1. Invictus0's Avatar
    Ford's betting big on Android to power its future in-car technologies. On Monday, the automaker announced a new partnership with Google that will see the tech giant's Android operating system power future Ford vehicles. The digital experience will begin rolling out to new Ford and Lincoln cars in 2023 and provide Google services built directly into the car. For Blackberry faithful, that means saying goodbye to QNX, which powered Sync for years now.
    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/f...-infotainment/
    02-01-21 11:27 AM
  2. conite's Avatar
    I think that's why BlackBerry has been moving more toward the self-driving / AI end of the car market lately. The infotainment market is saturated and extremely low margin.
    dusdal and bakron1 like this.
    02-01-21 11:36 AM
  3. Invictus0's Avatar
    I think that's why BlackBerry has been moving more toward the self-driving / AI end of the car market lately. The infotainment market is saturated and extremely low margin.
    They were one of the first in the Infotainment market but I think that's a fair assumption. It's "consumer facing" and BlackBerry has pretty much left that segment over the years.

    Funny enough, this article is directly below the Ford story.

    https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/b...e-chinese-evs/
    conite likes this.
    02-01-21 11:44 AM
  4. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    I think that's why BlackBerry has been moving more toward the self-driving / AI end of the car market lately. The infotainment market is saturated and extremely low margin.
    Yeah it sounds like just the User Interface.... very well could still be QNX powering dozens of systems on new Fords. And with SYNC being a FORD product, I bet it was a low margin licensing deal. But then I think most everything about QNX is pretty small numbers for BlackBerry.
    dusdal likes this.
    02-01-21 02:04 PM
  5. eshropshire's Avatar
    Yeah it sounds like just the User Interface.... very well could still be QNX powering dozens of systems on new Fords. And with SYNC being a FORD product, I bet it was a low margin licensing deal. But then I think most everything about QNX is pretty small numbers for BlackBerry.
    Actually they answered a question specifically about the QNX and Ford said QNX is being replaced in the new system. The 2023 Ford Infotainment systems will be powered by Android OS, replacing QNX. The new system will still support Apple CarPlay and Alexa.

    The big change is you have Android native in the car and will run without Android phone. The Verge has a pretty detailed article about the announcement. Bottom line, BlackBerry QNX is on the way out at Ford.
    02-01-21 06:44 PM
  6. app_Developer's Avatar
    QNX is on its way out at all the biggest manufacturers. I expect we'll see more announcements like this over the next couple of years, and silent moves as well from large companies who are quietly moving to in-house software instead.
    02-01-21 06:54 PM
  7. eldricho's Avatar
    I think that's why BlackBerry has been moving more toward the self-driving / AI end of the car market lately. The infotainment market is saturated and extremely low margin.
    You might be on to something there. Atleast - if that is the case - they are thinking ahead instead of catching up in last place again
    02-01-21 07:11 PM
  8. bh7171's Avatar
    Actually they answered a question specifically about the QNX and Ford said QNX is being replaced in the new system. The 2023 Ford Infotainment systems will be powered by Android OS, replacing QNX. The new system will still support Apple CarPlay and Alexa.

    The big change is you have Android native in the car and will run without Android phone. The Verge has a pretty detailed article about the announcement. Bottom line, BlackBerry QNX is on the way out at Ford.
    So will Ford's now only be supported for 3 years OS versions and security? Damn! Now our cars are throw away tech items...
    02-01-21 07:22 PM
  9. eshropshire's Avatar
    So will Ford's now only be supported for 3 years OS versions and security? Damn! Now our cars are throw away tech items...
    Maybe they will work with Samsung on security updates, I get four years of security updates.
    02-01-21 08:17 PM
  10. eshropshire's Avatar
    I wonder what Ford will do with the 400 QNX engineers they hired from BlackBerry?
    02-01-21 08:19 PM
  11. Invictus0's Avatar
    QNX is on its way out at all the biggest manufacturers. I expect we'll see more announcements like this over the next couple of years, and silent moves as well from large companies who are quietly moving to in-house software instead.
    That's a shame, it feels like QNX has lost a lot of ground in recent years. Not that it's easy but I wonder if the solution might be to open source it again?
    02-01-21 11:26 PM
  12. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    It won't really matter. AGL (Automotive-Grade Linux) has been getting all of the development dollars, and it's caught up/surpassed QNX, which only has BB to fund it. The difference is that a Ford or a VW will have access to the source code of AGL, and little or no licensing costs, which puts them in a far stronger position than licensing QNX, where they have more risk and less control.
    Invictus0 likes this.
    02-02-21 01:34 AM
  13. bakron1's Avatar
    It won't really matter. AGL (Automotive-Grade Linux) has been getting all of the development dollars, and it's caught up/surpassed QNX, which only has BB to fund it. The difference is that a Ford or a VW will have access to the source code of AGL, and little or no licensing costs, which puts them in a far stronger position than licensing QNX, where they have more risk and less control.
    Very true and in the automotive sector where I spent the majority of my career, he who gets the most funding wins the battles, but not always the wars.

    It’s all about getting more for less and anytime they can get away from long time licensing agreements, they make that a top priority.
    Invictus0 and Laura Knotek like this.
    02-02-21 05:15 AM
  14. app_Developer's Avatar
    That's a shame, it feels like QNX has lost a lot of ground in recent years. Not that it's easy but I wonder if the solution might be to open source it again?
    Maybe a little late for that one, but I personally think it wouldn't hurt and it might even help.

    Part of the issue is the vendor risk. Nobody would be surprised if BB were bought or broken up and bought/sold. Linux can never be bought by some competitor of ours, so it is lower risk from that perspective.

    the other issue is that QNX has fallen so far behind. It's not entirely their fault, because so many thousands of people work on Linux and Android, etc. Even Nvidia has more people working on auto than BB has now, because BB has become so small. So that's one issue, but I will also add that I do see the same hubris, the "we are the smartest people in the world" attitude from BB now that we saw in phones. That seems to be part of the culture up there and it's not helping. I wonder if they can even see themselves how far QNX has fallen behind.

    On the other hand, it will take a very long time for QNX to fade away in the auto industry, because so much was built on it before. I would think it will slowly fade over the next 10-15 years (as different model lines are replaced). So this is not an urgent issue for BB, but I am glad they are investing in Cylance because that is potentially a much stronger future for them,
    02-02-21 08:55 AM
  15. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Maybe a little late for that one, but I personally think it wouldn't hurt and it might even help.

    Part of the issue is the vendor risk. Nobody would be surprised if BB were bought or broken up and bought/sold. Linux can never be bought by some competitor of ours, so it is lower risk from that perspective.

    the other issue is that QNX has fallen so far behind. It's not entirely their fault, because so many thousands of people work on Linux and Android, etc. Even Nvidia has more people working on auto than BB has now, because BB has become so small. So that's one issue, but I will also add that I do see the same hubris, the "we are the smartest people in the world" attitude from BB now that we saw in phones. That seems to be part of the culture up there and it's not helping. I wonder if they can even see themselves how far QNX has fallen behind.

    On the other hand, it will take a very long time for QNX to fade away in the auto industry, because so much was built on it before. I would think it will slowly fade over the next 10-15 years (as different model lines are replaced). So this is not an urgent issue for BB, but I am glad they are investing in Cylance because that is potentially a much stronger future for them,
    I bet the Ford news woke a few of them up... But they have know about that for months and months, most likely why they made the announcement about IVY so early on. Kind of give hope that they can transition and still be relevant as an automotive services supplier.

    Timelines.... who know where we will be. I'm still waiting on my personal robot, flying car and astronauts on mars that were all suppose to come with 2020.

    Battery tech could really change things.... if what half some of these startups are claiming are true.
    02-02-21 10:23 AM
  16. eshropshire's Avatar

    Timelines.... who know where we will be. I'm still waiting on my personal robot, flying car and astronauts on mars that were all suppose to come with 2020.
    May have to wait 2 years - https://qz.com/1956157/fiat-chrysler...-cars-by-2023/
    02-02-21 12:04 PM
  17. app_Developer's Avatar
    I bet the Ford news woke a few of them up... But they have know about that for months and months, most likely why they made the announcement about IVY so early on. Kind of give hope that they can transition and still be relevant as an automotive services supplier.
    I would hope BB know where the big companies are going with all of this. I would hope they are talking about this internally. I would hope they aren't repeating what we all read in "Losing the Signal".

    But what perplexes me is why they keep telling investors that they have a plan to increase the licensing revenue per vehicle. For most of their existing customers (which are in fact the largest manufacturers today), that revenue per unit number is not going to increase when those same customers are already planning their moves past QNX. BB simply has no leverage in those licensing conversations.

    They have more leverage with Tier 1 vendors, but those vendors are themselves losing leverage with manufacturers very quickly.
    02-02-21 12:47 PM
  18. Invictus0's Avatar
    the other issue is that QNX has fallen so far behind. It's not entirely their fault, because so many thousands of people work on Linux and Android, etc. Even Nvidia has more people working on auto than BB has now, because BB has become so small. So that's one issue, but I will also add that I do see the same hubris, the "we are the smartest people in the world" attitude from BB now that we saw in phones. That seems to be part of the culture up there and it's not helping. I wonder if they can even see themselves how far QNX has fallen behind.
    That's a good point, it's at a much different scale but it's hard not to see parallels between BlackBerry's Infotainment position today and smartphones a decade ago.
    02-02-21 03:59 PM
  19. Troy Tiscareno's Avatar
    Tesla's been a huge disrupter too. Instead of dozens of separate modules all provided by different subcontractors, Tesla has everything controlled by a single (but redundant) computer that they build in-house, and the few additional modules and controls are built in-house. This means they control the entire process, can make changes very quickly, and have much less risk. The other car manufacturers know this, and you can bet that they're going to transition away from all of their legacy relationships and follow the Tesla model as quickly as they can - which isn't quickly, but still in the works.

    You can bet that their long-term plans aren't going to include paying licensing fees if they can be avoided.
    app_Developer likes this.
    02-02-21 08:40 PM
  20. Invictus0's Avatar
    Dug up some old numbers which might be of interest given this news.

    BlackBerry could earn licensing fees of $5 to $25 per car with advanced self-driving technology, up from the $1.50 to $5 it earns for just providing infotainment systems, Chen said on an analyst call.
    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1C31GU

    By comparison, they were making $10-15 from licensing BB Android.

    https://forums.crackberry.com/blackb...-bb10-1139865/
    02-02-21 10:55 PM
  21. eshropshire's Avatar
    Dug up some old numbers which might be of interest given this news.



    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...-idUSKCN1C31GU

    By comparison, they were making $10-15 from licensing BB Android.

    https://forums.crackberry.com/blackb...-bb10-1139865/
    Interesting information. I wonder how much Ford was paying BlackBerry for QNX. Ford hired 400 QNX engineers when they licensed QNX. I wonder if they just took a fork of the code and did their own thing to save on licensing fees.

    The BB Android information is interesting.
    02-03-21 05:41 PM
  22. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Interesting information. I wonder how much Ford was paying BlackBerry for QNX. Ford hired 400 QNX engineers when they licensed QNX. I wonder if they just took a fork of the code and did their own thing to save on licensing fees.

    The BB Android information is interesting.
    100% Ford deal was for a lot less per unit than someone like LandRover that was using a more complete package. But then volume from Ford would have probable made their contract more valuable than someone like LandRover that make FAR fewer units.

    But then Ford has figured out what the cost will be going forward... and thus they are making a move away from QNX now.
    02-04-21 08:36 AM
  23. app_Developer's Avatar
    100% Ford deal was for a lot less per unit than someone like LandRover that was using a more complete package. But then volume from Ford would have probable made their contract more valuable than someone like LandRover that make FAR fewer units.

    But then Ford has figured out what the cost will be going forward... and thus they are making a move away from QNX now.
    Maybe cost, but it's also capabilities. This is where Tesla doesn't get enough credit for waking the rest of us up. Tesla used modern development platforms and tools because they approached the problem like a tech company would. We know that was a big advantage for them.

    Now that came with some bad choices also! But it made the rest of us say "what if we combine the good parts of what Tesla has done with the good parts of what we know how to do".

    QNX ecosystem has fallen so far behind that most of us are better off using more up-to-date, flexible tools. I'm sure that was a big part of the conversation at Ford, just like it has been at Toyota, Daimler, VAG, Hyundai, etc.
    Dunt Dunt Dunt and pdr733 like this.
    02-04-21 08:42 AM
  24. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Maybe cost, but it's also capabilities. This is where Tesla doesn't get enough credit for waking the rest of us up. Tesla used modern development platforms and tools because they approached the problem like a tech company would. We know that was a big advantage for them.

    Now that came with some bad choices also! But it made the rest of us say "what if we combine the good parts of what Tesla has done with the good parts of what we know how to do".

    QNX ecosystem has fallen so far behind that most of us are better off using more up-to-date, flexible tools. I'm sure that was a big part of the conversation at Ford, just like it has been at Toyota, Daimler, VAG, Hyundai, etc.
    And I guess a big advantage as well, is with AGL or just Linux.... you aren't as stuck with depending on development of the kernel or tools by a company that is running on a limited budget or that might be sold.

    If QNX did get sold to someone like Samsung (also big in automotive), and they pushed millions into it's development and the tools used by developers. The licensing cost might not be as big of a concern as the improving capabilities and the creditability of the company behind the kernel. But then BB goes private or some investment group buys them and they don't do anymore than BlackBerry...
    02-04-21 09:01 AM
  25. app_Developer's Avatar
    And I guess a big advantage as well, is with AGL or just Linux.... you aren't as stuck with depending on development of the kernel or tools by a company that is running on a limited budget or that might be sold.

    If QNX did get sold to someone like Samsung (also big in automotive), and they pushed millions into it's development and the tools used by developers. The licensing cost might not be as big of a concern as the improving capabilities and the creditability of the company behind the kernel. But then BB goes private or some investment group buys them and they don't do anymore than BlackBerry...
    Exactly. Huge vendor risk.

    And the biggest issue people need to understand is that tens of thousands of highly qualified engineering work on automotive systems all over the world now. QNX team is a just a tiny drop now in a big ocean. The world is moving quickly around them, and really past them.
    pdr733 likes this.
    02-04-21 09:36 AM

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