1. gugomat's Avatar
    Just a regular Apple's PR lie for a naive users to be happy. This scandal is worth nothing. FBI asked Apple to get an information from an old drowned device, not even taking the device out of the Apple's corporate campus. Apple behaved like a regular bully rejecting the request.

    All the story was to get the information from the device inside the Apple's labs and pass ONLY the information to the FBI. This is normal, IMHO.
    Why Apple behaved like that? Because they need to take the focus out of TWO BIG PROBLEMS with there own OS: "the 1970" scandal and the "Error 53" problem.
    Any other company, either Google or Microsoft or, especially, BlackBerry would be crucified in the same case. Not Apple.
    Until when Apple is gonna be an untouchable sheep?
    02-20-16 12:31 AM
  2. LazyEvul's Avatar
    All the story was to get the information from the device inside the Apple's labs and pass ONLY the information to the FBI. This is normal, IMHO.
    Why Apple behaved like that? Because they need to take the focus out of TWO BIG PROBLEMS with there own OS: "the 1970" scandal and the "Error 53" problem.
    That's not at all what the FBI asked for - they're asking Apple to build a forensics tool that would make brute-forcing iPhone passwords easier. And the government chose to make this public - Apple wanted to keep it under seal.

    Try again.
    02-20-16 12:38 AM
  3. mrlahjr's Avatar
    Just a thought here folks, I wonder if Apple could unlock the device? Have them do the unlock at their facilities and then give it to the authorities without providing any of the software methods on how it was done?

    I know I am the side of privacy and said that in one of my post, but I was thinking about this today and just thought I might be a way to please all parties involved?
    This seems to be the most logical thing to do. The owner of the phone is gone. To make everyone happy apple should unlock this one phone if they can.

    TMO  Z10,STL100-3/10.3.2.2789
    02-20-16 12:42 AM
  4. JohnGrey's Avatar
    This seems to be the most logical thing to do. The owner of the phone is gone. To make everyone happy apple should unlock this one phone if they can.

    TMO  Z10,STL100-3/10.3.2.2789
    Who's everyone? I wouldn't be happy if Apple blithely handed over an instrument that despite other assertions would be subsumed and mutated by the FBI into something for broader use. Read the following article by Jonathan Zdziarski, a forensic scientist who specialises in iOS devices and has been a vocal detractor of Apple's lax security protocols in the past, and what he has to say about the FBI's true intent:

    http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645

    The fact of the matter is that in every particular this case is wrong. It's wrong in its novel reading of the AWA as a cart blanche tool for compelling private assistance in a government-run arena where 'ready, fire, aim' has been the MO from day one. It's wrong in demanding Apple open up their intellectual property to third parties where it will inevitably be used maliciously. It's wrong in attempting to compel Apple to produce this tool against its own consent, self-interest and right to self-determination, an act blatantly in defiance of the 13th amendment. And most egregious, and flowing from the previous points, it is unequivocally wrong, and monumentally stupid, to hand to a government which has illegally surveilled, without control, remorse or sense of moral decency, a tool with which it may do so with far greater speed and reliability.

    In the end, you have look at the order and decide what it means. To me, well...if it goose-steps like a police state and heil's like a police state, it's probably best to not assume good intent.
    Last edited by JohnGrey; 02-20-16 at 03:18 AM.
    Elephant_Canyon and JeepBB like this.
    02-20-16 03:04 AM
  5. JohnGrey's Avatar
    What a pathetic masquerade this is by Apple...to hide behind the guise of privacy to defend it's bottom line. Yes Tim Cook, first CEO to oversee a drop in iPhone sales since it's inception, there are higher principals at stake in the civilized world than protecting Apple's share value and defending iPhone encryption from the 'big government' boogie monster.

    Posted via CB10
    The same height of principle as saving hundreds of thousands of American lives by developing the atomic bomb, inaugurating a Cold War and a strategic lunacy that took us to the brink of annihilation twice in three decades? The Manhattan Project was the most secret skunkwork in the world at the time. And who was working right alongside good, flag-waving, trusting American scientists? Soviet spies. However it's justified, if it's let stand, it will make it into the wild and it will cause catastrophic damage. Instead of 14 poor souls shot dead, it'll be tens of thousands when foreign intelligence and terror groups use it to gather intelligence on how to damage our utility grids.
    Elephant_Canyon likes this.
    02-20-16 03:29 AM
  6. donnation's Avatar
    Just a regular Apple's PR lie for a naive users to be happy. This scandal is worth nothing. FBI asked Apple to get an information from an old drowned device, not even taking the device out of the Apple's corporate campus. Apple behaved like a regular bully rejecting the request.

    All the story was to get the information from the device inside the Apple's labs and pass ONLY the information to the FBI. This is normal, IMHO.
    Why Apple behaved like that? Because they need to take the focus out of TWO BIG PROBLEMS with there own OS: "the 1970" scandal and the "Error 53" problem.
    Any other company, either Google or Microsoft or, especially, BlackBerry would be crucified in the same case. Not Apple.
    Until when Apple is gonna be an untouchable sheep?
    If you are calling them scandals that means you are aware of them and that they have been scrutinized in the media for these things. Was BB crucified for double typing with the Q10? Or were they crucified with the bricking issue with 9900's or rebooting Z10's? Or how about screen lifts on the Passport. None of those things were ever mentioned by mainstream media, and some of them continue to be big issues with BB users.
    02-20-16 07:28 AM
  7. kidcalis's Avatar
    http://thehackernews.com/2016/02/unl...evice.html?m=1

    Interesting situation Apple is in!!! I can't see FBI backing down and if Apple grants FBI's wishes...it would be a business suicide!

    If that had been a BlackBerry device...how would BlackBerry act...the same way Apple is acting???

    Valid Passport!
    02-20-16 07:40 AM
  8. Kumar Awijeet's Avatar
    The catch-22 is that if companies take a hard line, no compromise position on this, then they may ALL be forced to provide back doors directly to the authorities, by law.

    My opinion is to try and appear sensible, and you may at least be able to maintain some control over the process.
    Totally agree with you, because if they deny this thing completely then it will violate the law and they will be forced to do it. Rather than that, they should propose, we give you the data and not how we got to the data. This way they can take the phone do the hack and give back the data, without the Govt interfering, because at the end of the day the Govt also want only the data, right? I mean until and unless they are using it for getting a master key, they should be ok with just the data and don't care about the phone.

    Posted via CB10
    02-20-16 07:41 AM
  9. z10Jobe's Avatar
    If you are calling them scandals that means you are aware of them and that they have been scrutinized in the media for these things. Was BB crucified for double typing with the Q10? Or were they crucified with the bricking issue with 9900's or rebooting Z10's? Or how about screen lifts on the Passport. None of those things were ever mentioned by mainstream media, and some of them continue to be big issues with BB users.
    The media generally doesn't scrutinize Apple in a negative light. I heard about the May 1970 apple issue the other day from one of their technical support people. Don't set the date prior to then was the moral of the story.

    The media does like to crucify BlackBerry however, perhaps not specific handset issues, but certainly corporately especially their huge drop in market share. The headlines on many BlackBerry related articles are particularly skewed negatively.

    Btw, I have bought 3 z10s and not one of them has unduly rebooted ever. The only time the phone reboots is after an OS update or a nasty drop where the back of the phone and battery pop off. Just snap it back in place and the phone keeps ticking.

    Posted via CB10
    02-20-16 09:10 AM
  10. TgeekB's Avatar
    Who's everyone? I wouldn't be happy if Apple blithely handed over an instrument that despite other assertions would be subsumed and mutated by the FBI into something for broader use. Read the following article by Jonathan Zdziarski, a forensic scientist who specialises in iOS devices and has been a vocal detractor of Apple's lax security protocols in the past, and what he has to say about the FBI's true intent:

    http://www.zdziarski.com/blog/?p=5645

    The fact of the matter is that in every particular this case is wrong. It's wrong in its novel reading of the AWA as a cart blanche tool for compelling private assistance in a government-run arena where 'ready, fire, aim' has been the MO from day one. It's wrong in demanding Apple open up their intellectual property to third parties where it will inevitably be used maliciously. It's wrong in attempting to compel Apple to produce this tool against its own consent, self-interest and right to self-determination, an act blatantly in defiance of the 13th amendment. And most egregious, and flowing from the previous points, it is unequivocally wrong, and monumentally stupid, to hand to a government which has illegally surveilled, without control, remorse or sense of moral decency, a tool with which it may do so with far greater speed and reliability.

    In the end, you have look at the order and decide what it means. To me, well...if it goose-steps like a police state and heil's like a police state, it's probably best to not assume good intent.
    With all due respect, where do you take the FBI wanting data off a terrorists phone to possibly prevent future terrorist attacks and turn it into a police state?
    02-20-16 09:11 AM
  11. Old_Mil's Avatar
    the fed's commitment to protect the public.

    Posted via CB10
    For starters, it is sort of silly to presume that a fed which invites hundreds of thousands of Syrian Muslim refugees to live in our midst has any commitment to protect the public...certainly not one whose success or failure hinges on the contents of a single cell phone.
    02-20-16 09:12 AM
  12. donnation's Avatar
    The media generally doesn't scrutinize Apple in a negative light. I heard about the May 1970 apple issue the other day from one of their technical support people. Don't set the date prior to then was the moral of the story.

    The media does like to crucify BlackBerry however, perhaps not specific handset issues, but certainly corporately especially their huge drop in market share. The headlines on many BlackBerry related articles are particularly skewed negatively.

    Btw, I have bought 3 z10s and not one of them has unduly rebooted ever. The only time the phone reboots is after an OS update or a nasty drop where the back of the phone and battery pop off. Just snap it back in place and the phone keeps ticking.

    Posted via CB10
    Yeah that is the issue, while by no means a big one it was widely reported on. Remember bendgate? Of course you do, you bring it up all the time. How often has the Passport bending or screen lifting issue been brought up in the media. I can tell you that double typing affected almost every single Q10, but no mention of that in the media.

    If Apple's sales slightly dip there is a media frenzy. If they have one issue with any of their devices it's a media frenzy. If BlackBerry has an issue it's ignored mostly; but people report the media saying what BB's market share is as criticism.

    I'm glad you never had a rebooting issue with your Z10, but it was back when it launched, not 3 years later, and was eventually corrected by BlackBerry after nearly a year of it occurring.
    TgeekB likes this.
    02-20-16 09:19 AM
  13. TgeekB's Avatar
    For starters, it is sort of silly to presume that a fed which invites hundreds of thousands of Syrian Muslim refugees to live in our midst has any commitment to protect the public...certainly not one whose success or failure hinges on the contents of a single cell phone.
    Let's not attack a group of people fleeing tyranny.
    02-20-16 09:25 AM
  14. Old_Mil's Avatar
    Let's not attack a group of people fleeing tyranny.
    ... Funny how these Muslim men of military age seem to leave their women and children behind when they flee tyranny. Perhaps this has more to do with hijrah than tyranny. But this is turning into a digression.

    Back to the issue of the phone. There is no good reason to abrogate the 4th and 5th amendment rights of all Americans - not to mention the benefits that accrue to people who are protected by Apple's stance who may not live in countries where such protections are codified - based on the contents of one phone.

    In fact, unlocking one phone isn't what this government is asking for. They want apple to deliberately weaken the security and privacy features on all iPhones to facilitate spying on everyone.
    02-20-16 10:02 AM
  15. JohnGrey's Avatar
    With all due respect, where do you take the FBI wanting data off a terrorists phone to possibly prevent future terrorist attacks and turn it into a police state?
    Because of the manner in which they have sought to do it, and their tenor in attempting to do so, and viewing both of those things in the light of what we know, and came to know, about the US intelligence apparatus. Whether you agree with his actions or not, in June of 2013, Edward Snowden took a ten-pound sledge to a false wall of the American aedifice and revealed the manifestation of the Orwellian Big Brother, that the government that was supposed to be of us, by us and for us, was truly and unequivocally not that. Like a cancer, it had reached illegally and monstrously into every facet of the way that we speak to one another, and it had nothing to do with our protection; the FBI and NSA both have grudgingly admitted that not a single terrorist plot has been foiled, or even materially impacted by the unconstitutional PRISM programme.

    What frightens me so very much in your question, and the question I see proposed by neoconservatives so often, is the world 'possibly'. We don't know what's the phone; Syed Farook could have used it to communicate with other terror agents. Or he might've used a payphone, a certified letter, bloody smoke signal. So, for a distant chance in finding some operative connection, in a case where the FBI has asserted that, despite his horrible crimes being religiously-motivated that he had no direct link to any terror group, you want to establish a legal precent, and a tool which, contrary to what you have been told and which has been pointed our by Mr Zdziarski, absolutely will not remain an in-house tool of Apple but will functionally become the property of the FBI, will allow them to reach, AT WILL and with no reasonable means of prevention or notification, into the phones of fully one third of American citizens? Because we should just trust Big Brother. Because we should Love Big Brother. America is already a police state, sir. When you can arbitrarily be put into custody with legal representation indefinitely, when you have domestic surveillance more pervasive than anything in the Stasi's most feverish dreams, when you can be compelled to economic activity in the service of the medical industry, whilst the same industry enjoys legal price-fixing to make drugs thousands of times more expensive than they are elsewhere and illegal for you to buy them from other sources, when you cannot exercise your right to defend your life because unconstitutional gun laws are enforced, and doing so in violation of those laws would see you in jail some twenty years or more...the land of the free and the more-free is already here, and we have always been at war of Eastasia.

    I don't accept, logically or viscerally, that any miscarriage of justice and depreciation of the rule of law, ever brings about a good end. The best that it ever does is bring about good feelings...until the miscarriage and depreciation points the strong arm of the state at you and that happens not just 'possibly' but inevitably. A government which demands surveillance is a tyrant, in every sense of the world, it is someone spoiling for a fight, and eventually, it will pick you. Communists learned that in the purges, Nazis learned it after establishing the Chancellery and we're learning it now.
    02-20-16 10:03 AM
  16. JohnGrey's Avatar
    Let's not attack a group of people fleeing tyranny.
    They aren't fleeing tyranny. More than half of the 'refugees' are young men of fighting age. That's not a refugee flight, that's an invasion, which Russia, Germany and Sweden have learned with some bitterness. You can decide that your sensibilities would rather help the half that aren't, rather than actually take material steps address a threat that we know exists and is coming, not possibly so, and you will reveal yourself as a hypocrite.
    02-20-16 10:06 AM
  17. TgeekB's Avatar
    Because of the manner in which they have sought to do it, and their tenor in attempting to do so, and viewing both of those things in the light of what we know, and came to know, about the US intelligence apparatus. Whether you agree with his actions or not, in June of 2013, Edward Snowden took a ten-pound sledge to a false wall of the American aedifice and revealed the manifestation of the Orwellian Big Brother, that the government that was supposed to be of us, by us and for us, was truly and unequivocally not that. Like a cancer, it had reached illegally and monstrously into every facet of the way that we speak to one another, and it had nothing to do with our protection; the FBI and NSA both have grudgingly admitted that not a single terrorist plot has been foiled, or even materially impacted by the unconstitutional PRISM programme.

    What frightens me so very much in your question, and the question I see proposed by neoconservatives so often, is the world 'possibly'. We don't know what's the phone; Syed Farook could have communicated with other terror agents. Or he might've used a payphone, a certified letter, bloody smoke signal. So, for a distant chance in finding something operative connection, in a case where the FBI has asserted that, despite his horrible crimes being religiously-motivated that he had no direct link to any terror group, you want to establish a legal precent, and a tool which, contrary to what you have been told and which has been pointed our by Mr Zdziarski, absolutely will not remain an in-house tool of Apple but will functionally become the property of the FBI, to reach, AT WILL and with no reasonable means of prevention of notification, into the phones of fully one third of American citizens? Because we should just trust Big Brother. Because we should Love Big Brother. America is already a police state, sir. When you can arbitrarily be put into custody with legal representation indefinitely, when you have domestic surveillance more pervasive than anything in the Stasi's most feverish dreams, when you can be compelled to economic activity in the service of the medical industry, whilst the same industry enjoys legal price-fixing to make drugs thousands of times more expensive than they are elsewhere and illegal for you to buy them from other sources, when you cannot exercise your right to defend your life because unconstitutional gun laws are enforced, and doing so in violation of those laws would see you in jail some twenty years or more...the land of the free and the more-free is already here, and we have always been at war of Eastasia.

    I don't accept, logically or viscerally, that any miscarriage of justice and depreciation of the rule of law, ever brings about a good end. The best that it ever does is bring about good feelings...until the miscarriage and depreciation points the strong arm of the state at you and that happens not just 'possibly' but inevitably. A government which demands surveillance is a tyrant, in every sense of the world, it is someone spoiling for a fight, and eventually, it will pick you. Communists learned that in the purges, Nazis learned it after establishing the Chancellery and we're learning it now.
    Again, with all do respect, you have a very extreme viewpoint. It is true bad people exist and bad things have happened, but I will not spend my life in extreme fear. I will not stockpile guns in extreme fear. I am someone more in the middle who looks to collaborate with people to find solutions. I look to advance humanity rather than go backwards. I am not an extremist who thinks only his viewpoints are correct, but I do believe we have to find working solutions in the face of a dynamic world.

    Again, I respect your views and I hope you respect mine.
    02-20-16 10:10 AM
  18. early2bed's Avatar
    This is ultimately great PR for Apple. This is already the tech news story of the year, may go on for years, and is likely slated for the US Supreme Court because neither side has any reason to back down. The underlying message for the general public is that Apple devices are so secure that not even governments can hack in to them. What could be more private than that? Even if Apple loses they will get credit for not caving. Whatever additional security features they add will likely be covered by the mainstream media as an effort to enhance privacy.

    As for BlackBerry, what's the use of being the privacy smartphone when everyone now associates Apple with protecting privacy at all costs.
    02-20-16 10:12 AM
  19. TgeekB's Avatar
    They aren't fleeing tyranny. More than half of the 'refugees' are young men of fighting age. That's not a refugee flight, that's an invasion, which Russia, Germany and Sweden have learned with some bitterness. You can decide that your sensibilities would rather help the half that aren't, rather than actually take material steps address a threat that we know exists and is coming, not possibly so, and you will reveal yourself as a hypocrite.
    Please stop. Extreme viewpoints with a lack of sensible solutions helps no one.

    I'm going to respectfully leave this where it is and remind you this is a smartphone forum, not an extremist right wing political forum.
    02-20-16 10:13 AM
  20. sorinv's Avatar
    [/QUOTE]
    I'm glad you never had a rebooting issue with your Z10, but it was back when it launched, not 3 years later, and was eventually corrected by BlackBerry after nearly a year of it occurring.[/QUOTE]

    I had a Z10 from February 2013 until November 2013. Never rebooted, never had any issues. I gave it to my son when I got my z30.
    02-20-16 10:17 AM
  21. JohnGrey's Avatar
    Please stop. Extreme viewpoints with a lack of sensible solutions helps no one.

    I'm going to respectfully leave this where it is and remind you this is a smartphone forum, not an extremist right wing political forum.
    There is nothing extreme about the rule of law. If you find it so, then you're views are far more extreme, and dangerous, than my own.
    02-20-16 10:18 AM
  22. JohnGrey's Avatar
    Again, with all do respect, you have a very extreme viewpoint. It is true bad people exist and bad things have happened, but I will not spend my life in extreme fear. I will not stockpile guns in extreme fear. I am someone more in the middle who looks to collaborate with people to find solutions. I look to advance humanity rather than go backwards. I am not an extremist who thinks only his viewpoints are correct, but I do believe we have to find working solutions in the face of a dynamic world.

    Again, I respect your views and I hope you respect mine.
    That's just gross subjectivism. Address the immediate needs of the moment. Situations are fluid so there can be no solid answers. No laws that are immutable. No justice but the justice of feelings. Cover your face and the bad men won't see you. That's not reality, that's the blanket you were wrapped in as a child, and it's a fantasy. I accept that you have the right to wrap yourself in it. See that you don't trample my right to privacy and self-determination to do so.
    02-20-16 10:21 AM
  23. TgeekB's Avatar
    That's just gross subjectivism. Address the immediate needs of the moment. Situations are fluid so there can be no solid answers. No laws that are immutable. No justice but the justice of feelings. Cover your face and the bad men won't see you. That's not reality, that's the blanket you were wrapped in as a child, and it's a fantasy. I accept that you have the right to wrap yourself in it. See that you don't trample my right to privacy and self-determination to do so.
    Your viewpoint.
    02-20-16 10:28 AM
  24. JohnGrey's Avatar
    Your viewpoint.
    Okay. When you come up with a 'sensible solution' that is consistent with the rule of law, you can come back and we can collaborate. Till then, we can just label your vague transhumanist agenda as 'your viewpoint', which according to the subjectivism you embrace is no more worthy than mine.

    I'll wait, but not hold my breath.
    02-20-16 10:33 AM
  25. z10Jobe's Avatar
    Yeah that is the issue, while by no means a big one it was widely reported on. Remember bendgate? Of course you do, you bring it up all the time. How often has the Passport bending or screen lifting issue been brought up in the media. I can tell you that double typing affected almost every single Q10, but no mention of that in the media.

    If Apple's sales slightly dip there is a media frenzy. If they have one issue with any of their devices it's a media frenzy. If BlackBerry has an issue it's ignored mostly; but people report the media saying what BB's market share is as criticism.

    I'm glad you never had a rebooting issue with your Z10, but it was back when it launched, not 3 years later, and was eventually corrected by BlackBerry after nearly a year of it occurring.
    I'm sorry. With all due respect, I don't know if you are naive, oblivious or just like to argue, the media is very negative on BlackBerry. If you don't see it, that is fine. If you don't see negative BlackBerry headlines of a current story with a picture of a 7 year old BlackBerry Pearl or storm captioned below, or the 'I wouldn't wish this BlackBerry on my worst enemy' crap, so be it. I can't help you there.

    Meanwhile as far as this thread is concerned..... much of the media is making a mountain out of a molehill on this one phone issue, all the while it is reported that Apple has previously helped law enforcement in about 70 previous cases. While I agree with Apple's position in not wanting to provide a 'back door' for their products as it could be a slippery slope, not complying with court orders can also be seen as a slippery slope. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out. Apple does have the financial resources to fight this in the courts. No matter what side of the debate you are on, I think most would agree that Apple's handling of the issue was more polished and beneficial to their company than John Chen's unsolicited out of nowhere press release about complying with court orders a few months back.

    It is interesting that when BlackBerry talks security, it is tinfoil hat time and nobody cares about security, they want social apps, etc. Apple talks security, it is championing civil rights (for their Chinese made products).

    Btw, I have owned my first z10 for almost 3 years now and am still waiting for this rebooting scandal to rear it's ugly head. If you are talking about the unpolished release of BlackBerry OS 10.0, that is old news and I didn't experience it, but the early media reviews were certainly all over it, as they should have been. Apple May 1970 still exists and again I didn't read about it in the media, I heard about it from a tech whose job it is to deal with it.



    Posted via CB10
    02-20-16 10:38 AM
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