1. hurds's Avatar
    So there's been some general dicussions about the samsung-apple case after the verdict recently.

    One thing I can't help but think of is

    “Good Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal”

    Who said this? I guess Picasso did but after that another well-known CEO repeated it.

    Steve Jobs, 1996: "Good Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal"

    Now we all know that CEOs are infallible, like when a CEO says 60 days off-hand to a reporter people drone on about it for over a year so why should this be any different? Shouldn't we all be harping on this calling-out apple for this double standard? (I get dizzy with the amount of double standards flying around). Or are we now in the post-jobs area, where things he said can no longer be held against apple (7 inch tablets being DOA?). But if thats the case, I'd argue apple has lost their way, no more steve jobs innovation, but now all their money can be used on lawyers for litigation, well, I guess continued to be used on lawyers for litigation. Can we still constanly harp on old things Mike or Jim said even though they are out? (I know some apparent RIM supporters like to quote articles of their interviews). But not Jobs? Should RIM just steal instead of copy? They've always done their own thing, and continue to be the leaders in innovative technology and design so I don't see them having a problem, but should they be worried since apple's aim has shifted from innovation to litigation? Lots of questions. What do you all think?


    "We have always been shameless in stealing great ideas"
    Last edited by hurds; 08-26-12 at 04:28 AM.
    Stewartj1, bungaboy and robkd like this.
    08-26-12 04:25 AM
  2. anon(4018671)'s Avatar
    The saying is true but when there is money at stake it makes people do silly things

    Apple while yes having patents does not live in a bubble inventing things and then going out into the world to sell its wares. Things don't work that way. They are exposed to the same culture and technology and are aware of the same limitations and aspirations (maybe more so than general population because its their job). For instance Apple failed miserably with the Newton because while the concept was sound the technology wasn't there, horrible hand recognition etc. etc. So it was about a decade later that the iPhone was launched but without the hardware touchscreen it wouldn't have happened.

    What I'm getting at is there are so many things people might want. People wanted the concept of Newton but it didn't measure up to expectations due to immature technology. So if it isn't there you can't steal/borrow it like from Xerox lol.

    I think the next big thing is the connected car/home capability and RIM with QNX offers a lot there. There is opportunity to be the biggest. There are companies that use QNX right now that make running a home look like trimming a blade of grass when mowing a lawn. Its insignificant technology wise but expensive. The consumer market is large so they need to get the costs down. Hopefully they will bring it all together.

    Anyway I think PlayBook is RIM's Newton in a way. The idea for home automation and having all your devices being in someway connected to you all the times is out there. That is one great idea to steal and run with and I think people want it, but haven't been given the opportunity to "easily" [cheaply] access it. QNX, Security, and the NOC can and will do this for RIM.

    And yeah the double standards are there but "you win some you lose some" is another saying haha people have a short memory.
    08-26-12 06:36 AM
  3. ItnStln's Avatar
    I really hope that RIM doesn't stoop down to apple's level. I'd lose any respect that I have for them and would never support them by buying any of their products.

    Off topic, but who did invent universal search? I've heard Palm, BlackBerry, and HTC.
    08-26-12 06:41 AM
  4. GTiLeo's Avatar
    So there's been some general dicussions about the samsung-apple case after the verdict recently.

    One thing I can't help but think of is

    �Good Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal�

    Who said this? I guess Picasso did but after that another well-known CEO repeated it.

    Steve Jobs, 1996: "Good Artists Copy, Great Artists Steal"

    Now we all know that CEOs are infallible, like when a CEO says 60 days off-hand to a reporter people drone on about it for over a year so why should this be any different? Shouldn't we all be harping on this calling-out apple for this double standard? (I get dizzy with the amount of double standards flying around). Or are we now in the post-jobs area, where things he said can no longer be held against apple (7 inch tablets being DOA?). But if thats the case, I'd argue apple has lost their way, no more steve jobs innovation, but now all their money can be used on lawyers for litigation, well, I guess continued to be used on lawyers for litigation. Can we still constanly harp on old things Mike or Jim said even though they are out? (I know some apparent RIM supporters like to quote articles of their interviews). But not Jobs? Should RIM just steal instead of copy? They've always done their own thing, and continue to be the leaders in innovative technology and design so I don't see them having a problem, but should they be worried since apple's aim has shifted from innovation to litigation? Lots of questions. What do you all think?


    "We have always been shameless in stealing great ideas"
    i've been saying for a while to people that apples innovation is pretty much gone now that jobs is dead. he was the company his vision ran it and designed its products, even wrote darwin based on the Mach microkernel, but Tim Cooke, meh he's not even close to beign i nthe same league as jobs and frankly i won't have it in him to innovate so i guess they see litigations as their way of staying dominant in the market and by keeping their competitors down is the onyl way to do it
    08-26-12 10:03 AM
  5. tchocky77's Avatar
    There's a difference between stealing a concept and ripping off an entire phone/OS/design philosophy, including everything down to the PACKAGING. If you can't see the difference, then you're possessed with what I'm calling IAHS.
    08-26-12 10:14 AM
  6. MartyMcfly's Avatar
    i've been saying for a while to people that apples innovation is pretty much gone now that jobs is dead. he was the company his vision ran it and designed its products, even wrote darwin based on the Mach microkernel, but Tim Cooke, meh he's not even close to beign i nthe same league as jobs and frankly i won't have it in him to innovate so i guess they see litigations as their way of staying dominant in the market and by keeping their competitors down is the onyl way to do it
    Dude, how old are you? You think everything that came out of apple was Job's idea? There's a lot of bright people that work for Apple. Jobs is definitely irreplaceable however you shouldn't discount the rest of the talent that works there.
    08-26-12 10:25 AM
  7. GTiLeo's Avatar
    Dude, how old are you? You think everything that came out of apple was Job's idea? There's a lot of bright people that work for Apple. Jobs is definitely irreplaceable however you shouldn't discount the rest of the talent that works there.
    how different was the iphone4S over the 4, it really wasn't same chipset as the ipad2 thrown in an iphone4 shell with siri. what about the ipad3 same crap just different display.

    we will soon find out what the iphone5 is all about but the past two products since jobs hasn't been around are not more innovative then then ones that came before.

    and just so you know i'm 27
    08-26-12 10:50 AM
  8. MartyMcfly's Avatar
    how different was the iphone4S over the 4, it really wasn't same chipset as the ipad2 thrown in an iphone4 shell with siri. what about the ipad3 same crap just different display.

    we will soon find out what the iphone5 is all about but the past two products since jobs hasn't been around are not more innovative then then ones that came before.

    and just so you know i'm 27
    The difference between the 4s and 4 is minimum...It's a huge upgrade for customers that upgraded from the 3gs...BTW RIM is the absolute worst when it comes to incremental upgrades.
    08-26-12 11:07 AM
  9. hootyhoo's Avatar
    The difference between the 4s and 4 is minimum...It's a huge upgrade for customers that upgraded from the 3gs...BTW RIM is the absolute worst when it comes to incremental upgrades.
    Rim's incrementalism is one of the reasons for their drop in market share. At least for me, it was one of the reasons I dropped them.
    08-26-12 11:12 AM
  10. GTiLeo's Avatar
    The difference between the 4s and 4 is minimum...It's a huge upgrade for customers that upgraded from the 3gs...BTW RIM is the absolute worst when it comes to incremental upgrades.
    oh no doubt they are the worst in some cases with the 8900 curve and 8500 they went backwards but this was only the case in the genereation of the 9700 bold and the 8500 curve, their BBOS7 line was a big step up from that minus the 9810 which is stil la step up as far as CPU, GPU, and camera go

    also no doubt its a huge upgrade for those that go from 3gs to 4S but it was also a huge step from 3gs to 4. even with tablets though the ipad 1 and 2 had big improvmenets but the next one was rather low and the main difference was just the gpu
    08-26-12 11:13 AM
  11. SuperionMaximus's Avatar
    The difference between the 4s and 4 is minimum...It's a huge upgrade for customers that upgraded from the 3gs...BTW RIM is the absolute worst when it comes to incremental upgrades.
    Personally I see allot of parallels between Apple today and RIM post 2008. RIM under estimated the market, Apple is doing the same. Apple is the new RIM of the 2008 era and hopefully RIM is the new Apple of the 1995 era.

    Apple is resting on it's laurels and they have boxed themselves in. Their major growth engine has been expanding the availability of the iPhone to new markets and carriers all the way down to pre-paid carriers. The same way RIM maintained it's growth post 2008. Plus, Apple want's to avoid fragmentation as much as possible so they maintained the same screen size for 5 years to maintain app compatibility. the thing is, now the app store is so huge they are forced to maintain that slow pace of development as any major shift would see literally hundreds of thousands of apps become instantly incompatible with the new phone. So they are a victim of their own size in a way.

    RIM is now allot smaller and more nimble and they are building their platform differently then others have in the past. While RIM is standardizing resolutions on it's products, it has also made it sure that it is easy for developers to make apps that scale to any resolution.

    Apple started from a point of making a phone and Tablet OS. RIM is thinking broader with BB 10 and thinking of many use cases out side the realm of just phones and tablets and are building the platform to be more flexible.

    iOS is every bit as stale as BBOS. It has changed less in the last 6 years then BBOS. It is not customizable and is essentially just an app drawer that scrolls in only one dimension for a home screen.

    Plus, Apple's task switcher implementation of multi-tasking is indisputably the worst in the industry. It is not user friendly, intuitive, informative or convenient. It is just bad. Granted BBOS task switcher is nearly as bad but slightly more intuitive to use so even it is better. But nothing can even hold a candle to Tablet OS/BB 10 for multi-tasking. Plus, the incredible resource management of QNX means that users of BB 10 can literally have their cake and eat it to. Real time true multi-tasking and great battery life. No other platform can match that. Will that be enough of a draw though? People buy iOS devices and they are nightmarishly awful at task switching so maybe people don't care about that.

    I also think that this Apple vs. Samsung thing may turn people off of Apple Products a little bit as there is no shortage of articles online and posts in forums that are against the ruling because Samsung has done more in the last couple years to update it's products and raise the bar then Apple has done in the last five. I don't think the lawsuit will win apple many new customers.

    Heck, next year if the iPhone 5 is not the best thing since sliced bread and if windows 8 continues to struggle, just might be the perfect time to introduce an alternative into the market. BB 10 may be able to sway some people back into the fold who are tired of the walled gardens they moved to. BB 10 might have a big impact on the market.
    08-26-12 12:19 PM
  12. dbmalloy's Avatar
    I think we need to deffrerentiate between ideas and innovation. Many think innovation is making “new things"…

    Apple became an innovative company with the release of the Ipad…. A truly unique device many have said… a game changer.....this is where Apple’s innovation began….

    Problem it is not true… I use an tablet computer in 2000… no not a misprint…. Microsoft created and marketed an tablet rut was not innovative... purhaps for the market today but from an idea not innovative at all….

    Did Steve Jobs innovate or steal an idea from Bill Gates…. You decide….

    For me innovation is not what you create but innovation is how well something does things…… This is where up to now... Apple has excelled.... stalled somewhat right now.....

    there is an old saying “ there is nothing new in this world…. Just ideas lost…. Heck they had flush toilets in ancient Crete but to the early 20th century it was a great innovation…..

    I hope all the companies innovate in whatever manner they can as it is the consumer who benifits when they do.... When innovation stagnates we stagnate.....
    08-26-12 12:22 PM
  13. GTiLeo's Avatar
    Personally I see allot of parallels between Apple today and RIM post 2008. RIM under estimated the market, Apple is doing the same. Apple is the new RIM of the 2008 era and hopefully RIM is the new Apple of the 1995 era.

    Apple is resting on it's laurels and they have boxed themselves in. Their major growth engine has been expanding the availability of the iPhone to new markets and carriers all the way down to pre-paid carriers. The same way RIM maintained it's growth post 2008. Plus, Apple want's to avoid fragmentation as much as possible so they maintained the same screen size for 5 years to maintain app compatibility. the thing is, now the app store is so huge they are forced to maintain that slow pace of development as any major shift would see literally hundreds of thousands of apps become instantly incompatible with the new phone. So they are a victim of their own size in a way.

    RIM is now allot smaller and more nimble and they are building their platform differently then others have in the past. While RIM is standardizing resolutions on it's products, it has also made it sure that it is easy for developers to make apps that scale to any resolution.

    Apple started from a point of making a phone and Tablet OS. RIM is thinking broader with BB 10 and thinking of many use cases out side the realm of just phones and tablets and are building the platform to be more flexible.

    iOS is every bit as stale as BBOS. It has changed less in the last 6 years then BBOS. It is not customizable and is essentially just an app drawer that scrolls in only one dimension for a home screen.

    Plus, Apple's task switcher implementation of multi-tasking is indisputably the worst in the industry. It is not user friendly, intuitive, informative or convenient. It is just bad. Granted BBOS task switcher is nearly as bad but slightly more intuitive to use so even it is better. But nothing can even hold a candle to Tablet OS/BB 10 for multi-tasking. Plus, the incredible resource management of QNX means that users of BB 10 can literally have their cake and eat it to. Real time true multi-tasking and great battery life. No other platform can match that. Will that be enough of a draw though? People buy iOS devices and they are nightmarishly awful at task switching so maybe people don't care about that.

    I also think that this Apple vs. Samsung thing may turn people off of Apple Products a little bit as there is no shortage of articles online and posts in forums that are against the ruling because Samsung has done more in the last couple years to update it's products and raise the bar then Apple has done in the last five. I don't think the lawsuit will win apple many new customers.

    Heck, next year if the iPhone 5 is not the best thing since sliced bread and if windows 8 continues to struggle, just might be the perfect time to introduce an alternative into the market. BB 10 may be able to sway some people back into the fold who are tired of the walled gardens they moved to. BB 10 might have a big impact on the market.
    great post and welcome to crackberry.

    i would kind of agree with you and most of us say the same thing. through the time iOS has been around nothing has really changed with it besides a few OS enhancments and the addition of siri or apps that are already native to other OSs.

    the strong hold Apple has on the market is reasons why everyone turns a blind eye to what iOS is lacking and where it is lacking
    08-26-12 12:27 PM
  14. southlander's Avatar
    I take Jobs saying that as meaning great artists are the ones that can steal and get away with it. Samsung was foolish knowing apples stance on Android.

    Sent from my flip-phone.
    08-26-12 01:01 PM
  15. ALToronto's Avatar
    The copy/steal quote is from Picasso. When you merely copy, you do so without putting your soul into the art, it's just going through the motions. When you steal, you make it your own, you take inspiration from someone else's art and use your own creativity to transform the source of your inspiration into a new, unique artwork.

    As an artist in my own little niche, I've had my work copied, and I've had it stolen in the Picasso sense. Big difference.

    Concrete Elegance
    08-26-12 04:50 PM
  16. SandMulls's Avatar
    I've heard a wise guy once said that everything that is done today is simply innovation. Everything's already here, just waiting to be discovered and to be "innovated", then companies can just sell off their innovatons.
    08-26-12 06:05 PM
  17. Mpantherz13's Avatar
    The only reason Apple got away with suing them without any social backlash is because it's become a standard to sue someone for anything. Companies are suing each other left and right for petty reasons just because they can.
    I don't know the specifics of this case, but I've been following many others and I'm just tired of all of it.
    Syrous44 and bigbmc26 like this.
    08-26-12 06:21 PM
  18. Tre Lawrence's Avatar
    The copy/steal quote is from Picasso. When you merely copy, you do so without putting your soul into the art, it's just going through the motions. When you steal, you make it your own, you take inspiration from someone else's art and use your own creativity to transform the source of your inspiration into a new, unique artwork.

    As an artist in my own little niche, I've had my work copied, and I've had it stolen in the Picasso sense. Big difference.

    Concrete Elegance
    Finally... someone who actually understands the Picasso quote. Finally. LOL.

    As to another post: I read somewhere that Steve Jobs' biggest skill was his ability to say "no" to ideas. He surrounded himself with very smart and innovative people, and then encouraged ideas. The ones he thought were bad were sent back.

    The message: perfect it, or get something else going.

    If Cook can do a fraction of that, Apple will be well off for a while.

    And, to another post: the difference between Apple and RIm with regards to how they deal with being at the top of the tech world... well, Apple, IMHO, stumbled backwards into smartphone dominance, but stumbling into it did allow it to leverage the fact that it has done well to inculcate itself into the everyday lives of ordinary people.

    In other words, it created a hard-to-ignore ecosystem (dodges AG ) that attracts people. Phones, tablets, entertainment, mobility. It's exciting to see, even for folks like me who don't use Apple products.
    iankeiththomas and ALToronto like this.
    08-26-12 06:35 PM
  19. bxp24's Avatar
    oh no doubt they are the worst in some cases with the 8900 curve and 8500 they went backwards but this was only the case in the genereation of the 9700 bold and the 8500 curve, their BBOS7 line was a big step up from that minus the 9810 which is stil la step up as far as CPU, GPU, and camera go

    also no doubt its a huge upgrade for those that go from 3gs to 4S but it was also a huge step from 3gs to 4. even with tablets though the ipad 1 and 2 had big improvmenets but the next one was rather low and the main difference was just the gpu
    The incrementalism is a result of the relationship RIM had with carriers. Carriers seem to have pressured RIM into developing devices based on price point, but then marketed and pushed people towards iPhones or the hero Android device of the week. Carriers want devices across the price spectrum, but rather than understanding their customers' priorities and classifying features according to users' needs, RIM and other OEMs seem to just arbitrarily choose where to cut to drive price down. The end result is a range of devices, some without wifi, some with slower processors or less RAM, etc. The unintended effect, though, is a diminished user experience and, subsequently, brand. Why? Because that, say, cheap Android phone with a low-end processor and spartan RAM is running the same Android OS as one of the hero devices. But when that user tries to do the things on their cheap phone as someone does on a hero device, the phone lags, doesn't work well, etc., and the user is frustrated.

    The compromises/sacrifices consumers make when purchasing a phone often aren't tangible at the point of sale. This is a challenge MS has had as well with Windows. People buy "low-end" devices due to price, get frustrated when the devices perform up to (or down to) their spec, and then claim Windows or PCs suck. Reminding those users that they got what they paid for gives them little recourse and isn't exactly a positive message.

    Aside from simplifying the purchasing process, this is another benefit of Apple's more limited, curated product lineup. They don't tend to release devices that are just a crappier version of a higher-end device. Rather, Apple ensures that even devices at the lower-end of their lineup still provide a decent core software experience.

    OEMs--as well as carriers--must realize that the incrementalizing approach to device differentiation doesn't work well in this time of hero devices. Nobody wants a slow phone, tablet, PC, etc. OEMs have to do a better job of classifying users and identifying which features are important to which users and then determine if users will pay for those features. Making users decide between processor speeds and other such technical details is a disservice since those users won't really understand the impact of those decisions until later in the ownership lifecycle. RIM seems to recognize this and has based their BB10 product lineup around distinct user types: those who prioritize screen real estate, those who prioritize the typing experience, and perhaps a third category. I hope that *when* (yes, I'm being optimistic here) BB10 takes off, RIM doesn't fall back to its old habits.
    Jake Storm likes this.
    08-26-12 08:28 PM
  20. Taktalok's Avatar
    lol this is awesome
    BBPandy, GTiLeo, Syrous44 and 3 others like this.
    08-27-12 12:01 AM
  21. hurds's Avatar
    There's a difference between stealing a concept and ripping off an entire phone/OS/design philosophy, including everything down to the PACKAGING. If you can't see the difference, then you're possessed with what I'm calling IAHS.
    What is this? I need to tell my doctor what I have!

    LG should get in on the action.

    I don't think anyone was buying a samsung based on the packaging. It doesn't say much for what apple thinks of their consumers if apple believes they don't know the difference between an apple symbol and the word 'samsung', if we are supposed to believe thats the only difference. Everyone should check their phones now just to make sure they know what they bought.

    Anyone know what took this case so long? Samsungs already on galaxy III.
    Syrous44 and bigbmc26 like this.
    08-27-12 02:44 AM
  22. Dapper37's Avatar
    Going forward companies may want to pursue their patent litigation outside the USA. Unfair verdicts towards non US corporations is nothing new. Frankly its getting out of hand. It's called American exceptionalisim by any means necessary!
    Syrous44, bigbmc26 and Jake Storm like this.
    08-27-12 02:48 AM
  23. southlander's Avatar
    Finally... someone who actually understands the Picasso quote. Finally. LOL.

    As to another post: I read somewhere that Steve Jobs' biggest skill was his ability to say "no" to ideas. He surrounded himself with very smart and innovative people, and then encouraged ideas. The ones he thought were bad were sent back.

    The message: perfect it, or get something else going.

    If Cook can do a fraction of that, Apple will be well off for a while.

    And, to another post: the difference between Apple and RIm with regards to how they deal with being at the top of the tech world... well, Apple, IMHO, stumbled backwards into smartphone dominance, but stumbling into it did allow it to leverage the fact that it has done well to inculcate itself into the everyday lives of ordinary people.

    In other words, it created a hard-to-ignore ecosystem (dodges AG ) that attracts people. Phones, tablets, entertainment, mobility. It's exciting to see, even for folks like me who don't use Apple products.
    Lol. Yes everyone pretty much knows Picasso said it and then Jobs repeated it in some form or other.

    Sent from my flip-phone.
    08-27-12 02:51 AM
  24. varunsain's Avatar
    A few more months and you can see Apple going down starting after the launch of the iPhone 5.. Big Fail.

    Apple was Steve Jobs and all about him.. No one knows what was in the head of Steve Jobs to come up with all the stuff he did.. because even Steve Jobs didn't know it till he stole the idea from someone haha..
    Jake Storm likes this.
    08-27-12 03:30 AM
  25. Mr.Willie's Avatar
    The only reason Apple got away with suing them without any social backlash is because it's become a standard to sue someone for anything. Companies are suing each other left and right for petty reasons just because they can.
    I don't know the specifics of this case, but I've been following many others and I'm just tired of all of it.
    They got away with suing them (and won) because Samsung willfully violated Apple patents. Legitimate patents that other companies license from them and Samasung refused. Follow it (at least a little bit), before commenting please.

    lol this is awesome
    It's actually pretty stupid. I haven't heard anyone say that Microsoft stole the idea from Apple. They actually licensed some patents from Apple, (As Apple does from them. Hey two large competing companies that learned how to get along.) and signed a non copy agreement.


    A few more months and you can see Apple going down starting after the launch of the iPhone 5.. Big Fail.
    Just like the 3GS, the 4, and the 4S.
    Last edited by Mr.Willie; 08-27-12 at 03:39 AM.
    08-27-12 03:31 AM
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