[tech42er]

Why would one voluntarily sacrifice their Constitutionally protected right to privacy by providing fully traceable, step-by-step location data to Verizon and/or any organizations/businesses/governmental entities who care to purchase (or subpoena) that information from Verizon?

~STS~

Great, then DON'T GET A CELL PHONE. If you do, you are voluntarily waiving that right and can easily be tracked.

[Didimus]

@Branta

Ah ok, I was not sure if it was a separate chip or not. Thanks for the info.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[StrictlyTopSecret]

But, how would you propose that they disable the ability to track you through your cell phone? The towers and phone necessarily communicate with one another. There's no way to disable that ability without disabling the phone.

Simply do not record (overwrite as necessary with the new location data) or retain that data for any longer than is necessary to ensure proper functioning of the phone in real time. All location-based (and other personal) data should be dumped and destroyed on a routine basis (e.g., hourly, every 24 hours, every week) by the carrier unless the end user grants permission to record it and/or make it available.

This would (at least marginally) protect user's privacy.

~STS~

[StrictlyTopSecret]

Great, then DON'T GET A CELL PHONE. If you do, you are voluntarily waiving that right and can easily be tracked.

At least theoretically, in the USA, one is not required to "waive" one's Constitutionally guaranteed rights unless convicted of a crime, nor is the government (theoretically at least) granted the power to arbitrarily suspend the rights of its law abiding citizenry. The last time I checked, cell phone use did not constitute criminal behavior.

[editguy]

This would (at least marginally) protect user's privacy.

~STS~

I think it would be very marginal. Additionally, when you're on the internet where you go can be tracked through your ISP. Whether we like it or not, technology is what it is and the government will use it for purpose approved by the courts. The genie is out of the bottle and there's no way to put it back. The only way I see to avoid it is to avoid the technology.

Oh, and not that it's relevant to this thread, this is my 100th post!

[Mamaluka]

Hey strictlytopsecret, if you don't mind. Why don't you want this feature, even if its disabled, in your phone? Its probably a very well integrated piece of hardware that would be very difficult to remove without voiding warrantys or worse, breaking the device to do so. I'm always curious as to why people wants such things. Then again, your nickname on the board seems to give me some ideas.
Its kind of like the guy who asks, "hey, does anyone know the best way to walk into a room and not leave DNA behind?"

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Mamaluka]

I hate WAP sometimes you can't tell how many pages there are. OK, so now I know why. Its a civil rights issue. Well, I kind of like the fact that cellular phones can be tracked. As long as you're doing the right thing and not breaking the law, why the gripe? My neighbor was just beaten to death, the police are surely checking into cellular tracking for some timeline clues. Its used daily and we should be keeping track of lots of people walking this planet. I think they need keeping track of.
-=-]

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[the_sandman_454]

Can you please show us where the US Constitution guarantees your right to privacy, because it must be in a different version than the one I have a copy of.

What the Constitution protects you against is unlawful searches and seizure by the government, which doesn't equal privacy, and doesn't apply to voluntary services provided by private entities you sign up for like cellular phone providers.

Keep in mind the providers likely keep location/tower data for billing purposes as well, so its not just a matter of deleting it.

Keep in mind that the government still needs a subpoena for records or to tap you, or at the very least someone needs to swear or affirm a valid reason for accessing said records.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[StrictlyTopSecret]

Can you please show us where the US Constitution guarantees your right to privacy, because it must be in a different version than the one I have a copy of.

Perhaps your copy is missing the page delineating the 9th Amendment?

I've appended it below for your convenience.

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

The right to privacy is inherent and fundamental.

In addition, unreasonable search and seizure protections do include conversations via telephone. See: Katz vs United States.

[the_sandman_454]

I agree, we have protection in place against the government using our information in an unlawful manner. They can't access your phone records or location simply because they are the government, they are required to show cause and in most cases require them to go before a judge to get subpoenas to access the records.

What you do not seem to be grasping is the idea that the Constitution applies only to Government entities, and provides no protection against policies of private companies that you voluntarily utilize, and agree to their terms of use. Therefore the phone company has every right to data about your location, etc. You agreed to it either expressly or implied when you signed the contract to utilize their equipment.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[StrictlyTopSecret]

I...the Constitution applies only to Government entities, and provides no protection against policies of private companies that you voluntarily utilize, and agree to their terms of use. ...

You are apparently unaware that that FCC (a governmental entity) regulations now REQUIRE that the aforementioned PRIVATE companies (and by extension, those who purchase their services) implement the e911 technology.

[beavercountyemt]

Holy cow. I read this post and find it extremely funny. We have 8 billion posts about getting gps to work and now sts wants to dissable it totally. He must work for verizon and wants to see what thw average consumer is saying. Here's the deal sts your a paranoid conspiracy therorist. If you aint got nothin to hide who the **** cares who's looking at where u are. Unless the other poster was right and your tryin to hide your affair from your wife. Or tryin to hide terrorist or other criminal activity from the feds. Even with gps turned off they will eventually catch u one way or another

As a side note: if you find a way to totally dissable your gps and god forbid something happens to you and u need that gps signal to save your life; don't cry to me when I answer your 911 call and I can't find you through e911 stage 2 and verizon,sprint,altell,att,search and rescue,the feds,and whoever else may tray and save your *** can't find you.

PS just so you know stage 2 e911 will find you without your gps. Its all about cell triangulation. So just to make you more paranoid, they will find you with or without your gps on. So just remember


THE FEDS ARE WATCHING YOU

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[the_sandman_454]

STS: If you don't want to be tracked by e911, the solution is easy... Don't call 911. Dude, seriously, why do you not want the 911 operator to know where you're at?

Why do you feel it to be unreasonable for the government to know where you're at when you are calling them to ask for help? I mean why else would you call 911? They're going to want to know where you're at anyway when you call them...

I can tell you it helped expedite the paramedics/rescue squad to me when I called 911 after my motorcycle/deer accident and was pinned to the ground by the bike. Was shaken up enough initially to where I had a harder time explaining where exactly I was. They utilized the e911 thing and located me. I definitely think its a good thing.

Now if the government wanted access to the GPS the entire time I'd agree with you completely that itd be unconstitutional. However as mentioned this is non intrusive and it only activates when you call 911.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Branta]

Maybe this http://forums.crackberry.com/f40/man...ug-ring-78024/ has got him worried. Maybe 'they' would already like to meet and talk to him

[Mamaluka]

These are the kinds of discussions I like reading about. Another thing about the phone system itself. In most or maybe all states the the phone company(s) are regulated as a Public Utility. Its a publicly used technology, not intended for the "at will" private use of any person at any time. I have seen leaders of this big brother Government shamed due to taped phone conversations. So to reiterate: if you cool, we cool.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[joe6paq]

I can think of non-nefarious reasons why someone wouldn't want to be tracked. A corporate executive meeting on a possible merger wouldn't want a competitor or stock broker to know. A woman being stalked fearing for her safety. Even though this information is only supposed to known to the government it's not unheard of for people to get paid off.

[jenaywins]

Holy cow. I read this post and find it extremely funny. We have 8 billion posts about getting gps to work and now sts wants to dissable it totally. He must work for verizon and wants to see what thw average consumer is saying. Here's the deal sts your a paranoid conspiracy therorist. If you aint got nothin to hide who the **** cares who's looking at where u are. Unless the other poster was right and your tryin to hide your affair from your wife. Or tryin to hide terrorist or other criminal activity from the feds. Even with gps turned off they will eventually catch u one way or another

As a side note: if you find a way to totally dissable your gps and god forbid something happens to you and u need that gps signal to save your life; don't cry to me when I answer your 911 call and I can't find you through e911 stage 2 and verizon,sprint,altell,att,search and rescue,the feds,and whoever else may tray and save your *** can't find you.

PS just so you know stage 2 e911 will find you without your gps. Its all about cell triangulation. So just to make you more paranoid, they will find you with or without your gps on. So just remember


THE FEDS ARE WATCHING YOU

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

Your post is rude and uncalled for. I don't personally agree with STS' viewpoints and I have no issue with GPS, but that doesn't mean he needs to be attacked. Not once has he become nasty or combative, regardless of whether people here agree with him or not. You should think before you post.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[beavercountyemt]

In no way was my post rude. Simply stating facts. If u felt it was rude I appologise.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[StrictlyTopSecret]

...Why do you feel it to be unreasonable for the government to know where you're at when you are calling them to ask for help?

That is, indeed, quite reasonable. Were I to place a call to 911 operators, I clearly would have no expectation of privacy. Quite the opposite would be true. I would place the call with the intention of being found.

The issue, is that this tracking information is not limited to 911 calls. Not by a long shot. Nor is a court order required to obtain it. A government official need only state that it is "relevant" to an ongoing investigation (no evidence of wrongdoing is required). Wireless providers must comply and provide (past or present) tracking information merely on issue of such a request.

I can tell you it helped expedite the paramedics/rescue squad to me when I called 911 after my motorcycle/deer accident and was pinned to the ground by the bike. ..I definitely think its a good thing.

Agreed. It is most assuredly helpful for citizens to be traceable up on their request.

Now if the government wanted access to the GPS the entire time I'd agree with you completely that itd be unconstitutional.

Unfortunately, this is precisely the case. See Police blotter: Judge lets Feds track cell phones - CNET News for a ruling on this issue 3 years ago. See Wireless location tracking draws privacy questions - CNET News for an article outlining some other wireless communications/tracking related privacy concerns.

~STS~

[paul.r]

That's the whole point here. GPS is not required on a cellular device. Look at the RIM range available today, GPS is available on about 5 of the 20 or so different models. The rest don't have GPS and it is legal to sell, supply, and set to work any of these models.

Actually, all cell phones sold in the last few years are required to have e911. Most carriers won't even activate a phone that doesn't comply. e911 is completely different than the active GPS in devices like the 8310 and Bold. It will give your location in an emergency situation, but cannot be used like a navigation GPS.

[unmasked]

Any power/right not expressly given the government in the Constitution (and its amendments) remains with the people.

Just a slight correction.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

That is the 10th amendment, part of the bill of rights. I'm no legal scholar but if what you say is true then why am I paying sales taxes?

[Branta]

Actually, all cell phones sold in the last few years are required to have e911. Most carriers won't even activate a phone that doesn't comply. e911 is completely different than the active GPS in devices like the 8310 and Bold. It will give your location in an emergency situation, but cannot be used like a navigation GPS.

The 'requirement' that the mobile device supports e911 might exist in law (citation anyone?) but the facts of e911 are rather more basic. The location service is based at the cell towers and operator's center. Any phone compatible with current use cellular technology (GSM/3G or CDMA) can be tracked. All it needs is for the phone to be switched on and in contact with the network.

Even the oldest phone designs from before e911 was ever dreamed up can be tracked with the same accuracy as a non-GPS Curve or Pearl. Adding GPS to the equation simply reduces the uncertainty to better than a few yards rather than tens or hundreds of yards.

[StrictlyTopSecret]

The 'requirement' that the mobile device supports e911 might exist in law (citation anyone?)

FCC's page summarizing E911 legislation

Enhanced 911 - Wireless Services


Additional material directly related to the above discussion:

FCC - Communications Assistance for Law Enforcement Act

~STS~

[topher65001]

so now that the storm is out, does anyone know if the GPS really works, i guess i'm a little confused, i just ordered a storm and just was looking for a little info. is google maps going to actually show my actual GPS location or will it triangulate my location with in so many meters?

[cp1224]

So far, it seems that Google Maps is triangulating on mine, while BB Maps is dead on accurate. I may be doing something wrong with Google, however. The GPS is unlocked.