HSDPA vs HSPA+ ??? Will new BB's be 4G?

Question that I'm hoping the network geeks out there can answer for me (please don't start that debate on what's true 4G, ok? It's getting old).

I'm looking at the BB Bold Touch, and its listed to have an HSDPA 14.4Mbps network capability. Is this the same as HSPA+ 14.4Mbps that T-Mobile is touting as 4G? What are the differences? I'm seeing conflicting debates on the forums whether the new crop of BB's are 3G or 4G capable. Since RIM hasn't said anything official of what the network speed, can anyone help decipher the spec'd leaks?

Thanks everyone!

High Speed Packet Access - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

read that, it will answer your questions, if it supports what it says it will then it will be better... their current HSPA+ for blackberrys doesnt support 14.4mbps

There is no true 4G at this point in time anyway.

Current LTE and WiMAX implementations are considered pre-4G, as they don't fully comply with the planned requirements of 1 Gbit/s for stationary reception and 100 Mbit/s for mobile.

4G - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by lak611

There is no true 4G at this point in time anyway

@lak611. Like I asked in my initial post, I didn't want this to be a debate on what true 4G is and isn't. That discussion is getting real old. The mislabeling of 4G is NOT going away, so let it go. I'm really just trying to find out how fast the download speeds on the new BB's will be. Just saying 4G is much "easier" to say than HSPA+ 14.4 or 21.1, since most major carriers have already adopted it. We can agree on that, right?

Anyways... So looking at the specs off of Phone Arena, the "cadillac" 9000 (my fav) and 9700 have a spec of "HSDPA 3.6Mbps", while the Bold Touch 9900 has "HSDPA 14.4Mbps". On my 9700 and work 9650, I never reached faster than 1.8Mbps. According to the Wikipedia article from Fubaz, the HSDPA (release 5, category 10) is capable of 14.4Mps. So in real life, will the Bold Touch 9900 have download speeds faster than the 9700/9650. If I can get at least 5Mbps-6Mbps down, I'd be extremely happy.

Are there any network geeks that can explain these specs a little further? Thanks!

It is listed as 14.4 down and 5.76 up.

I get between 2.2 and 2.6 Mbps down from my 9700 which is listed as 3.6 Mbps, so theoretically 5 - 6 Mbps should be possible, depending on the network in your area.

4G DOESNOT exist.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Originally Posted by stackberry369

4G DOESNOT exist.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Awww..... Does somebody need some attention?

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Originally Posted by sneekgeek

@lak611. Like I asked in my initial post, I didn't want this to be a debate on what true 4G is and isn't. That discussion is getting real old. The mislabeling of 4G is NOT going away, so let it go. I'm really just trying to find out how fast the download speeds on the new BB's will be. Just saying 4G is much "easier" to say than HSPA+ 14.4 or 21.1, since most major carriers have already adopted it. We can agree on that, right?

Anyways... So looking at the specs off of Phone Arena, the "cadillac" 9000 (my fav) and 9700 have a spec of "HSDPA 3.6Mbps", while the Bold Touch 9900 has "HSDPA 14.4Mbps". On my 9700 and work 9650, I never reached faster than 1.8Mbps. According to the Wikipedia article from Fubaz, the HSDPA (release 5, category 10) is capable of 14.4Mps. So in real life, will the Bold Touch 9900 have download speeds faster than the 9700/9650. If I can get at least 5Mbps-6Mbps down, I'd be extremely happy.

Are there any network geeks that can explain these specs a little further? Thanks!

Sorry. You specified "network geeks". To someone in the field, the definitions and standards do matter.

Originally Posted by DannyAves

It is listed as 14.4 down and 5.76 up.

I get between 2.2 and 2.6 Mbps down from my 9700 which is listed as 3.6 Mbps, so theoretically 5 - 6 Mbps should be possible, depending on the network in your area.

This is correct. Theoretically, those speeds should be possible. However, what is theoretical and what is actual may be widely different, depending on many conditions.

Originally Posted by lak611

Sorry. You specified "network geeks". To someone in the field, the definitions and standards do matter.



This is correct. Theoretically, those speeds should be possible. However, what is theoretical and what is actual may be widely different, depending on many conditions.

Even if the definitions and standards do matter to those very few specific people, that doesn't mean we need to have a discussion about them every time it's talked about.

Like it or not, they've labeled the HSPA+ network as 4G. The discussion was about the speeds not the label on those speeds. Thankfully you actually answered the question, though. I agree with the OP in that it just gets old.

In regards to the speed, though, I'm kind of getting the feeling that AT&T is limiting phones to 14.4Mbps. With the TMobile network talking about theoritical maxes going out to like 42Mbps soon and the new phones like the Galaxy S 4G having a 21Mbps radio yet the Atrix only has a 14.4Mbps radio? What's with that?

Originally Posted by breakmedown

Even if the definitions and standards do matter to those very few specific people, that doesn't mean we need to have a discussion about them every time it's talked about.

Like it or not, they've labeled the HSPA+ network as 4G. The discussion was about the speeds not the label on those speeds. Thankfully you actually answered the question, though. I agree with the OP in that it just gets old.

In regards to the speed, though, I'm kind of getting the feeling that AT&T is limiting phones to 14.4Mbps. With the TMobile network talking about theoritical maxes going out to like 42Mbps soon and the new phones like the Galaxy S 4G having a 21Mbps radio yet the Atrix only has a 14.4Mbps radio? What's with that?

According to these articles, the Atrix is only HSUPA, not HSPA+. AT&T to Uncripple Atrix, Inspire '4G' Upstream Capabilities - April Software Patch Will Deliver HSUPA Functionality | DSLReports.com, ISP Information

AT&T admits its 4G phones are throttled, will fix in April | ZDNet

However, this article shows HSPA+ capability.

So it appears that the speeds will still be throttled after the software update.

Bottom line: do not trust what the carriers promise.

Originally Posted by lak611

Sorry. You specified "network geeks". To someone in the field, the definitions and standards do matter.

Oh sheesh, nevermind. You win. Great job in getting the last word on a forum... ;)

But... Since you really wanna get on the 4G topic then, according to ITU's website, 4G "might" be applied to current LTE, WiMAX, and evolved 3G technologies, if they can show there is a significant amount level of improvement when first released. They left a little bit of wiggle room for today's current network technologies. There may be a "new" recommended spec in 2012. Source --> ITU Website link

As the most advanced technologies currently defined for global wireless mobile broadband communications, IMT-Advanced is considered as �4G�, although it is recognized that this term, while undefined, may also be applied to the forerunners of these technologies, LTE and WiMax, and to other evolved 3G technologies providing a substantial level of improvement in performance and capabilities with respect to the initial third generation systems now deployed. The detailed specifications of the IMT-Advanced technologies will be provided in a new ITU-R Recommendation expected in early 2012.

Yes, I have kept up on the topic, know how to read, and intelligent enough to form my own opinion. But regardless, you win... ;)

Anyhoos... I'm really excited for RIM to officially announce the whole BB line-up and lend more information! Hopefully soon.

Originally Posted by sneekgeek

Oh sheesh, nevermind. You win. Great job in getting the last word on a forum... ;)

But... Since you really wanna get on the 4G topic then, according to ITU's website, 4G "might" be applied to current LTE, WiMAX, and evolved 3G technologies, if they can show there is a significant amount level of improvement when first released. They left a little bit of wiggle room for today's current network technologies. There may be a "new" recommended spec in 2012. Source --> ITU Website link



Yes, I have kept up on the topic, know how to read, and intelligent enough to form my own opinion. But regardless, you win... ;)

Anyhoos... I'm really excited for RIM to officially announce the whole BB line-up and lend more information! Hopefully soon.

Realistically, I expect the ITU to take as long or longer to settle the "4G" issue once and for all than it took for the IEEE to finally define 802.11n.

As for the capabilities of the new BlackBerrys, Androids, whatever, the data speeds will probably be more limited by the carriers' networks than by the actual device hardware.

Ask a simple question and you get a ton of idiotic posters repeating 4G does not exist when it's pretty damn obvious what the OP was asking about - HSPA+, WiMax, or LTE radios in the newer BBs coming out...

Catastrophe...

Originally Posted by lak611

According to these articles, the Atrix is only HSUPA, not HSPA+. AT&T to Uncripple Atrix, Inspire '4G' Upstream Capabilities - April Software Patch Will Deliver HSUPA Functionality | DSLReports.com, ISP Information

AT&T admits its 4G phones are throttled, will fix in April | ZDNet

However, this article shows HSPA+ capability.

So it appears that the speeds will still be throttled after the software update.

Bottom line: do not trust what the carriers promise.

I remember reading a handful of articles (and possibly specifically those) around the release of the Atrix from over at AndroidCentral because there was a pretty big uproar about it.

I can understand some limits setforth by AT&T to make sure that the network isn't used and abused and to ensure quality for everyone. As I don't know much about the hardware vs software aspect, can firmware update the "speeds" that an HSPA+ radio can operate at? For example, could AT&T (or Motorola) go in and bump those speeds up to 21Mbps or so? I'm sure there's some kind of hardware cap on each radio itself , but are they already at it?