[Platinum_2]

The BlackBerry CAN come back if they really wanted to....."

Posted via CB10

The acquisition of numerous companies and the launch of new devices Priv) clearly shows they DON'T want to make a comeback. Right.....

Posted via my BlackBerry Priv

[ravencore]

Using Apple as a possible "comeback from the grave" example is not applicable to Blackberry. Apple even today is positioned to be the clear alternative to Windows. Unix on pcs never took off which gave Apple the breathing room to get back on its feet.

From my experience as an entrepreneur I think the real big picture is different then your thinking. All that stuff about the competition is irrelevant. Apple was dead. No one thought they had any alternative worth considering. The only thing that really mattered is Steve Jobs had a magic that he believed in himself and the company and could make the employees think and act different.

When I was young the Commodore 64 had almost completely conquered the home computing market and Amiga should be the only computer OS now, and yet it didn't stop Microsoft from rising and that was because Bill Gates had the same qualities i'm talking about whereas Amiga fumbled.
The fact that you've written BlackBerry off as not able to overcome competition is simply because your lacking the imagination needed to see BlackBerry as anything but dead just like people saw Apple in the 90's.

[ravencore]

Using Apple as a possible "comeback from the grave" example is not applicable to Blackberry. Apple even today is positioned to be the clear alternative to Windows. Unix on pcs never took off which gave Apple the breathing room to get back on its feet.

I think you overplaying the significance of competition instead of crediting the significance of an entrepreneur like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates that have the drive and ambition and imagination to create a new world in their own image.
Consider this:
For a substantial period (1983�1986), the C64 had between 30% and 40% share of the US market and two million units sold per year, outselling the IBM PC compatibles, Apple Inc. computers, and the Atari 8-bit family of computers.
Based on that, if it is just the strength of momentum and competition - we should all be running Amiga OS today.
Yet it didn't stop Microsoft from rising, and then Apple from rising well after Microsoft dominated, going from dead to suddenly alive after losing for years.

[ravencore]

The acquisition of numerous companies and the launch of new devices Priv) clearly shows they DON'T want to make a comeback. Right.....

Posted via my BlackBerry Priv

Well I wish them luck with the Priv- I really do, but I think it was a desperate move not a well thought out comeback move.

[Troy Tiscareno]

Also, historically, most BlackBerry phones were made in North America - Mexico for the most part, although I believe that the Leap and Classic are now made in China.

Historically, most BB phones sold in North America were made in either Mexico or China (and even a relative few from their small Canadian facility), but BB phones sold in Europe were usually manufactured in eastern Europe or China, and phones sold in most of the rest of the world were manufactured in China. At one time, BB had enough volume to make multiple manufacturing contractors economical. Today, they lack that volume and so they must pay more in shipping and import fees/tariffs.

[IEatBlackBerries]

First, Why exactly do any BB10 fans need to "accept" something just because you think it's the truth?
People have a right to think for themselves.

BlackBerry has provided no updates to the platform, there has been no leaks in recent times, the BETA program has been shut down (including the manager of it laid off) and BB10 employees have been laid off. They've also shut down app development tools and won't be updating them. Whatsapp has abandoned ship too and they were the biggest supporters of BB10.

If you cannot accept this evidence of BB10 going the way of webOS, you're delusional and only kidding yourself.

Second, the OS wasn't profitable because they BlackBerry did everything wrong not because it couldn't have been profitable.

So yeah I would rather BlackBerry fix their culture and then make the great product they are meant to... instead of just putting up a surrender flag and squandering resources in the wrong direction

.

Without popular apps and the backings of developers, you don't have a platform.

[IEatBlackBerries]

Yes sir.... but that doesn't explain why you are posting on a dead platform sir... that is just dang weird if you don't mind me saying so Mr. Sir. Please don't eat my phone sir. Thank you for enlightening me sir...

Posted via CB10

I'm posting via my BlackBerry Priv. Android is the only alive platform of BlackBerry and is the future.

[Couver81]

I'm posting via my BlackBerry Priv. Android is the only alive platform of BlackBerry and is the future.

I think that was the hope but its looking as bleak as BB10. They have been pretty silent about Priv sales which is telling IMO. I expected more enthusiasm from them in terms of promotion and attention. But they've sort of left the Prive to flounder. And they really didn't do any Android related stuff at WMC. I think the handset division as a whole is in danger. The Priv likely is in as much trouble as BB10.

[DenverRalphy]

I think that was the hope but its looking as bleak as BB10. They have been pretty silent about Priv sales which is telling IMO. I expected more enthusiasm from them in terms of promotion and attention. But they've sort of left the Prive to flounder. And they really didn't do any Android related stuff at WMC. I think the handset division as a whole is in danger. The Priv likely is in as much trouble as BB10.

To be fair, the Priv sales statistics remain to be seen. MWC wasn't the place or time to mention it. Under previous CEOs, there were numerous statements like "they're flying off the shelves", "sales beyond expectations", "leapfrogging the competition", etc.. All of which turned out to be empty statements. So releasing positive statements would probably fall on deaf ears until the conference call where exact numbers are detailed.

I would venture to guess that being mum on the sales is more of a "let's release them at the quarterly statement when it actually means something" versus a "let's be mum on the subject because it's stinking at the moment".

I'm not saying that the sales have been good or bad. Just that the silence this time around has a rather reasonable explanation behind it other than doom/gloom, and for a first time doesn't need to be read into too much.

[nevertoofar]

It is time to accept BlackBerry 10 is done, the game is over. I don't care if BlackBerry keeps doing android phones. In case I would want to turn into android I wouldn't buy the priv or other overpriced device released by BlackBerry. The great about android is that you can get devices with good specs at a very competitive prices.

Posted via CB10

[Jerry A]

I agreed with everything you said until that point .
The CEOs job is to make the company make a dent in the universe, and deliver a product that the customers didn't even know they wanted, while being profitable.
And if Chen can't do it he should get out of the drivers seat.

The shareholders would disagree with you.

[ravencore]

The shareholders would disagree with you.

Shareholders are like customers.. they don't know what they should agree with until you show them.
In the case of Steve Jobs@Apple it happened to be a pile of cash in addition to changing the world. In the case of Blackberry it is currently going to be neither.
I don't think you'll find many companies with great ceos that are willing to settle for such low standards as your representing.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

[ravencore]

It is time to accept BlackBerry 10 is done, the game is over. I don't care if BlackBerry keeps doing android phones. In case I would want to turn into android I wouldn't buy the priv or other overpriced device released by BlackBerry. The great about android is that you can get devices with good specs at a very competitive prices.

Posted via CB10

You can accept whatever you want but I like to think for myself .

[ravencore]

I think that was the hope but its looking as bleak as BB10. They have been pretty silent about Priv sales which is telling IMO. I expected more enthusiasm from them in terms of promotion and attention. But they've sort of left the Prive to flounder. And they really didn't do any Android related stuff at WMC. I think the handset division as a whole is in danger. The Priv likely is in as much trouble as BB10.

The CEO did worse then let it flounder.. he flat out said he might kill all new hardware within 1 year.
Which means, other then BlackBerry faithful who not turned off by android.. very few sane new comers will want to adopt a new $800 device when the company has openly indicated they plan to not stand behind it.

It was a really bad move for the CEO - I would say he has pretty bad judgment doing that with a hot product launch. That was something he should have kept to himself. If you don't have confidence in your products you can't expect a customer to.

Unless BlackBerry changes their culture, the priv was dead on arrival and is just as dead as BB10 then . (Which I don't think BB10 is dead personally but if that is your stance then so is the priv).

[Jerry A]

Shareholders are like customers.. they don't know what they should agree with until you show them.
In the case of Steve Jobs@Apple it happened to be a pile of cash in addition to changing the world. In the case of Blackberry it is currently going to be neither.
I don't think you'll find many companies with great ceos that are willing to settle for such low standards as your representing.

But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that.

Put up a few million of your own dollars and tell me if your tune would change.

Major investors and stockholders aren't idiots as you imply. They know when to cut their losses and when a pivot with some hard choices.

[ravencore]

Major investors and stockholders aren't idiots as you imply. .

And what happened when Steve jobs returned to Apple proves just the opposite. MBA pencil pushers don't know how to change the world (nor make a profit) and neither do financial investors.

There is a reason that when Steve Jobs returned he completely ousted the whole board - because they did not have a clue and only got in the way.
But I don't think we're going to see eye to eye on that so we should probably stop trying. Cheers.

[ravencore]

BlackBerry has provided no updates to the platform, there has been no leaks in recent times, the BETA program has been shut down (including the manager of it laid off) and BB10 employees have been laid off. They've also shut down app development tools and won't be updating them. Whatsapp has abandoned ship too and they were the biggest supporters of BB10.

If you cannot accept this evidence of BB10 going the way of webOS, you're delusional and only kidding yourself.

.

First, I personally have the apps I want so it's fairly irrelevant to me how dead it is.. My needs are meet and I could happily keep using bb10 for years regardless.
I'm not debating what BlackBerry is currently doing.. i'm saying they are doing it all wrong and are acting out of desperation instead of thinking.
If they want to turn it around they have to go back to BB10 or something better.. not android which offers nothing to the world that Pantech is probably currently offering better (and on the verge of bankruptcy as well).

[Jerry A]

You keep tossing these Steve Jobs references out, but you ignore the actions he took to turn around Apple. It wasn't all magic, design and advertising. Quite a bit of it was cutthroat and angered many old-school Mac loyalists. Let's review:

• Upon Job's return, he immediately killed the MacOS licensing program. Many of the faithful were irrate because it meant they could no longer purchase more powerful clones at cheaper prices.
• He killed Copland. Then again, after 6 years without a viable overhaul, this was probably for the best. Think of this as finally killing BBOS.
• Many hard-core fans viewed the purchase of NeXT as the wrong move. They were crossing their fingers that Apple would instead purchase BeOS. That would allow BeOS to become MacOS 8+ and maintain a more "Classic MacOS" experience.
• Apple limped along with new hardware while they finalized the release of OSX. It didn't take the world by storm. Heck, it didn't even take a lot of the old-time developers by storm (anyone remember just how SLOOOWWW Kodiak and Cheetah were?). But it was modern, standards compliant, had potential and could leverage adjacent OS (ie other UNIX-like OSes) development.

And all that was good in that it stabilized Apple and helped return them to 8-10% market share (depends on who's counting) they enjoyed in the PC world.

So let's recap:

1. Kill the old OS and product lines, angering many longtime loyalists
2. Build upon better, existing technologies

That could just as well describe Chen's tough calls on moving towards Android.

But let's not forget that Apple's real success didn't come from the successful turnaround of their desktop/laptop business (Apple is still at 8-10% market share).

They entered adjacent markets (iPods & iTunes Music Store) early. Then they transformed a market to in which they weren't even a player (smartphones). Apple is the company they are today not because they kept on cranking out the same old, same old, but because they expanded and looked beyond where they were.

Funny enough, you could say the same about Chen's current strategy in regards to jumping on IoT early and focusing on their other products (MDM/EMM).

Apple because 3x the company they were by looking beyond PowerMacs and PowerBooks. Who's to say that Chen's approach won't lead to the same results?

Oh yeah, people who only want BB10 phones.

[ravencore]

Apple is the company they are today not because they kept on cranking out the same old, same old, but because they expanded and looked beyond where they were.

Funny enough, you could say the same about Chen's current strategy in regards to jumping on IoT early and focusing on their other products (MDM/EMM).

I agree with you that the Apple turnaround was breaking with many old things including upsetting some customers and I would be willing to consider something new other then BB10 but I don't think you can compare that to adopting Android and what BlackBerry is currently doing.
Android phones are a dim a dozen and effectively kills anything unique about BlackBerry. Jobs would have never allowed Apple to enter some generic product space.
Steve jobs didn't abandon revolutionary Next but in fact turned it into the next best thing not throwing away millions in previous development and giving up a valuable niche.. and yes BlackBerry should expand to beyond phones but Steve Jobs would have also never surrendered the consumer space as BlackBerry has done since he understood how innovation starts there and feeds enterprise/and or education/ and or IT markets as well. Whereas without it the enterprise days are numbered as well.

So I get your perspective I just don't think it's the same.
If Steve Jobs took over BlackBerry it would be a success, or Bill Gates for that matter.
They just don't have a leader of enough caliber, yet at least.

[Jerry A]

I agree with you that the Apple turnaround was breaking with many old things including upsetting some customers and I would be willing to consider something new other then BB10 but I don't think you can compare that to adopting Android and what BlackBerry is currently doing.
Android phones are a dim a dozen and effectively kills anything unique about BlackBerry. Jobs would have never allowed Apple to enter some generic product space.
Steve jobs didn't abandon revolutionary Next but in fact turned it into the next best thing not throwing away millions in previous development and giving up a valuable niche.. and yes BlackBerry should expand to beyond phones but Steve Jobs would have also never surrendered the consumer space as BlackBerry has done since he understood how innovation starts there and feeds enterprise/and or education/ and or IT markets as well. Whereas without it the enterprise days are numbered as well.

So I get your perspective I just don't think it's the same.
If Steve Jobs took over BlackBerry it would be a success, or Bill Gates for that matter.
They just don't have a leader of enough caliber, yet at least.

You're discounting the fact that in this current market there are only 3 viable places to get apps.

It's a totally different scenario than the PC industry was 20 years ago.

Except for the fact that there were 2 dominant players. By the mid-90s all others had been extinguished as major software developers stopped making software for the smaller platforms.

At this point, it's time to start getting ready for "the next big thing" - whatever that may be.

[ravencore]

You're discounting the fact that in this current market there are only 3 viable places to get apps.

It's a totally different scenario than the PC industry was 20 years ago.

Except for the fact that there were 2 dominant players. By the mid-90s all others had been extinguished as major software developers stopped making software for the smaller platforms.

At this point, it's time to start getting ready for "the next big thing" - whatever that may be.

No, I'm not.
Did you read my post regarding commodore above?
Viability and limitations based on competition doesn't matter when you think outside a box.
And your right the next best thing is what is needed. Android isn't the next big thing and I would rather BlackBerry be it but they can only be that by being leaders, not followers. And making an Android device is being a desperate follower in an overcrowded space, not a leader creating new revolutionary niches, which is what is required.

Technology changes but entrepreneurial thinking really doesn't. It's the same battle fought on new fields. You could go back to other IT companies such as Sun Microsystems and you would see they did the same things right when they grew and took over the industry and they did the same kinds of things badly that blackberry is doing now when dying. Same with other companies like Ford Motor, which was horribly out gunned more then once with other companies like GM but managed to rise again thanks to innovation. You innovate or you die.. there is no playing it safe. If your not making your mark your not doing anything but dying.

[Superfly_FR]

And what happened when Steve jobs returned to Apple ....

You realize that's a 1 over several millions situation, right ?
And TBH, even with his visionary + marketing talents granted, this wouldn't have happened without the luck factor.

You can't reasonably set expectations or design a business model based on that experience alone.
That's somehow similar to "[put your word here] built the world in 7 days so we should be able to eradicate world hunger in a snap".

As an entrepreneur myself, I grant you the enthusiasm but ... "disruptive" is not enough when your enterprise has the size of BlackBerry and must comply with public financial market rules.

[kvndoom]

Attachment 393001

One Plus, 2 years 3 dirt cheap phones. (one plus one, one plus 2, one plus x)

Still up in revenue ($300) and profit.

So if one plus can produce a very good cheap sub $400 smartphone....its is pretty easy for BlackBerry to produce a $500-$550 smartphone (considering higher cost of employees in north america).

Posted via CB10

You're conveniently forgetting the fact that One Plus doesn't have to build, update, and maintain its own OS. Nope, its OS is FREE from Google. BlackBerry had to put up billions (with a "b") upfront to create the OS on its phones. One Plus had to cough up nothing. BlackBerry is never going to recoup the money it lost with BB10.

thinking back, I feel that the Z3 and Leap should have been Android. Then they could have eased into Android more smoothly, on the low-price side.

BlackBerry Classic non-camera, Cricket Wireless

[Blacklatino]

I hear you but I think you should look beyond just RIM history to see the full truth. There is no denying BlackBerry is currently a dying company - there is also no denying getting a company out of dying mode and back to growth is a huge feat.
But, it can (and should) be done.
I think Apple is probably the best case study. When for example the Macintosh was being developed, almost 90% of the company had become dead-weight.
Only the mac devision was doing anything innovative. And apple continued to die throughout he 90s because they didn't kill of the dead-weight and didn't get behind the innovators. It wasn't until they allowed Steve Jobs to come back and restore the innovative spirit that things turned around.

BlackBerry would be better to sell out the remaining priv and bb10 inventory, lay off 90% of the dead-weight to take the financial stress off the company and give them needed time and breathing space.. create a new innovative core team (like the mac devision) that understands the big picture and adopts a new corporate culture and only then launch a new amazing product that they throw everything financially behind.

This is an endless look at variations of what could be, should have been done and/or what can be done now to get BlackBerry back on course. Also, my focus is not simply on BlackBerries' downfall. Just letting others know that a lot of members have been here thru the whole ordeal with the reasons why posted over, and over..... with many of us having left "other" platforms that are no longer available. So, no reason to re-explain what has been posted on numerous occasions on this forum. While I agree with BlackBerry not giving up and try using a valid course of action, again......it falls on deaf ears. IMO, Chen is going to do exactly what is expected from those that placed him in that position- no more and no less. Over the last few years, members have posted what they think could be a winning "potential" solution- aside from more advertising. Example: Thors and Chen were quoted as saying that they were working really hard to repair relationships with carriers in North America because it's an important market. There are still endless accounts from members- including myself where some areas there are no BlackBerry display models(or some not even charged even if displayed for viewing), being pushed toward non-BlackBerry models, or simply having to explain why you want a BlackBerry and/or why it's not dead. All this as opposed to simply showing a potential customer the features, then selling you one......if there is one available in-stock. Along with the continual lack of marketing, not much has changed. Whatever the (any number of) reasons, what BlackBerry could and/or should do as opposed to what they are continuing to do/not do, speaks volume. Their actions are still not backing up the words. IMHO.

[Jerry A]

No, I'm not.
Did you read my post regarding commodore above?
Viability and limitations based on competition doesn't matter when you think outside a box.
And your right the next best thing is what is needed. Android isn't the next big thing and I would rather BlackBerry be it but they can only be that by being leaders, not followers. And making an Android device is being a desperate follower in an overcrowded space, not a leader creating new revolutionary niches, which is what is required.

Technology changes but entrepreneurial thinking really doesn't. It's the same battle fought on new fields. You could go back to other IT companies such as Sun Microsystems and you would see they did the same things right when they grew and took over the industry and they did the same kinds of things badly that blackberry is doing now when dying. Same with other companies like Ford Motor, which was horribly out gunned more then once with other companies like GM but managed to rise again thanks to innovation. You innovate or you die.. there is no playing it safe. If your not making your mark your not doing anything but dying.

Thinking "outside the box" isn't fairy dust and unicorns for overcoming market forces.

If that were the case, NeXT would be the OS and workstation of choice. Instead it was slowly sliding towards irrelevance as Sun and Silicon Graphics were dominating said market. Steve Jobs, the visionary, was not enough to make the company (NeXT) super successful.

So, he took two companies, a bathtub designer, and a desire to change things while burning his sacred cows to the ground (already covered some of the Apple stuff in a previous post - didn't mention the Newton, NeXTcube or NeXTstation) and transformed them into something new. All while being willing to NOT LISTEN to his "loyal customers."

If we want to draw parallels, look at MacOS 8 & 9. Life-support OSes that were released to keep the Apple name out there while they worked on OSX. The same could be said of BlackBerry going the Android route.

Remember, Jobs was there to save Apple, the company; not save the classic MacOS market or NeXT workstation market (in fact, he didn't save them, he got out of them).

New and revolutionary for Chen may very well mean taking a page out of Jobs's playbook (no pun intended) and walking away from their old market (smartphones).