02-22-16 07:55 PM
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  1. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    I don't have to believe they could have spent as much as samsung, because Samsung wanted to be the number one in the android world. Bb could have been number one with their own OS, after all most non tech users would never consider the kindle OS android, they are just happy it has lots of apps.

    Let me ask you a question however, Do you honestly believe that 3-4 years ago it would have been easier and costed less to turn qnx into a mobile smartphone OS then it would be to turn android into a smartphone OS? (Hint android already was a smartphone OS)
    And be number xxxxxx of (unprofitable) OEMs releasing a variant of Google's Android, fighting on the same front than low cost Chinese makers ? Costless ? Probably. But that's it.

    See how difficult it is for Samsung to make Knox anything but laughable. I (and Chen) don't pretend it won't be valuable in the future, but with the same timeframe - as of date - they didn't succeed and won't before a couple of years. You have to consider BlackBerry OS as a part of a whole, including the back-end (BES). Without this "bottom up" structure, BlackBerry wouldn't have their DOD, security aware enterprises and governments agreements <= where BB DNA and money are.
    Call it the kiss of death.
    01-09-14 02:29 AM
  2. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Part of my point is perhaps to some degree it was a personnel issue. Perhaps the entrenched BBOS folks were throwing up roadblocks that made it difficult to totally re-engineer the innards of the BBOS. Perhaps that is partly why the memory leaks and other persistent BBOS issues could never be ironed out. Perhaps the upper management just said hey, we'll just start from scratch. Hand over the reins to someone else.

    Just speculation. Yeah. But folks have a point that BBOS was around long enough for all its issues to have been fixed. So then why were they not? Why did anyone ever need to pull a battery by the time BBOS 7 debuted? I had and still have a 9930 and a 9850. Could do a fresh wipe and install the OS and after several days notice it bog down noticeably. BlackBerry 10 doesn't do that.


    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    Actually it's a well known fact the Bb10 devices do randomly reboot all the time, I've seen my Q10 do it every few days, most people will not notice it but mine was in front of me in a car dock all the time in my line if view (I drive for a living). It's hard to miss the red light coming on followed by the reboot screen.

    Also there's a big memory leak problem too, but it has plenty memory now so it doesn't affect it too much.
    01-09-14 02:53 AM
  3. ekv's Avatar
    Just because an operating system is old, does not mean it has to be flushed out completely and replaced by something that looks and feels much different to the older one. Re-write from scratch, but keep the look feel the same.
    Unix is still around and doing its part as a Server OS. Its old, patched 1000s of times... but its still Unix and maintains its essence and flavor

    Unix had a re-wite from assembly to C in 1972, they did not make the new OS drastically different as far as the users are concerned.
    Internals are completely different, but interface, APIs, commands remained 99% same.

    Would that kind of approach not have worked ?

    Mod QNX till it has all the features of BBOS. If QNX is such a powerful and flexible OS, what use is it when it cant even be made to have the features of an "old" OS..

    People "see" iOS and Android, not the unix base on which they are built on. So, just give the people the interface and the features they want.
    Let the OS be unix, dos, java or what ever xyz based.

    So, IMHO its easier to change / port / include modules in a existing OS than to "buy" a new OS and later find out it does not play well with any of your existing environment.

    AIX is much more complex and is harder to maintain. But IBM does a pretty good job of maintaining it for the past 15 yeas or so.
    Anyone sees them changing it drastically and breaking compatibility with current software coz its old ?
    belfastdispatcher and hanexs like this.
    01-09-14 03:13 AM
  4. lnichols's Avatar
    I don't have to believe they could have spent as much as samsung, because Samsung wanted to be the number one in the android world. Bb could have been number one with their own OS, after all most non tech users would never consider the kindle OS android, they are just happy it has lots of apps.

    Let me ask you a question however, Do you honestly believe that 3-4 years ago it would have been easier and costed less to turn qnx into a mobile smartphone OS then it would be to turn android into a smartphone OS? (Hint android already was a smartphone OS)
    Look how long it is taking companies to secure it for FIPS. Plus every new update of software requires recertification because of the monolithic kernel where BB10 does not. I'm sure BlackBerry looked at options and decided the QNX route based on the security, even though their were plenty of easier paths to just get a new more capable OS out.

    Posted via CB10
    Superfly_FR and web99 like this.
    01-09-14 05:39 AM
  5. qwerty4ever's Avatar

    Using a ten year old OS isn't what I was inquiring about, rather I am just wondering if the considerable amount of work poured into BB10, could it have been better redirected at improving/modernizing BBOS.
    No, the legacy BBOS is limited and only Oracle can modify the JavaME OS. BlackBerry OS 10 is necessary but BlackBerry should end support for the legacy platform immediately and force users to move to BlackBerry OS 10. Price the BlackBerry Q5 at USD149.99 discounted to USD99.99 if you trade-in a legacy BlackBerry smartphone off-contract. The BlackBerry Z10 could be priced at USD249.99 discounted to USD199.99 with a legacy BlackBerry smartphone trade-in off-contract. End BIS service by 31 December 2014 globally.

    Posted via CB10
    extisis likes this.
    01-09-14 06:01 AM
  6. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    No, the legacy BBOS is limited and only Oracle can modify the JavaME OS. BlackBerry OS 10 is necessary but BlackBerry should end support for the legacy platform immediately and force users to move to BlackBerry OS 10. Price the BlackBerry Q5 at USD149.99 discounted to USD99.99 if you trade-in a legacy BlackBerry smartphone off-contract. The BlackBerry Z10 could be priced at USD249.99 discounted to USD199.99 with a legacy BlackBerry smartphone trade-in off-contract. End BIS service by 31 December 2014 globally.

    Posted via CB10
    From what I understand from a former employee that posted earlier the core of the OS is C++ not Java.
    01-09-14 06:31 AM
  7. lnichols's Avatar
    Again, this thread is in the PAST, when the decision to go build a brand new OS was made.

    Let's put it back in context she'll we? Up to that time and after the user base was still growing and they were still making profits regardless of the market share shrinking.
    User base growing, but the growth was slowing and shifting from high dollar high profit phones in established markets, to low end, low profit or loss phones in emerging markets. The service revenue per device in these emerging, cost conscience markets was cheaper than the service revenue per device they were getting in the established markets, and all of their markets were pushing them to lower the service revenues. So they had growth, but it clearly wasn't pure positive growth, nor sustainable with BBOS. These are the facts that you can look at any of the earnings reports of that time for corroboration.

    Posted via CB10
    kbz1960 and MarsupilamiX like this.
    01-09-14 07:38 AM
  8. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    User base growing, but the growth was slowing and shifting from high dollar high profit phones in established markets, to low end, low profit or loss phones in emerging markets. The service revenue per device in these emerging, cost conscience markets was cheaper than the service revenue per device they were getting in the established markets, and all of their markets were pushing them to lower the service revenues. So they had growth, but it clearly wasn't pure positive growth, nor sustainable with BBOS. These are the facts that you can look at any of the earnings reports of that time for corroboration.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm pretty sure the long delay to bringing the OS7 devices out, the changing the processor an rewriting the software at the last minute ate into their profits at that time.
    01-09-14 07:42 AM
  9. lnichols's Avatar

    Considering how long it took to create Bb10, along with the turf wars and schisms it created, not to mention the marketing disaster of telling people your abandoning your Os years before your ready to switch, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be better off with an android fork. This whole discussion depends on how many man hours it takes to create a product. Sure Bb10 was a great idea, but when you see what it costed to create it, including work time but also just the sheer amount of time the company waited and watched without a product people wanted, it's hard to say that it was a good descision. Conversely, forking android, adding some security features and a bb10 like GUI/inbox would have taken 20-30 percent of the time (my educated guess). And we would have had apps immediately, without having to bribe developers to make them.
    What you state here is simply that RIM lacked strong leadership, and/or out of touch leadership, and organizational structure to accomplish the task of building a new OS in a timely manor. If you have a project, and some turf wars break out that threaten the time line, then you axe a few people as an example and tell people to get it done or the axe will swing again. Unfortunately it sounds like Waterloo had too much of a good old boys system and we got a pathetic unfinished PlayBook product and launch, and a unfinished BB10 product launch. Strong leadership and job cuts earlier in the process would have focused BlackBerry much quicker and provided results.

    Posted via CB10
    01-09-14 07:46 AM
  10. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    What you state here is simply that RIM lacked strong leadership, and/or out of touch leadership, and organizational structure to accomplish the task of building a new OS in a timely manor. If you have a project, and some turf wars break out that threaten the time line, then you axe a few people as an example and tell people to get it done or the axe will swing again. Unfortunately it sounds like Waterloo had too much of a good old boys system and we got a pathetic unfinished PlayBook product and launch, and a unfinished BB10 product launch. Strong leadership and job cuts earlier in the process would have focused BlackBerry much quicker and provided results.

    Posted via CB10
    You can also add BB7 lineup to that list, it was also late and unfinished at launch, it took months of updates to improved it.
    01-09-14 07:50 AM
  11. lnichols's Avatar
    I'm pretty sure the long delay to bringing the OS7 devices out, the changing the processor an rewriting the software at the last minute ate into their profits at that time.
    Device ASP was dropping every quarter because emerging market devices were selling for much less, and generating much less profit per device. Service revenues were increasing, but not at a fixed rate per subscriber as these markets were getting less service revenue per customer. These are facts.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX and web99 like this.
    01-09-14 07:54 AM
  12. Bishkin's Avatar
    BlackBerry OS 10 is necessary but BlackBerry should end support for the legacy platform immediately and force users to move to BlackBerry OS 10. Price the BlackBerry Q5 at USD149.99 discounted to USD99.99 if you trade-in a legacy BlackBerry smartphone off-contract. The BlackBerry Z10 could be priced at USD249.99 discounted to USD199.99 with a legacy BlackBerry smartphone trade-in off-contract. End BIS service by 31 December 2014 globally.

    Posted via CB10
    If BB end the legacy platform immediately, then yes all these legacy users will have not choice but to migrate. One third of these users will switch to iOS, a third to Android and the remaining one third to BB10. BB getting a third here is rather generous already, because they were ditched.
    01-09-14 07:54 AM
  13. Bishkin's Avatar
    Device ASP was dropping every quarter because emerging market devices were selling for much less, and generating much less profit per device. Service revenues were increasing, but not at a fixed rate per subscriber as these markets were getting less service revenue per customer. These are facts.

    Posted via CB10
    Samsung shipped less high end devices than previously. Emerging markets' users are more demanding. Whatever features that are on the high end ones, they want it on the low end models that costs less. Which is why this year will see more cheaper devices with HD screens and faster processors.
    01-09-14 08:03 AM
  14. lnichols's Avatar
    Samsung shipped less high end devices than previously. Emerging markets' users are more demanding. Whatever features that are on the high end ones, they want it on the low end models that costs less. Which is why this year will see more cheaper devices with HD screens and faster processors.

    That isn't "demanding", it is buying the phone they can afford,which is not $600 flagship device. They will buy the best features for lowest money. This is what I call manufacturers trying to attract customers with differentiation and price, not consumers being demanding.

    Posted via CB10
    MarsupilamiX and web99 like this.
    01-09-14 08:30 AM
  15. Bishkin's Avatar
    That isn't "demanding", it is buying the phone they can afford,which is not $600 flagship device. They will buy the best features for lowest money. This is what I call manufacturers trying to attract customers with differentiation and price, not consumers being demanding.

    Posted via CB10
    If that isn't demanding, then try getting the price down to $150 for a $210 handset with quad core, HD screen with HD sound, some even with good audio chip, without contract.
    01-09-14 08:43 AM
  16. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Actually it's a well known fact the Bb10 devices do randomly reboot all the time, I've seen my Q10 do it every few days, most people will not notice it but mine was in front of me in a car dock all the time in my line if view (I drive for a living). It's hard to miss the red light coming on followed by the reboot screen.

    Also there's a big memory leak problem too, but it has plenty memory now so it doesn't affect it too much.
    Not that this has anything to do with the topic of the thread, but actually it is not a well known fact because they do not all re boot all the time. Limited devices had a rebooting problem shortly after launch, but that has mostly been resolved with OS updates. Very, very few continue to have this issue.

    And BB10 does not have a memory leak problem. It uses RAM entirely differently than BBOS and even the PB's OS.

    You don't like BB10 -- we get it. BB10 is irrelevant to the topic of this thread -- please stop dragging it back into the discussion. Just trying to keep it in context, per your own earlier post.
    01-09-14 09:06 AM
  17. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    If that isn't demanding, then try getting the price down to $150 for a $210 handset with quad core, HD screen with HD sound, some even with good audio chip, without contract.
    I don't get your point though...
    I can buy that right now, for the price range you suggest.
    Local Android manufacturers have been pumping out such devices for quite some time.

    Posted via CB10
    01-09-14 09:08 AM
  18. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Not that this has anything to do with the topic of the thread, but actually it is not a well known fact because they do not all re boot all the time. Limited devices had a rebooting problem shortly after launch, but that has mostly been resolved with OS updates. Very, very few continue to have this issue.

    And BB10 does not have a memory leak problem. It uses RAM entirely differently than BBOS and even the PB's OS.

    You don't like BB10 -- we get it. BB10 is irrelevant to the topic of this thread -- please stop dragging it back into the discussion. Just trying to keep it in context, per your own earlier post.
    Actually search the forum for "bb10 memory leak" and you'll see plenty threads about it.
    01-09-14 09:40 AM
  19. kbz1960's Avatar
    From what I understand from a former employee that posted earlier the core of the OS is C++ not Java.
    Got any links on that?
    01-09-14 09:43 AM
  20. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Got any links on that?
    Earlier in the thread.
    01-09-14 09:45 AM
  21. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    Actually search the forum for "bb10 memory leak" and you'll see plenty threads about it.
    Wow....
    You just convinced me that BBOS was far better concerning memory leaks...
    The ultimate proof was given...

    The reality distortion field must be pretty strong where you live.

    Posted via CB10
    extisis likes this.
    01-09-14 09:47 AM
  22. kbz1960's Avatar
    Earlier in the thread.
    Not digging. I searched and all I could find is j2me, is that a link or what some former or not former employee said?
    01-09-14 09:47 AM
  23. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Wow....
    You just convinced me that BBOS was far better concerning memory leaks...
    The ultimate proof was given...

    The reality distortion field must be pretty strong where you live.

    Posted via CB10
    I don't say it was better, I just said the problem exists on Bb10 too.

    And I'm at work, I don't have time to post links, but they are there.
    01-09-14 09:50 AM
  24. kbz1960's Avatar
    Wow....
    You just convinced me that BBOS was far better concerning memory leaks...
    The ultimate proof was given...

    The reality distortion field must be pretty strong where you live.

    Posted via CB10
    I guess from now on...... search for t is the best response.
    01-09-14 09:50 AM
  25. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Not digging. I searched and all I could find is j2me, is that a link or what some former or not former employee said?
    I don't have time to dig for it at the moment, working. If you missed his post is suggest you read it, very informative.


    Edit page 6 post by pasha133. Enjoy!
    01-09-14 09:51 AM
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