of marketing or other efforts that could have been successful for BlackBerry. The barrier to new entries was simply too high, certainly for a company of BlackBerry's modest size. A relatively small company vs. the wealthiest companies in the world, in light of the factors discussed above. If I was a betting man, I'd have bet against Blackberry.

[sportline]

BlackBerry should have spend 50m$ making good apps for BB10 and market it like hell.

Passport SE

[ubizmo]

On the contrary, all I said was that most of those who have not already moved from bb10 to android, decided not to because they did not want more Google in their lives.
But we can always argue on fine details, the outcome is the same. Both bb10 and priv are failing to save BlackBerry hardware.
What I don't understand is the zeal with which some here wish that bb10 is terminated faster to save priv.
The two are only correlated in the repeated and identical mistakes management made and the lack of marketing common to both.

Fair enough. Dislike for Google is one reason that some have expressed for not moving from BB10 to the Priv. I don't know if it's the reason "most" have given, and neither do you. In fact, if I had to guess, based on my own impressions from reading CB, the reason that most stands out to me is a reluctance to give up the full Hub experience, with "peek and flow", followed by claims that Android is "laggy" and "cluttered"--that sort of thing. In short, my impression is that a lot of people, maybe most, who are staying with BB10 are doing so because they prefer the user experience.

My point about many BB10 users also being Gmail users and wanting Google Play and Play Services on their BB10 devices also indicates that many don't have a problem with Google's data-mining. Again, you have to ask yourself why Cobalt's threads, and before them the Snap threads, were/are as long as they are. In short, we have quite a bit of evidence that a lot of BB10 users, past and present, really would like BB10 to "run the Google" as fully as possible.

I haven't seen too many who express a wish for BB10 to fold as soon as possible. I do see a lot who express the belief that it doesn't have much longer to live. Desires and beliefs aren't the same thing, but some people have trouble distinguishing them, as we've seen in the "Do you believe BB10 has a future" thread. A distressing number of people expressed views that amount to "yes, because I want it to." I haven't seen anybody say "no, because I don't want it to."

[sorinv]

All right. We are converging. But one more correction., I have said "some here wish" not "most here wish."

[ubizmo]

All right. We are converging. But one more correction., I have said "some here wish" not "most here wish."

In fact, you said,

Being datamined by Google was not the reason why BBOS users did not switch to BB10.
That is the most common reason why those who are still on BB10 did not switch to the Priv.

I'm still not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, but I'll grant you it's one reason. Some of us, like myself, have pulled back from Google Services even while using Android. You can't avoid Google's tracking altogether on Android, if you use the Play Store at all, but you don't have to use Gmail, Google Maps, Calendar, Contacts, etc. if you don't want to.

[Bbnivende]

Not having Google Play store without having to patch and Colbalt was the main reason I left BB10.

Posted via CB10

[app_Developer]

BlackBerry should have spend 50m$ making good apps for BB10 and market it like hell.

But people don't want apps from BlackBerry. They want apps from Netflix, and FB, and Citi, and Uber and their favorite home and car gadgets, etc. Most people just want phones that work with all the other services in their lives without a lot of fuss.

So it was never about BB making apps, it was about all these other people making apps for BB10. BB made offers (financial and technical) to these companies to help, but ultimately most of these companies decided it wasn't worth the effort. It's that simple.

Same issue with Windows. Where I work it wasn't in our plans. Then when there was an apparent uptick in Windows Phone sales a few quarters ago, it came back into our plans. Then now that Windows is losing momentum again in key markets we care about, those plans are on hold again. Microsoft will give us devices, and money, and marketing cooperation and all of that, but it all doesn't amount to a hill of beans until and unless we have enough customers using their phones to make it worth our effort.

[pantlesspenguin]

BlackBerry should have spend 50m$ making good apps for BB10 and market it like hell.

Passport SE

That wouldn't have even worked. People want the OFFICIAL apps. People who were already used to Android and iOS typically shied away from unofficial apps (with exeption to social media apps that combine several services). They don't want something that "works like" instagram, they want instagram. They don't want something that "works like" snapchat, they want snapchat. Etc etc etc.

I also remember some Android ports didn't work too well on early versions on BB10. I couldn't find a single fitness tracker that didn't crash on me while mapping out my hikes, for example.

[JeepBB]

That wouldn't have even worked. People want the OFFICIAL apps. People who were already used to Android and iOS typically shied away from unofficial apps (with exeption to social media apps that combine several services). They don't want something that "works like" instagram, they want instagram. They don't want something that "works like" snapchat, they want snapchat. Etc etc etc.

I also remember some Android ports didn't work too well on early versions on BB10. I couldn't find a single fitness tracker that didn't crash on me while mapping out my hikes, for example.

And that's just social apps....

Hmmm... I can't get an official BB10 App from my bank ... I know, I'll use this 3rd party banking app from BBW ... said no-one, ever!

[Tre Lawrence]

And that's just social apps....

Hmmm... I can't get an official BB10 App from my bank ... I know, I'll use this 3rd party banking app from BBW ... said no-one, ever!

LOL.

[app_Developer]

Expecting niche volume production numbers to compete with "McDonald's" economy of volume pricing is pretty unrealistic. Regardless of market.

No one expects McDonald's pricing at Ruth's Chris. Both enjoy enviable success.

Depends on how you define "enviable". The market cap for Ruth's Chris is a tiny fraction of McDonalds. The big question for BBRY investors is exactly how small will BlackBerry be in 2-3 years? That's the question Chen is on the hook to answer. He successfully saves the company from extinction. His next trick is to find a way to make the company worth north of $10/share again. Hopefully higher.

Also, the only reason high end restaurants are in business at all is that people expect that if you walk into Ruth's Chris your bill will be 15x or 20x what it would have been at McDonalds. Are BB users willing to pay 20x what it costs to buy a basic Android phone?

That's how the high end niche works. A high end stove/oven doesn't cost twice what the basic models cost. It's 50x or 100x. And even then these high end brands still struggle often.

[JeepBB]

Expecting niche volume production numbers to compete with "McDonald's" economy of volume pricing is pretty unrealistic. Regardless of market.

I believe that you may be confused.

BB is in the smartphone volume production game, they just aren't selling many phones!

Trying, and failing, to sell product in volume does NOT mean that you've transitioned into a niche manufacturer of boutique products... it means you've failed!

[GadgetTravel]

I believe that you may be confused.

BB is in the smartphone volume production game, they just aren't selling many phones!

Trying, and failing, to sell product in volume does NOT mean that you've transitioned into a niche manufacturer of boutique products... it means you've failed!

Yes. BB is a mass market phone. To see the high end niche phone check out Vertu.

[cribble2k]

And that's just social apps....

Hmmm... I can't get an official BB10 App from my bank ... I know, I'll use this 3rd party banking app from BBW ... said no-one, ever!

The typical BB10 response to "missing apps" would be "Use the website, it's better than apps"

And then someone would follow up with something about HTML 5.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[Troy Tiscareno]

No one expects McDonald's pricing at Ruth's Chris. Both enjoy enviable success.

Absolutely. But nearly everyone can agree that Ruth's Chris steak is orders of magnitude better than a McDonald's burger, while only a tiny minority feel that BB10 is better than Android or iOS - either objectively or "for them." Until you can get a significant majority to agree that it is, it isn't going to be able to command a premium price - and without the ability to command a premium price, it can't survive on tiny volumes.

Ferrari could never survive on its volumes if they only charge 10% more than a new Honda Accord either. That's about where BB is now - Ferrari volumes and Honda unit prices.

[crackberry_geek]

...while only a tiny minority feel that BB10 is better than Android or iOS - either objectively or "for them."

... laughable...

[Bbnivende]

... laughable...

BB10 is excellent but every day, BlackBerry loses more users than it gains. This trend can only be reversed with Android and probably only if BlackBerry offers an all touch and a Vienna type phone in addition to the PRI V.

Posted via CB10

[sorinv]

In fact, you said,



I'm still not sure how you arrived at that conclusion, but I'll grant you it's one reason. Some of us, like myself, have pulled back from Google Services even while using Android. You can't avoid Google's tracking altogether on Android, if you use the Play Store at all, but you don't have to use Gmail, Google Maps, Calendar, Contacts, etc. if you don't want to.

Yes, but I was referring to a different post you first quoted. Now you quote from another.
But yes, I shouldn't have used "most" in this one either. I should have also used "some."

[sorinv]

BB10 is excellent but every day, BlackBerry loses more users than it gains. This trend can only be reversed with Android and probably only if BlackBerry offers an all touch and a Vienna type phone in addition to the PRI V.

Posted via CB10

This is a bit of a contradiction, because priv with android has been out for three months now and still, according to you, BlackBerry loses more users than it gains every day.

[Bbnivende]

This is a bit of a contradiction, because priv with android has been out for three months now and still, according to you, BlackBerry loses more users than it gains every day.

The PRIV alone is not going to increase the BlackBerry user base. An expensive slider is not everyone's cup of tea. They need the Vienna and more importantly an Android all touch that is a good phone. They need to make a commitment to making Android phones.

The only other alternative is to partner with another manufacturer or sell the handset business or get out of making phones.

Posted via CB10

[eshropshire]

No, you don't even know that. I know for a fact that the ASP is at least 100 higher than your guess, actually.

Posted via CB10

I get my info from the BlackBerry Quarterly Reports, ASP is published by BB. They have been trending at $240 for several quarters, but last quarter did see an increase to $315, but they also had a major fall in volume. So we will see the number this quarter and see if they can stay over $300. BB ASP has not been over $350 for a long time. Even at $315, the phone business is not sustainable.

You can read in Forbes the data about the increase from $240 to $315
Here's Why BlackBerry Saw Its First Revenue Gain In 9 Quarters - Fortune

[ChrisLeNeve]

I get my info from the BlackBerry Quarterly Reports, ASP is published by BB. They have been trending at $240 for several quarters, but last quarter did see an increase to $315, but they also had a major fall in volume. So we will see the number this quarter and see if they can stay over $300. BB ASP has not been over $350 for a long time. Even at $315, the phone business is not sustainable.

You can read in Forbes the data about the increase from $240 to $315
Here's Why BlackBerry Saw Its First Revenue Gain In 9 Quarters - Fortune

There you go, ASP is 315 not 250. I never said BlackBerry was sustainable, or anything like that. My point is, don't invent facts. If you have an opinion based on facts, prove your opinion using those facts. Don't invent stuff.

Posted via CB10