[Azazelle]

I have downloaded a 3-day trial from the Handango site. Application looks beautiful, but it is unable to acquire my position indoors with no direct view of the sky. The message on top shows �Acquiring satellites�� VZNav application can handle indoors just fine, as long as there is a cell reception � most likely due to A-GPS positioning.

So, has indoors location worked for anybody else in Garmin? Or is the application usable only when you have clear shot of the skies above?

[psufan5]

I did not like the garmin at all. Once in a while driving, it would ghost and show me floating off into nothingness. It does this every time i go the same route home from work. My VZ Nav is faster, easier to read, less buggy, and more accurate.

Not impressed with the garmin software at all. I have a garmin nuvi I can use if I got on a trip and lose cell coverage. So far, Verizon seems to have coverage anywhere I would travel so.

I also dont believe it uses the A-GPS feature, only VZ NAV.

[bottoj]

VZNav is able to acquire a location because it uses cell-only signals. GPS on the other hand, needs a clear view of the sky in order to acquire a location.

You see, the reasoning behind that is a GPS satellite constantly sends three types of information: the time the signal was sent, where it was sent from, and the relative location of all other satellites. When your receiver, the Storm in this case, receives these signals, it decodes them, and using the speed of light, is able to determine where it is on the Earth relative to the little buggers in the sky.

These little buggers also vary in number depending on time of day, i.e. rotation of the earth.



VZNav works similarly, using the triangulation of nearby cell towers.

[Mr Bigs]

Garmin doesn't use AGPS which gives a strong edge to VZ Nav plus it has more useful features.

[imann101]

I would really like the garmin application if you were able to download the maps to the phone. I talked to someone at garmin and said that they offer it for other phone platforms but not the blackberry because of OS compatibility issues. I just cant justify $100 for something like this when amazegps, nav4all, google maps (when working properly) etc. are free


but I do agree it is a nice looking program

[GpCaptMandrake]

VZNav is able to acquire a location because it uses cell-only signals. GPS on the other hand, needs a clear view of the sky in order to acquire a location.

Close but no cigar.

Cell triangulation is only accurate to about a mile. VZNav uses cell triangulation so that the GPS knows where to look for the satellites. It results in a much faster GPS lock. It's still a GPS lock though.

Whether or not the non VZNav apps are able to use the initial cell tower lock has been a matter of some debate. Google Maps can access the cell tower triangulation, but doesn't get a GPS lock. If VZNav didn't use the GPS, that's how accurate it would be.

[psufan5]

I think you guys dont know how AGPS works.. They both use GPS, but AGPS allows it to find you FASTER. It doesnt use AGPS for your navigation, its using the GPS chip. The garmin is NOT better at finding you than VZ Nav if it doesnt use AGPS for its initial lookup.

[JRSCCivic98]

VZNav is able to acquire a location because it uses cell-only signals. GPS on the other hand, needs a clear view of the sky in order to acquire a location. VZNav works similarly, using the triangulation of nearby cell towers.

Wow, couldn't be further from the truth. No wonder there's so many people out there that are misinformed. Please stop posting this sort of stuff and listen to Mandrake is saying right above me.

[psufan5]

VZ nav for me is 100% better.

[chasvs]

Garmin doesn't use AGPS which gives a strong edge to VZ Nav plus it has more useful features.

I beg to disagree. The Garmin on the Storm does use AGPS. I can get a signal in my house with the Storm, but nothing with either of my Garmin Nuvis.

[Azazelle]

I would really like the garmin application if you were able to download the maps to the phone. I talked to someone at garmin and said that they offer it for other phone platforms but not the blackberry because of OS compatibility issues. I just cant justify $100 for something like this when amazegps, nav4all, google maps (when working properly) etc. are free


but I do agree it is a nice looking program

Alright, I confirmed by trying to get a lock in multiple locations - Garmin does NOT utilize AGPS when deeply indoors (like VZ Nav does). I am intrigued by amazegps and nav4all and will give both a try right away.

Also, once Google patches Maps to work on the Storm with GPS (in addition to AGPS), it will be a strong contender.

[geewhipped]

I beg to disagree. The Garmin on the Storm does use AGPS. I can get a signal in my house with the Storm, but nothing with either of my Garmin Nuvis.

agreed. Garmin on the storm finds me in my office but no other GPS can. it must use SOME cell-tower info because I sure as **** don't have a view of the sky, i'm in the basement.

[Azazelle]

Alright, here is annoying and somewhat confusing truth :-)

1. AmazeGPS, Nav4all, Garmin � do not utilize AGPS. Which means if you are deep indoors with great cell reception but not a clear view of the sky � none of these will work.

2. Google Maps � utilizes AGPS, but not GPS � which means it will triangulate your position by cell towers but will not give you precision of true GPS positioning even when you havea clear shot of the skies.

3. VZNav � uses BOTH GPS and AGPS, which means it will closely approximate your location even when indoors, and will acquire your precise coordinates outdoors once it locks on the satellite signal.

Conclusion: if you do not care about Storm knowing your location when indoors, go with batch #1. If you do not care about precise outdoors positioning, batch #2 is great.

For those who wants full utility no matter the location � go with VZNav.

PS. I tried Garmin indoors, kept looking for satellites for 30 mins -- no dice. It definitely does not use AGPS. Even basements have windows -- maybe satellite signals can sneak indoors sometimes, but it is not consistent/ reliable enough like VZNav for example, where if it gets cell signal, it knows where I am rigth away.

[VT_Hokie]

amAze looks nice but it's impossible to use. There is no way to scroll through the list to select the correct state.

[JRSCCivic98]

2. Google Maps � utilizes AGPS, but not GPS � which means it will triangulate your position by cell towers but will not give you precision of true GPS positioning even when you havea clear shot of the skies.

This is totally incorrect. The "My Location Beta" is not aGPS. Not even close!!! You guys still don't get what aGPS is. IT IS NOT CELL TOWER TRIANGULATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Azazelle]

This is totally incorrect. The "My Location Beta" is not aGPS. Not even close!!! You guys still don't get what aGPS is. IT IS NOT CELL TOWER TRIANGULATION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Alright, a bit of research shows that you are not correct. I will not debate you on this, will only mention that there is no single correct/ absolute definition of what AGPS stands for. Anybody can use Google -- please do the same prior to refuting others. Here is an example of AGPS definition (from wikipedia):

========================================
An A-GPS receiver can address these problems in several ways, using an assistance server:

The assistance server can locate the phone roughly by which cell site it is connected to on the cellular network.
The assistance server has a good satellite signal, and lots of computation power, so it can compare fragmentary signals relayed to it by cell phones, with the satellite signal it receives directly, and then inform the cell phone or emergency services of the cell phone's position.
It can supply orbital data for the GPS satellites to the cell phone, enabling the cell phone to lock to the satellites when it otherwise could not, and autonomously calculate its position.
Simply capturing a brief snapshot of the GPS signal, with approximate time, for the server to later process into a position.[2]
By having accurate, surveyed coordinates for the cell site towers, it can have better knowledge of ionospheric conditions and other errors affecting the GPS signal than the cell phone alone, enabling more precise calculation of position. (See also Wide Area Augmentation System)
As an additional benefit, it can reduce both the amount of CPU and programming required for a GPS phone by offloading most of the work onto the assistance server. (This is not a large amount for a basic GPS � many early GPSs utilized Intel 80386-class 16MHz CPUs or similar hardware.)

A typical A-GPS-enabled cell phone will use a data connection (internet, or other) to contact the assistance server. Alternatively, it may use standard non-assisted GPS, which is slower and less accurate, but does not lead to network charges for data traffic, which can be considerable.[3] Some A-GPS solutions do not have the option of falling back to conventional GPS (as with the new iPhone 3G).
========================================

[BlackCuse8830]

I did not like the garmin at all. Once in a while driving, it would ghost and show me floating off into nothingness.

Perhaps it is time to update the software. I know with my Nuvi, I need to download updates to it. These updates are not available OTA (at least on my model, I don't know about others.) As far as their BB software, I wouldn't trust it yet. Garmin is great, but i would give them some time, like all other program publishers, to work out the bugs.

[bottoj]

Wow, couldn't be further from the truth. No wonder there's so many people out there that are misinformed. Please stop posting this sort of stuff and listen to Mandrake is saying right above me.

No need to call me out like that, I was just trying to be helpful. The point of having a forum is so that others, as well as myself, can gain a better understanding of things. I now realize I was misinformed, and now I know how AGPS really works. Thanks.

[JRSCCivic98]

aGPS works in conjuction with a PDE server. There are no misconceptions there. However, that PDE server will hand the device the SAT location data to get a close lock. You WILL NEVER see aGPS shoot out an approxmiate location of more then a few meters (as in less the 10). aGPS is in today's world used to boost the time it takes for a first lock to GPS SATs. This happens because the PDE server is much faster at this.

Google Maps has never had aGPS usage in it's native "My Location Beta" capabilities. That whole location technology is truly cell tower based and works along the line of knowing which cell tower your phone is connected to and calulating an approximate distance you're from it based on the handsets signal strength. The cell tower location is indicated by the center of the dot. That's why you get a radial circle... because it can calculate approximate distance from tower, but not direction (since signal strength has no indication of direction, only distance from tower vs. handset radio capabilities). The My Location Beta system also depends upon Google's MLB servers knowing the exact location of all cell towers for each provider. This data can change from time to time if the carriers put up new towers or switch towers for client provisioning, etc. This is why sometimes, the dot is not exactly where the tower that you're really connected to is.

[psufan5]

Perhaps it is time to update the software. I know with my Nuvi, I need to download updates to it. These updates are not available OTA (at least on my model, I don't know about others.) As far as their BB software, I wouldn't trust it yet. Garmin is great, but i would give them some time, like all other program publishers, to work out the bugs.

I was referring to the garmin software on my BB, not my Nuvi. My nuvi is flawless, but I dont like carrying 2 devices.

[GpCaptMandrake]

Civ is exactly right on this.

I have found that the GPS antenna on the Storm is VERY good. Even by expensive, dedicated GPS standards. The whole "clear view of the sky" is not exactly true... depending upon how good the GPS receiver is. Can you get FM radio inside your house? Same concept.

If you have a lock within three meters of your actual location AND when you move the device tracks your movement, you've got a GPS lock, even if you're in a basement. Cell tower triangulation is not that accurate and it cannot track.

[Corporatetrainer]

I dropped VZNav because if you are "roaming" it does not work. Jumped in my rental car in Lufkin TX in the middle of the night last fall and found thatVZNav will not work if you are roaming out of Verizon's area. Talk about being pissed!! LOL

[psufan5]

I dropped VZNav because if you are "roaming" it does not work. Jumped in my rental car in Lufkin TX in the middle of the night last fall and found thatVZNav will not work if you are roaming out of Verizon's area. Talk about being pissed!! LOL

No cell phone GPS will work if you have no cell signal. It might still direct you, but you wont see the maps.

[JimA]

I seem to have that problem with Garmin. There's a Verizon dead zone about 15 miles from my home. When I drive through it and loose Verizon directly Garmin locks up even though I have a roaming signal and can still place calls.

[johnmeld]

The A in AGPS stands for Assisted GPS it came with the FCC mandated 911 rule to locate your physical location when calling 911. it is basically enhances the functionality of the regular GPS. Very often cellular network towers have GPS receivers (or a base station nearby) and those receivers are constantly pulling down satellite information and computing the data. This data is then passed on to the cellular phone (when requested) and acts like a “cheat” since the relevant satellites to your location are already identified and all that GPS computations is handled by 3rd party computers. By this process you will have faster location acquisition, your device will need less processing power and finally your location can be acquired indoors as long as you have cellular reception. In plain words it is a basic GPS with a cellular assistance.