[Bbnivende]

The issue is value. The Motion was overpriced relative to other phones with the same processor and it had large bezels and a fair to average camera. A big battery is not enough for consumers. I think possibly BlackBerry should offer two levels of security . The higher level of security for Enterprise / prosumer and a Pixel level of security for consumers.

[Chuck Finley69]

I did say "bad launches" which was especially true for the Z30 but the Motion was competitive for its time. Bigger OEM's like Motorola and Xiaomi released Snapdragon 625 devices in the weeks before and after the Motion's launch. It certainly had other issues but I don't think its specs were necessarily a kiss of death.



I think a VKB device with a 4XX SOC could release at a much more affordable price point and could use the brand, software, etc to better justify any premium over similar devices. Budget devices like the Curve were extremely successful for BlackBerry in the past, especially in emerging markets where I think it can be argued that the brand is still seen positively. An affordable device for these markets that can also be a $0 on contract device for Western markets could be worth a shot.

HMD Global/Nokia had a really successful first year and their main 2017 devices were using the Snapdragon 430. They were able to leverage the brand, quality hardware, and their commitment to timely OS and monthly updates extremely well. In the same vein, Motorola's E and G line of devices don't compete with top specs either but were credited with reviving their marketshare in many markets.

https://www.digitaltrends.com/androi...rket-share-uk/



Not necessarily, the Ghost devices are rumoured for India so it's possible the VKB could find success with the other licensees.

I understand the product side. How do you get the carriers to handle the product and to inventory the product. The carriers are barely willing to carry the PKB devices. The carriers have no shortage of VKB device OEM suitors and BBMo isn’t one. When I speak of suitors, I mean OEMs not on the carrier shelves yet.

The carriers use the largest OEM in each OS as primary supplier. Then second and third largest OEMs in carrier sales volume fight it out and pay shelving costs to compete with each other based on what the primary OEM sales leader pays. This is why BBMo is so far down the list with their VKB. Even Nokia HMD isn’t found in NA carrier stores. Neither is Xiaomi, One Plus and other different second tier OEMs.

Look at the once mighty OEMs that are close to going under because the carriers don’t inventory the hardware. When the carriers want a BBMo VKB they’ll let BBMo know. The DTEK and the Motion shows how little a BBMo/TCL VKB device will sell without carrier support and with higher price due to licensing costs.

[bb10adopter111]

That’s why I’ve said, “At this point”. Unfortunately, the Motion isn’t competitive to consumers or whoever if the carriers won’t stock. I want to buy one and I won’t buy unlocked because I don’t get enhanced calling features with AT&T. Instead, Alcatel got $129 from me for A30 Plus Amazon phone while I waited to see Motion quality. I agree that VKB is very important. How do you propose that BBMo gets VKB devices on shelves again the incumbent devices?

Their are only two ways to get any retailer to carry a product: 1) make the product offering compelling by demonstrating demand and pricing so that the retailer is guaranteed a profit; and 2) bundle the product with others that the retailer wants to carry, son that they are compelled to offer shelf space as part of their purchase price.

So, BBMo either has to build demand for a VKB phone via marketing, press coverage, etc., or it must make its PKB line successful enough that retailers will allow them to bundle VKBs in order to carry the PKB line.

There is a third option: financial incentives, whereby the manufacturer essentially guarantees that the product will be more profitable than other options that the retailer has, but that's probably not an option TCL would consider.

Posted with my trusty Z10

[Chuck Finley69]

Their are only two ways to get any retailer to carry a product: 1) make the product offering compelling by demonstrating demand and pricing so that the retailer is guaranteed a profit; and 2) bundle the product with others that the retailer wants to carry, son that they are compelled to offer shelf space as part of their purchase price.

So, BBMo either has to build demand for a VKB phone via marketing, press coverage, etc., or it must make its PKB line successful enough that retailers will allow them to bundle VKBs in order to carry the PKB line.

There is a third option: financial incentives, whereby the manufacturer essentially guarantees that the product will be more profitable than other options that the retailer has, but that's probably not an option TCL would consider.

Posted with my trusty Z10

You are correct and it’s obvious that BBMo/TCL is following your bundling strategy. Whether it’s BBMo or Alcatel brand for VKB is question. With AT&T, it seems that Alcatel has foot in door with prepaid devices and BBMo with postpaid devices. Seems that way across the carrier industry. People seem to pay for the BBMo option for the PKB more than BBAndroid.

[Bbnivende]

I do not think that The USA carriers would sell BlackBerry at all except for the small demand from the Enterprise sector. The sales are small but important. These sales are demand driven but there appears to be little demand by Enterprise for a BlackBerry VKB.

[Invictus0]

The issue is value. The Motion was overpriced relative to other phones with the same processor and it had large bezels and a fair to average camera. A big battery is not enough for consumers. I think possibly BlackBerry should offer two levels of security . The higher level of security for Enterprise / prosumer and a Pixel level of security for consumers.

Of course, the high cost and slow rollout of the device didn't help at all. The battery and IP67 rating would have been differentiating factors but they still had to overcome a ~$150-200 price difference at retail.

I understand the product side. How do you get the carriers to handle the product and to inventory the product. The carriers are barely willing to carry the PKB devices. The carriers have no shortage of VKB device OEM suitors and BBMo isn’t one. When I speak of suitors, I mean OEMs not on the carrier shelves yet.

The carriers use the largest OEM in each OS as primary supplier. Then second and third largest OEMs in carrier sales volume fight it out and pay shelving costs to compete with each other based on what the primary OEM sales leader pays. This is why BBMo is so far down the list with their VKB. Even Nokia HMD isn’t found in NA carrier stores. Neither is Xiaomi, One Plus and other different second tier OEMs.

Look at the once mighty OEMs that are close to going under because the carriers don’t inventory the hardware. When the carriers want a BBMo VKB they’ll let BBMo know. The DTEK and the Motion shows how little a BBMo/TCL VKB device will sell without carrier support and with higher price due to licensing costs.

I think they'll have to start small before giving US carriers another shot (their support isn't as bad in Canada, not sure about Europe, Africa, etc), at the end of the day they're basically rebuilding the VKB brand. Motorola and Nokia saw a lot of success through online sales and retail partnerships but I'm sure the success of this strategy would rely heavily on price.

This may seem counterproductive but if BlackBerry branded devices only sold around 800k units worldwide last year, every sale helps.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

This may seem counterproductive but if BlackBerry branded devices only sold around 800k units worldwide last year, every sale helps.

Based on what... BBMo hasn't released any numbers (AFAIK) and the only number out there is an unsupported number from some analyst. Didn't say if he had a credible inside source, someway to check channels movements or if it was just a wild guess.

But normally I'd say US Carrier's are huge, and they aren't interested in small. But Verizon is supporting the not yet launched or really seen RED HYDROGEN ONE, top model is suppose to be $1,600..... so Verizon isn't apposed to supporting small niches. They and AT&T must really have liked what they have seen so far.

Another VKB phone really depends on if enterprise interest is there for Android Secure. Plain and simply BBMo can't compete on hardware without some sort of "lock", PKB was one. They had hoped that Android Secure would be one too - but I suspect that most of IT see iOS as the security leader with Samsung's KNOX as the follow up. BlackBerry's not worth considering as they are an unknown factor when it comes to devices, pricing, updates or the future.

[Troy Tiscareno]

They had hoped that Android Secure would be one too - but I suspect that most of IT see iOS as the security leader with Samsung's KNOX as the follow up. BlackBerry's not worth considering as they are an unknown factor when it comes to devices, pricing, updates or the future.

And both Apple and Samsung spend a LOT of money to educate and "woo" those IT decision-makers, as well as to respond to their needs. While BB may still hold a leadership position security-wise, Apple and Samsung (and Google with Android overall) have significantly closed the gap. When the gap was huge, BB was a much easier sell, but with the gap being so much smaller today (and still closing), most IT buyers aren't all that concerned about what BB is doing.

Working with the market leaders - who are highly profitable and will definitely be staying in the market long-term - is a whole lot easier to justify than working with a third-party BB licensee who is 2 years into a 5 year contract and is struggling overall. Enterprise/government thinks long-term, and that's been a big problem for BB smartphones ever since the fall of 2013 and the "for sale" sign.

[Invictus0]

Based on what... BBMo hasn't released any numbers (AFAIK) and the only number out there is an unsupported number from some analyst. Didn't say if he had a credible inside source, someway to check channels movements or if it was just a wild guess.

IDC has a really good track record with shipment estimates so there's little reason to doubt it wasn't supported by data or that the number is wildly off. I don't believe any licensee has publicly disputed the numbers either.

That being said, from what Chen has said in the past about their royalty per phone I'm sure someone could make another estimate by going through their financial reports.

Another VKB phone really depends on if enterprise interest is there for Android Secure. Plain and simply BBMo can't compete on hardware without some sort of "lock", PKB was one. They had hoped that Android Secure would be one too - but I suspect that most of IT see iOS as the security leader with Samsung's KNOX as the follow up. BlackBerry's not worth considering as they are an unknown factor when it comes to devices, pricing, updates or the future.

I'm not sure if BB Android has had any major enterprise wins or if BB Android has matched BB10's certifications yet (it wasn't the case last year during the Canadian government announcement). If they're still catching up, BB Mobile might have to rely more on consumer interest than enterprise for the immediate future.

Or bring back BB10 of course.

[Chuck Finley69]

Of course, the high cost and slow rollout of the device didn't help at all. The battery and IP67 rating would have been differentiating factors but they still had to overcome a ~$150-200 price difference at retail.



I think they'll have to start small before giving US carriers another shot (their support isn't as bad in Canada, not sure about Europe, Africa, etc), at the end of the day they're basically rebuilding the VKB brand. Motorola and Nokia saw a lot of success through online sales and retail partnerships but I'm sure the success of this strategy would rely heavily on price.

This may seem counterproductive but if BlackBerry branded devices only sold around 800k units worldwide last year, every sale helps.

How much smaller can you go than zero? No USA carrier handled the Motion. Canada is a good test indicator for the USA carriers from sales data on carriers in Canada. If device sells well in Canada, factor of 3x-4x is safe as initial order. Poor sales as % of total carrier volume determines worthwhile or not. The Motion failed in Canada just as DTEK. The market for VKB devices is strong in terms of factor vs PKB, just not for BBMo. They’re building a VKB brand not rebuilding. They’ve never had a successful VKB in their history.

[Invictus0]

How much smaller can you go than zero? No USA carrier handled the Motion. Canada is a good test indicator for the USA carriers from sales data on carriers in Canada. If device sells well in Canada, factor of 3x-4x is safe as initial order. Poor sales as % of total carrier volume determines worthwhile or not. The Motion failed in Canada just as DTEK. The market for VKB devices is strong in terms of factor vs PKB, just not for BBMo. They’re building a VKB brand not rebuilding. They’ve never had a successful VKB in their history.

There's no way BB Mobile can successfully deal with carriers out of the gate IMO, they'll have to deal with the carrier partners they do have and work with retailers to rebuild demand and buzz for these devices among consumers.

To some extent this applies to PKB devices as well but you can't announce devices with far out release windows and limited availability and still expect potential buyers to stick around. We've seen this happen on CrackBerry, how many active and longtime posters got tired of waiting and simply switched brands?

[THBW]

Problem is that for TCL Communications... phones aren't low margin, they were costing them money. We really don't know where they are financially now, but it is pretty clear that with the BlackBerry Brand they want a premium, and that was only really going to work with Enterprise. Now they have a much smaller PKB market that they hope is enough.

PKB Market... I think will depend on where the KEY2 Lite is priced. As I doubt KEYtwo sales will come anywhere close to KEYone sales. But if they could get the price for the KEY2 Lite down to say $400 or less, that might open the door to a new group of "fans".

Couldn't disagree more. I have no doubt the keytwo will surpass the keyone. It is plainly evident that TCL put money into the redesign and it is a far far better device. Reviews are good and let's face it the all glass market has about as much excitement as lawn maintenance. Times are changing.

Posted via CB10

[Carjackd]

Here's your Grey Poupon. Where should I stick it?

Like I need to give you suggestions

[Bbnivende]

Couldn't disagree more. I have no doubt the keytwo will surpass the keyone. It is plainly evident that TCL put money into the redesign and it is a far far better device. Reviews are good and let's face it the all glass market has about as much excitement as lawn maintenance. Times are changing.

Posted via CB10

I think that the screen popping really hurt the potential sales of the Keyone.

I do think that a PRIV replacement has the potential to sell well. The form factor was not the problem. A PRIV 2 might be accepted by USA carriers and could later be followed by an all touch.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Couldn't disagree more. I have no doubt the keytwo will surpass the keyone. It is plainly evident that TCL put money into the redesign and it is a far far better device. Reviews are good and let's face it the all glass market has about as much excitement as lawn maintenance. Times are changing.

Posted via CB10

Times are changing.... based on what?

KEYone had an advantage of coming to market when there hadn't been a dedicated PKB released in several year, and when the end of BB10 was pretty clear.

KEYtwo is coming to market with a much higher price and with users demand for a PKB having been filled. Sure some will upgrade to a better phone, and there are still some BBOS and BB10 hold outs, and maybe some past fans of PKB will come back.

Truth is I'd expect the lower cost KEYtwo Lite to see more opportunity than the KEYtwo will.... if the price is low enough to make it an option in some overseas markets where BB once was well known.