02-22-16 07:55 PM
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  1. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Are you kidding me? Have you ever had an early BB device in your hand? Those things ran on less then 10mb memory. BBOS was improved 1000 times over,

    Thy fixed BBOS many times before and try could've done it again.
    Again I ask you -- don't you think they would have tried to continue improving it before deciding to embark on the road to develop an entirely new mobile OS? Seriously, think about time and resources they knew would be involved in that process (which even that they underestimated); do you really think they would commit to that before milking every last drop of usability out of the old platform? I know Mike and Jim have been accused of making some poor decisions; if anything, they put BBOS out to pasture too late, not too soon.
    kbz1960 likes this.
    01-08-14 05:09 PM
  2. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I really like to pop in a thread, and not see personal attacks tossed about, by the same old save old.....
    Then you might try here: Love Forum - Online Relationship Discussion

    <DISCLAIMER> I have nothing to do with that site -- it happened to be the first one to come up in a Google search for love forums. <END DISCLAIMER>
    01-08-14 05:14 PM
  3. David Murray1's Avatar
    In hindsight BB10 was an expensive mistake and now BlackBerry are resorting to pouring resources into making it work like Android when they should just have forked Android to start with. QNX is meh. So what if it's used in cars.
    01-08-14 05:17 PM
  4. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    Then you might try here: Love Forum - Online Relationship Discussion

    <DISCLAIMER> I have nothing to do with that site -- it happened to be the first one to come up in a Google search for love forums. <END DISCLAIMER>
    I noticed you used the same disclaimer when posting there too.
    01-08-14 05:25 PM
  5. sleepngbear's Avatar
    In hindsight BB10 was an expensive mistake and now BlackBerry are resorting to pouring resources into making it work like Android when they should just have forked Android to start with. QNX is meh. So what if it's used in cars.
    And then you would have another Knox, which Samsung still has neither gotten to work right nor as secure as BBOS or BB10. No thanks, Android was NOT the answer.

    However, assuming it was a viable option, then it sounds like your answer the OP's question of whether a new OS was needed would be a 'yes'.
    Superfly_FR, kbz1960 and web99 like this.
    01-08-14 05:25 PM
  6. sleepngbear's Avatar
    I noticed you used the same disclaimer when posting there too.
    That was you??!!??
    01-08-14 05:26 PM
  7. hanexs's Avatar
    And then you would have another Knox, which Samsung still has neither gotten to work right nor as secure as BBOS or BB10. No thanks, Android was NOT the answer.

    However, assuming it was a viable option, then it sounds like your answer the OP's question of whether a new OS was needed would be a 'yes'.
    Kind of not really capturing my intent in the post. Sure bbos7 was not good enough, and a "new os" was needed. But I am trying to get at the point that maybe, with a whole lot of work and coding. BBOS8, 9 and 10 could have been good enough, maybe with some focus it could have been the OS that was needed.

    Considering how long it took to create Bb10, along with the turf wars and schisms it created, not to mention the marketing disaster of telling people your abandoning your Os years before your ready to switch, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be better off with an android fork. This whole discussion depends on how many man hours it takes to create a product. Sure Bb10 was a great idea, but when you see what it costed to create it, including work time but also just the sheer amount of time the company waited and watched without a product people wanted, it's hard to say that it was a good descision. Conversely, forking android, adding some security features and a bb10 like GUI/inbox would have taken 20-30 percent of the time (my educated guess). And we would have had apps immediately, without having to bribe developers to make them.
    01-08-14 05:57 PM
  8. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    Kind of not really capturing my intent in the post. Sure bbos7 was not good enough, and a "new os" was needed. But I am trying to get at the point that maybe, with a whole lot of work and coding. BBOS8, 9 and 10 could have been good enough, maybe with some focus it could have been the OS that was needed.
    Unfortunately, not. It's not about enhancing an existing system. It's about rebuilding another one. Whatever the core is (and I believe Oracle/Java wasn't a valid option).

    Considering how long it took to create Bb10, along with the turf wars and schisms it created, not to mention the marketing disaster of telling people your abandoning your Os years before your ready to switch, I find it hard to believe they wouldn't be better off with an android fork. This whole discussion depends on how many man hours it takes to create a product. Sure Bb10 was a great idea, but when you see what it costed to create it, including work time but also just the sheer amount of time the company waited and watched without a product people wanted, it's hard to say that it was a good descision. Conversely, forking android, adding some security features and a bb10 like GUI/inbox would have taken 20-30 percent of the time (my educated guess). And we would have had apps immediately, without having to bribe developers to make them.
    [O.T]For Samsung to be succesfull and earning money with Android (btw, they're unique one of a kind), they spent years in development (with a huge dedicated task force at work), and $Billions per year (I think we're talking of $3Billions+ for 2013 alone) to sustain one of the most aggressive marketing and communication program ... ever seen for this type of goods.
    Do you really believe BlackBerry could have afforded that three years ago ?
    "Adding" security is not an option. For BlackBerry to sustain his level of security, it has to be the fundation of the system. Not a pile of extra layers and patches ... like others are.
    01-08-14 06:28 PM
  9. hanexs's Avatar
    Unfortunately, not. It's not about enhancing an existing system. It's about rebuilding another one. Whatever the core is (and I believe Oracle/Java wasn't a valid option).


    [O.T]For Samsung to be succesfull and earning money with Android (btw, they're unique one of a kind), they spent years in development (with a huge dedicated task force at work), and $Billions per year (I think we're talking of $3Billions+ for 2013 alone) to sustain one of the most aggressive marketing and communication program ... ever seen for this type of goods.
    Do you really believe BlackBerry could have afforded that three years ago ?
    "Adding" security is not an option. For BlackBerry to sustain his level of security, it has to be the fundation of the system. Not a pile of extra layers and patches ... like others are.
    I don't have to believe they could have spent as much as samsung, because Samsung wanted to be the number one in the android world. Bb could have been number one with their own OS, after all most non tech users would never consider the kindle OS android, they are just happy it has lots of apps.

    Let me ask you a question however, Do you honestly believe that 3-4 years ago it would have been easier and costed less to turn qnx into a mobile smartphone OS then it would be to turn android into a smartphone OS? (Hint android already was a smartphone OS)
    01-08-14 07:12 PM
  10. MarsupilamiX's Avatar
    I don't have to believe they could have spent as much as samsung, because Samsung wanted to be the number one in the android world. Bb could have been number one with their own OS, after all most non tech users would never consider the kindle OS android, they are just happy it has lots of apps.

    Let me ask you a question however, Do you honestly believe that 3-4 years ago it would have been easier and costed less to turn qnx into a mobile smartphone OS then it would be to turn android into a smartphone OS? (Hint android already was a smartphone OS)
    So you actually agree that they needed a new OS?

    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by MarsupilamiX; 01-08-14 at 09:17 PM.
    01-08-14 07:42 PM
  11. lnichols's Avatar
    Yep. It all reminds me of Palm's deep-sixing of Palm OS in favor of Web OS. Those who had all the applications for Palm OS were left on the outside if they wanted to upgrade to a Pre, and they had to purchase all those applications again to work on the new OS.

    And then the new OS wasn't as efficient and user-friendly as the older Palm OS.

    Meanwhile, other phones out there were using operating systems with more available applications, while Palm asked developers to write applications for Web OS. There were too few takers. See any parallels?

    It was an answer to a question nobody asked, and Palm went the way of the Dodo.
    Palm OS had the same issue as BBOS, it was very limited and had reach the end of its useful life. I had the Palm III through the Centro and got tired of waiting to the Palm to deliver the new OS and switched to BBOS. Just like BlackBerry, Palm waited till the brand was tarnished, and people were defecting in droves to other platforms, then released a decent IS on lame hardware at a high price, and I think on one carrier initially too.

    Posted via CB10
    01-08-14 07:58 PM
  12. Bishkin's Avatar
    BBOS with an Android runtime, if that is possible? ....
    01-08-14 08:11 PM
  13. sleepngbear's Avatar
    Let me ask you a question however, Do you honestly believe that 3-4 years ago it would have been easier and costed less to turn qnx into a mobile smartphone OS then it would be to turn android into a smartphone OS? (Hint android already was a smartphone OS)
    Sure going with Android would have cost less. And BB would be just another phone running it. As Superfly kind of mentioned, Samsung is the only device manufacturer making any kind of money off Android, and it cost them plenty to get there. BB running Android would be perceived as one more me-too phone manufacturer with nowhere near the security benefits they can still boast, despite the sorry sales of BB10 right now. That's still a major differentiator, and a critical one for a company whose revenues are more dependent on its enterprise customers than any of its competitors. That may not mean much to Joe Consumer (yet), but it's paramount for enterprise and governments. As difficult as it is for BBRY to hang onto those customers now, it would be near impossible had they hitched their wagon to Android. That would have spelled death faster than if they had done nothing and stuck with BBOS.
    01-08-14 08:34 PM
  14. hanexs's Avatar
    So you actually agree that they needed a new OS?

    Posted via CB10
    Im not really sure of anything. I was actually hoping to get information from former rim employees or people with experience (and granted we got a few of those ) but most of the responses have been knee jerk responses (e.g. bbos was old and coulndt be upgraded ever they needed teh future and everyone who thinks otherwise is a luddite). I agree they needed to upgrade MASSIVELY one way or another, they chose to put massive efforts into a new OS a decision I supported at the time but then again I didn't know it would take so long. I was wondering what a massive effort in a upgrading BBOS would produce, I got a few good bits of info about that question.

    So yes, they needed a new OS. But so did Windows Vista, it needed to be upgraded and eventually becam a new OS - Windows 7. They used some of the past to get to the new OS, that was an option. Obviously the RIM leaders thought it would be easier to start from scratch with a new OS, I wonder if there was any disagreement, or looking back now that we know how hard that was to achieve and how fruitless the effort was, if there are people thinking an upgrade would have been more promising.
    Last edited by hanexs; 01-08-14 at 10:13 PM.
    01-08-14 09:27 PM
  15. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I'm one who loved BBOS, but 7.1 was large an inefficient. As the apps it ran natively advanced, I noticed more and more lag/spin. I can't see how it possibly could be the right path. I miss the heck out of the deep customization with PIM, and think not offering a BIS option was a huge mistake, but the BB10 positives far exceed the negatives.

    And if you are determined to stay on BBOS, the 99xx and 9810 are still the pinnacle for pure communication to me.
    01-08-14 10:33 PM
  16. zocster's Avatar
    I'm one who loved BBOS, but 7.1 was large an inefficient. As the apps it ran natively advanced, I noticed more and more lag/spin. I can't see how it possibly could be the right path. I miss the heck out of the deep customization with PIM, and think not offering a BIS option was a huge mistake, but the BB10 positives far exceed the negatives.

    And if you are determined to stay on BBOS, the 99xx and 9810 are still the pinnacle for pure communication to me.
    Lol, mine spins running the beta BBM or even official BBM 8 with channels

    Sent from whatever device I got my hands on via Tapatalk
    BigBadWulf and Superfly_FR like this.
    01-08-14 10:48 PM
  17. johnnyuk's Avatar
    What @belfastdispatcher was saying that BB10 still doesn't have some of the features he valued from BBOS and you discounted that. BB10 cannot ever hope to compete with IOS or Android if it can't even meet the minimum requirements of a BBOS user.
    BBOS couldn't compete with iOS or Android either. If BlackBerry put every "missing" BBOS feature in to BB10 would it then suddenly be able to compete with iOS and Android, just because it now has all the features of another OS that couldn't compete?

    It will make legacy BBOS users more willing to upgrade, but it won't make a dent in Android and iOS market share.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 / 10.2.0.1803 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2
    MarsupilamiX and tre10 like this.
    01-09-14 12:03 AM
  18. johnnyuk's Avatar
    BBOS is over and it appears BB10 is also over, at least for consumers. How many quarters do you think they go on with only selling a million BB10 devices?
    BB10 is far from over, you just want it to be because you have a chip on your shoulder about it.

    If BlackBerry can start making a profit from all of its revenue streams whilst selling a million BB10 devices a quarter then that's fine. Sustainable profitability is all that matters.

    A decade ago RIM would bite your hand off if you could offer them sales of a million a quarter. It took them 5 years to get 2 million subscribers, share price was measured in cents not dollars, but they were making a PROFIT.

    What you, I and everybody else has to get used to and move on from is that BlackBerry is nothing like the company it recently used to be. It is a tiny niche player again, but that's doesn't mean it can't make money, everything will just be on a much smaller scale than before.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 / 10.2.0.1803 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 01-09-14 at 12:46 PM.
    01-09-14 12:11 AM
  19. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Proof? Or is this just your opinion?
    You haven't provided any proof of anything in this matter or is it do as I say but not as I do?

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 / 10.2.0.1803 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 01-09-14 at 01:13 AM.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    01-09-14 12:34 AM
  20. johnnyuk's Avatar
    Wow, so liking BBOS means you have poor taste in phones? LMAO
    I'm afraid in 2014 it does. It's just a big "Wow!" moment for you.

    I got my hands on a 9720 today for an hour, one of my BYOD users turned up with one after Xmas. I wish they'd asked for advice before their purchase as they paid 140 UK pounds on PAYG but a tenner more would have bagged them a Z10.

    The 9720 is certainly preferable to a 9320 but it's just Bold parts in a Curve-quality exterior. It wasn't long while I was using it before the "spinning clock of Mike Lazaridis' mismanagement" appeared which just highlighted that it's the same old ****e they've been peddling out for forever, but I suppose it's supposed to be.

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 / 10.2.0.1803 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2
    Last edited by johnnyuk; 01-09-14 at 02:31 AM.
    MarsupilamiX likes this.
    01-09-14 12:51 AM
  21. southlander's Avatar
    I don't get what is so hard to understand here.

    You say "It had reached the end of the road" but then you also say "BB7 was a bandaid to keep the ship afloat". But what if it wasn't a band aid? What if all there efforts were in it and onto even BB8?

    Are you claiming that it was IMPOSSIBLE to make BBOS use more ram, have a front facing camera, not crash as much, perform faster, make it easier to code apps for, etc? Or are you saying that it would take a insanely high amount of effort to do this? All I am trying to discuss is how that effort compares to the effort of making a new OS, and other consequences of the decision.
    Anythings possible. Perhaps the management felt it was easier to start over, with an industrial grade and mature kernel to build on, and one that has a large user base already in the enterprise and automotive systems. Seems to me they had a "grand plan" and just failed to execute it in a timely manner and complete fashion.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    Superfly_FR and web99 like this.
    01-09-14 12:57 AM
  22. extisis's Avatar
    Anythings possible. Perhaps the management felt it was easier to start over, with an industrial grade and mature kernel to build on, and one that has a large user base already in the enterprise and automotive systems. Seems to me they had a "grand plan" and just failed to execute it in a timely manner and complete fashion.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    i think you hit the nail on the head. the BB10 idea (platform, hardware and all) was and is great imho it's just that though, they didn't do it in a timely and complete fashion. now, of course it would still probably have taken the same amount of time for the devs to do their magic in the updates we've seen since 10.1 but the timely part, like you said, if they had just implemented all of this new BB architecture probably 2 years before the fact, so that it wasn't the 9810 (still have it, my precious backup) that competed with the iPhone4- it would have been the Z10 or even Z30 competing with it. But...... coulda shoulda woulda.
    MarsupilamiX and web99 like this.
    01-09-14 01:10 AM
  23. johnnyuk's Avatar
    BBOS with an Android runtime, if that is possible? ....
    Oh wow that would suck! BBOS can barely run its own apps nevermind a whole virtual machine for apps from another OS too!

    Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 / 10.2.0.1803 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2
    extisis likes this.
    01-09-14 01:33 AM
  24. belfastdispatcher's Avatar
    Anythings possible. Perhaps the management felt it was easier to start over, with an industrial grade and mature kernel to build on, and one that has a large user base already in the enterprise and automotive systems. Seems to me they had a "grand plan" and just failed to execute it in a timely manner and complete fashion.

    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    Let's face it, management didn't have a clue, I don't know what they based their "grand plan" and I don't know how they were gonna implement it with all the job cuts.

    To rebuild BBOS they already had the staff, for BB10 they had to fire and hire new staff.

    Then they got the Tribe "cascades" that made some huge promises in UI and even bigger disappointments.

    Would've been easier to start BB10 as a completely new and separate business.
    01-09-14 01:36 AM
  25. southlander's Avatar
    Let's face it, management didn't have a clue, I don't know what they based their "grand plan" and I don't know how they were gonna implement it with all the job cuts.

    To rebuild BBOS they already had the staff, for BB10 they had to fire and hire new staff.

    Then they got the Tribe "cascades" that made some huge promises in UI and even bigger disappointments.

    Would've been easier to start BB10 as a completely new and separate business.
    Part of my point is perhaps to some degree it was a personnel issue. Perhaps the entrenched BBOS folks were throwing up roadblocks that made it difficult to totally re-engineer the innards of the BBOS. Perhaps that is partly why the memory leaks and other persistent BBOS issues could never be ironed out. Perhaps the upper management just said hey, we'll just start from scratch. Hand over the reins to someone else.

    Just speculation. Yeah. But folks have a point that BBOS was around long enough for all its issues to have been fixed. So then why were they not? Why did anyone ever need to pull a battery by the time BBOS 7 debuted? I had and still have a 9930 and a 9850. Could do a fresh wipe and install the OS and after several days notice it bog down noticeably. BlackBerry 10 doesn't do that.


    Z10STL100-4/10.2.1.1925
    01-09-14 02:06 AM
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