[Marc Magliari]

Hoping the business relationship between CB and TCL could tell us if the "learning experience" TCL had with BlackBerry could lead them to another PKB phone.

Since they know how to build keyboarded phones, use Android for an OS and own the Palm brand, was their experience so bad that a TCL or Palm-branded phone is out of the question?

Guessing the answer...

[conite]

Well, their current strategy is certainly with slabs. TCL 10L, 10 Pro, and 10 5G. Not to mention a bunch of Alcatel entry-level devices.

I think the market has spoken with regards to pkb phones.

[idssteve]

The market TCL targeted has certainly spoken. It's the same "fictitious" market BB mistakenly flew themselves into the ground chasing. TCL somehow convinced themselves that BlackBerry still had a clue about the market they thought they were chasing. Impressive sales job, John. Lol. When ya do the same thing, expecting a different result... Lol.

BB et al lost ALL concept of the loyal legacy "market" that had arguably generated every $ blown on every misguided attempt since 2012. RIM/BBRY had, as commanded strategy, forgotten nearly EVERYthing they'd learned before Mike sequestered Dan's crew from RIM's vast body of experience. What previous experience did Dan's crew command in smartphones? If any of that crew had ever even held a Bold or Curve, it certainly didn't show in the final product. Imo.

TCL's trust in BB's PKB "experience" proved to be more "blind following blind", by that point... Imo. Designers who don't understand why a market might want the product they're designing are doomed to miss the target. No matter how "bright" they are. Dan's certainly a "bright" guy. (Don't get me started on his role at Gateway/Amiga... TOO reminiscent of RIM's fate, btw). Few would argue that Grumman wasn't a capable aircraft, and even spacecraft, designer. Busses weren't initially their thing, infamously. Any more than PKB smartphones was Dan's thing. Or even RIM's thing, by the time of BB10. Imo.

Yes, expanding market share is a commendable motive. Abandoning 100% of your existing market, 2012, is a risky path to "expansion". At best. At worst? Here we are. Lol.

Every product since 2012 has offered "different" feature sets. Suitable for targeting "different" niches of a "main" market. Assuming their own "main" market had been served. Their own "main" market had been coldly abandoned and betrayed, 2013. NO product offered since has improved on the exquisite feature set enjoyed by 9900, for well worn example.

As late as 2015, something like 20M legacy users were still stubbornly clinging to their BBOS handsets. All sorts of "excuses" float around for "why". None ever really addressed the elephant in the room... The abject failure of Q10, Passport or Classic to attract meaningful migration of LOYAL legacy users? Loyal and satisfied users simply not interested in sacrificing the feature set enjoyed by the legacy handset in their hand in exchange for a "different" feature set that those users had little interest in?

Dropping a Corvette engine into an Impala and sticking Corvette name plates on it might not enjoy much success with "legacy" Corvette enthusiasts. Lol. Might, and did, find successful market niche in itself still labeled Impala, but... The resulting feature set just isn't what Corvette enthusiasts value. Lol.

At this point, so many slab phreeks have influenced so much of "current" PKB design, that PKB reputation for market failure might prove unsalvageable. BUT, if TCL, or ANY producer expects to find market success in PKB, I'd predict that they'd find some chance of success by starting with the LAST arguably successful PKB design... Imo, fwiw.

That said, I'd be shocked if even single digit market share could be achieved. Low volumes necessitate high margins. The design must, then, target "high margin" customers. (Much the way 9900 did?) Finding rational M/V curve intersects will prove challenging. Some sort of entry barrier breakthrough seems essential to that. Imo. Fwiw.

[conite]

Prem and the BlackBerry BoD decided to turf devices back in the summer of 2013. Chen was specifically hired to accomplish that, but he had to burn through a few years of supplier commitments before sweeping up the remaining refuse.

[idssteve]

Chen had nothing to do with it. Prem and the BoD already decided to ditch devices and pivot to enterprise end-point security - and subsequently hired Chen to pull it off.

Chen most certainly had more than something to do with selling BB's supposed "expertise" to TCL. Who else?

[conite]

Chen most certainly had more than something to do with selling BB's supposed "expertise" to TCL. Who else?

I misunderstood your post, so I rewrote my response, but you were too quick on the trigger. Lol.

I'm not sure Chen did a whole lot to sell it. TCL wanted in to the NA enterprise market, and thought this might be a good way.

[idssteve]

I misunderstood your post, so I rewrote my response, but you were too quick on the trigger. Lol.

I'm not sure Chen did a whole lot to sell it. TCL wanted in to the NA enterprise market, and thought this might be a good way.

I admire Chen for "selling" , even passively, the concept to TCL. Lol. Problem, imo, is that TCL simply didn't understand BB's legacy PKB market potential any better than post 2012 BlackBerry et al has. Including Chen. Imo. Fwiw lol

[conite]

I admire Chen for "selling" , even passively, the concept to TCL. Lol. Problem, imo, is that TCL simply didn't understand BB's legacy PKB market potential any better than post 2012 BlackBerry et al has. Including Chen. Imo. Fwiw lol

Chen/BlackBerry didn't care about BB10 post-summer 2013. They just wanted to burn through their pre-order of 5 million SoCs. He wasn't going to bother re-inventing things at that point.

[idssteve]

Chen/BlackBerry didn't care about BB10 post-summer 2013. They just wanted to burn through their pre-order of 5 million SoCs. He wasn't going to bother re-inventing things at that point.

Well, maybe he inherited the designs but PassPort & Classic intro'd under his watch. A "reinvention" in themselves. Too many of us legacy loyalists viewed oversized Classic as an insult. Imo.

Why would ANYone, especially BB, think legacy loyalists would eagerly trade "up" for a product less capable of performance those loyalists value? After all of these years, my WPM performance on oversized Classic is only 85% of 9900. And, ultimately, TCL doubled down on oversized misdirection till my K1 WPM is only 35% of 9900. Even only 90% of my D60 slab WPM. Why PKB if not for typing performance?

Like I mentioned before, dropping a Vette engine into an Impala will NOT, by itself, turn that Impala into a Vette... Don't expect Vette enthusiasts to flock to that Impala. Totally different feature set. Fortunately, even Chevy sorta still understands their own markets. BB, likely from lack of interest since summer 2013, has demonstrated lack of success generating understanding of their own markets... Or even WHAT market they THINK they WANT to target. TCL simply followed BB's lead... Into the ground. Imo. Fwiw.

Whether a proven success like 9900 patterned PKB might enjoy something resembling some sort of success is mostly irrelevant, ATP. Pretty much preordained that an OS would be Android. Fitting android into a 9900 feature set (aka size, etc) itself would likely prove a prohibitive challenge. Imo. Fwiw.

[conite]

Well, maybe he inherited the designs but PassPort & Classic intro'd under his watch. A "reinvention" in themselves. Too many of us legacy loyalists viewed oversized Classic as an insult. Imo.

Why would ANYone, especially BB, think legacy loyalists would eagerly trade "up" for a product less capable of performance those loyalists value? After all of these years, my WPM performance on oversized Classic is only 85% of 9900. And, ultimately, TCL doubled down on oversized misdirection till my K1 WPM is only 35% of 9900. Even only 90% of my D60 slab WPM. Why PKB if not for typing performance?

Like I mentioned before, dropping a Vette engine into an Impala will NOT, by itself, turn that Impala into a Vette... Don't expect Vette enthusiasts to flock to that Impala. Totally different feature set. Fortunately, even Chevy sorta still understands their own markets. BB, likely from lack of interest since summer 2013, has demonstrated lack of success generating understanding of their own markets... Or even WHAT market they THINK they WANT to target. TCL simply followed BB's lead... Into the ground. Imo. Fwiw.

Whether a proven success like 9900 patterned PKB might enjoy something resembling some sort of success is mostly irrelevant, ATP. Pretty much preordained that an OS would be Android. Fitting android into a 9900 feature set (aka size, etc) itself would likely prove a prohibitive challenge. Imo. Fwiw.

Classic/Leap used the same old S4 SoC as the rest, and finally finished off the pile.

The 801 in the Passport was ordered prior to Chen's arrival too.

The last 3 years of BBOS started the sharp sales drop into the abyss. Replicating its features would have been just as bad, or worse.

The mythical customers you speak of are few and far between. People came to BBOS because that was the only game in town. As the other platforms came along and delivered what people actually wanted, they left. It's really no more complicated than that. That and the irrelevance of BIS post-2009.

[Chuck Finley69]

Well, maybe he inherited the designs but PassPort & Classic intro'd under his watch. A "reinvention" in themselves. Too many of us legacy loyalists viewed oversized Classic as an insult. Imo.

Why would ANYone, especially BB, think legacy loyalists would eagerly trade "up" for a product less capable of performance those loyalists value? After all of these years, my WPM performance on oversized Classic is only 85% of 9900. And, ultimately, TCL doubled down on oversized misdirection till my K1 WPM is only 35% of 9900. Even only 90% of my D60 slab WPM. Why PKB if not for typing performance?

Like I mentioned before, dropping a Vette engine into an Impala will NOT, by itself, turn that Impala into a Vette... Don't expect Vette enthusiasts to flock to that Impala. Totally different feature set. Fortunately, even Chevy sorta still understands their own markets. BB, likely from lack of interest since summer 2013, has demonstrated lack of success generating understanding of their own markets... Or even WHAT market they THINK they WANT to target. TCL simply followed BB's lead... Into the ground. Imo. Fwiw.

Whether a proven success like 9900 patterned PKB might enjoy something resembling some sort of success is mostly irrelevant, ATP. Pretty much preordained that an OS would be Android. Fitting android into a 9900 feature set (aka size, etc) itself would likely prove a prohibitive challenge. Imo. Fwiw.

The reality is that BBOS was supported hardware and software until 2016 and software until 2019 or so. The demand has dried up

[idssteve]

The reality is that BBOS was supported hardware and software until 2016 and software until 2019 or so. The demand has dried up

Funny I missed the new products in 2016... Was it a true upgrade for Bold? Lol. Reality is BBOS was pronounced eol in 2011 and no legitimate successor to 9900 has been offered since. Demand has certainly dried up for experimental reinvention at hugeness. Likely damaging ANY PKB market reputation irreparably. A shame. But no worries... It WON'T happen. Rest in peace...

[Chuck Finley69]

Funny I missed the new products in 2016... Was it a true upgrade for Bold? Lol. Reality is BBOS was pronounced eol in 2011 and no legitimate successor to 9900 has been offered since. Demand has certainly dried up for experimental reinvention at hugeness. Likely damaging ANY PKB market reputation irreparably. A shame. But no worries... It WON'T happen. Rest in peace...

What need was there for a successor? The 9900 is doing the same thing in 2020 that it was doing in 2012 or so. If development could have paid for itself then it would’ve happened. The amount of corporate enterprise climate that needed or wanted BBOS to continue is minimal. By 2014, the largest segment, financial services, didn’t need or want BBOS anymore.

[idssteve]

What need was there for a successor? The 9900 is doing the same thing in 2020 that it was doing in 2012 or so. If development could have paid for itself then it would’ve happened. The amount of corporate enterprise climate that needed or wanted BBOS to continue is minimal. By 2014, the largest segment, financial services, didn’t need or want BBOS anymore.

Well... What "need" is there for ANY phone? I'm still proficient in morse and semaphore... Lol.

OS, aside, the bigger question still gets back to why PKB, if typing experience ultimately proves less desirable than previous or competing technologies. If TCL, or anyone, attempts another experiment in huge that doesn't truly improve PKB user experience over VKB, pretty safe bet it'll suffer the same fate as every PKB experiment since 2012.

Just looking at the numbers, the larger the PKB handset, since 2012, the lower the sales... Q-PP-Classic-Priv-K... Each larger than previous. Each slower WPM in my hand than previous. Each less "successful" than previous. Simple numbers, if nothing else. Explained by good reasons once the dynamics of PKB typing are understood. Few slab users understand that, tho. Imo. Especially design teams. Some PKB users might never push things hard enough to notice? When was the last time typing performance was truly compared in any quantifiable way?

I must beg to differ that 9900 is doing the same thing in 2020 it was in 2012... Maybe everything but DropBox, Onedrive, FB, WA, Beweather, Wells Fargo, McMaster-Carr, etc, etc... Including native browser? Lol. Dysfunctional in so many ways in 2020 that it was NOT, in 2012. Lol.

Yet, I started this post on "fully functional" LE and grew frustrated at how slow it was going about second paragraph... finishing this post on "dysfunctional" 9900... Lol. Nothing newer challenges its typing proficiency. Not that "anyone" cares. Lol. If they were ever even aware of possible advantages. They certainly won't become aware here at CB. Lol.

No worries, PKB is as good as dead. CB consensus will likely continue blaming its market failure on the PKB concept itself. Till a "modern" version of 9900 config has been attempted, I'll continue to blame misguided implementation. Not likely to happen THIS lifetime. Imo. Fwiw.

[Chuck Finley69]

Well... What "need" is there for ANY phone? I'm still proficient in morse and semaphore... Lol.

OS, aside, the bigger question still gets back to why PKB, if typing experience ultimately proves less desirable than previous or competing technologies. If TCL, or anyone, attempts another experiment in huge that doesn't truly improve PKB user experience over VKB, pretty safe bet it'll suffer the same fate as every PKB experiment since 2012.

Just looking at the numbers, the larger the PKB handset, since 2012, the lower the sales... Q-PP-Classic-Priv-K... Each larger than previous. Each slower WPM in my hand than previous. Each less "successful" than previous. Simple numbers, if nothing else. Explained by good reasons once the dynamics of PKB typing are understood. Few slab users understand that, tho. Imo. Especially design teams. Some PKB users might never push things hard enough to notice? When was the last time typing performance was truly compared in any quantifiable way?

I must beg to differ that 9900 is doing the same thing in 2020 it was in 2012... Maybe everything but DropBox, Onedrive, FB, WA, Beweather, Wells Fargo, McMaster-Carr, etc, etc... Including native browser? Lol. Dysfunctional in so many ways in 2020 that it was NOT, in 2012. Lol.

Yet, I started this post on "fully functional" LE and grew frustrated at how slow it was going about second paragraph... finishing this post on "dysfunctional" 9900... Lol. Nothing newer challenges its typing proficiency. Not that "anyone" cares. Lol. If they were ever even aware of possible advantages. They certainly won't become aware here at CB. Lol.

No worries, PKB is as good as dead. CB consensus will likely continue blaming its market failure on the PKB concept itself. Till a "modern" version of 9900 config has been attempted, I'll continue to blame misguided implementation. Not likely to happen THIS lifetime. Imo. Fwiw.

I believe the problem is simply the vast majority of people use a single device. You have the F350 Turbodiesel and 993 Turbo but the masses have a single Chevrolet, smaller CUV or SUV that does nothing exceptionally well but does just what they need to get by with. It’s not the most proficient or efficient but it does the most things, just good enough.

[idssteve]

I believe the problem is simply the vast majority of people use a single device. You have the F350 Turbodiesel and 993 Turbo but the masses have a single Chevrolet, smaller CUV or SUV that does nothing exceptionally well but does just what they need to get by with. It’s not the most proficient or efficient but it does the most things, just good enough.

Yes, completely agree. Few ppl have need or desire of Kenworth products. Kenworth will never challenge Corolla sales #s. Toyota would likely never be satisfied with Kenworth sales #s. There's still a space for both products.

There IS a space for well implemented PKB. Imo. Even if it's only a few hundred. Totally a matter of finding where V/M curve intersects. An intersect that too likely becomes an axis intercept till some entry barrier breakthroughs shift the curve. A few months? Years?? Decades??? Never???? Lol. Never underestimate the power of creativity, tho... Lol.

[Chuck Finley69]

Yes, completely agree. Few ppl have need or desire of Kenworth products. Kenworth will never challenge Corolla sales #s. Toyota would likely never be satisfied with Kenworth sales #s. There's still a space for both products.

There IS a space for well implemented PKB. Imo. Even if it's only a few hundred. Totally a matter of finding where V/M curve intersects. An intersect that too likely becomes an axis intercept till some entry barrier breakthroughs shift the curve. A few months? Years?? Decades??? Never???? Lol. Never underestimate the power of creativity, tho... Lol.

Unihertz Titan shows a possible starting point but it’s +/- reference point initially

[idssteve]

Unihertz Titan shows a possible starting point but it’s +/- reference point initially

Yep, pretty rare that entry barriers remain constant indefinitely. Especially with a relatively young industry.

I'm hopeful PKB itself isn't completely hopeless. It offer's too much usefulness for some use cases to ignore indefinitely. Just a shame that the ultimate achievement in single thumb typing performance will likely not be reproducible soon, if ever.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Unihertz Titan shows a possible starting point but it’s +/- reference point initially

Yeah if they have the courage to do another... maybe it will be a smaller, more manageable design.

But as to the OP idea... I do think TCL experience with BlackBerry taught them something about the viability of PKB phones in 2020.

[bh7171]

Yeah if they have the courage to do another... maybe it will be a smaller, more manageable design.

But as to the OP idea... I do think TCL experience with BlackBerry taught them something about the viability of PKB phones in 2020.

Nothing besides Samsung or Apple is really viable here in the US and the carriers. Even if one buys a truly unlocked device unless it's one noted above the handset is less likely to be able to utilize some of the carriers functionalities.

The smartphone handset here in the US has turned into "Ford vs. Chevy" or something similar in the 80's USSR??

A few different sizes and low, mid and flagship is all one will soon have. Do you want the 4 cylinder, 6 or 8?

And Samsung is going to have to up their support game to stay in the mix here in US. I don't even think most care about their devices OS?

Most consumers want to know if their cell phone allows them to text, call, take good photos (duck lipped selfies), video for Tik Tok, stream and watch movies and content on 5-6 in screens and use any (mostly useless and infrequently used) app they want. And lastly can they afford the "monthly" (forget actual affordability) bill that Apple, Samsung or the carriers will happily amoritize.

[bh7171]

Yep, pretty rare that entry barriers remain constant indefinitely. Especially with a relatively young industry.

I'm hopeful PKB itself isn't completely hopeless. It offer's too much usefulness for some use cases to ignore indefinitely. Just a shame that the ultimate achievement in single thumb typing performance will likely not be reproducible soon, if ever.

The PKB is most definitely useful!! The issue is that so many use their mobile devices for so much more that communication. The average user still texts or messages but it's done in "color" or with photos, videos and stories through social media. As the physical size has increased many (most) now use them as a Swiss Army knife as is more clear through decreased tablet sales over the years.

My wife only uses her tablet to game and that's usually later in the evening on personal time when kids are down and we are not watching something on our 65 in 4k TV. Everything else is via a computer at work or via her phone.

[Chuck Finley69]

Nothing besides Samsung or Apple is really viable here in the US and the carriers. Even if one buys a truly unlocked device unless it's one noted above the handset is less likely to be able to utilize some of the carriers functionalities.

The smartphone handset here in the US has turned into "Ford vs. Chevy" or something similar in the 80's USSR??

A few different sizes and low, mid and flagship is all one will soon have. Do you want the 4 cylinder, 6 or 8?

And Samsung is going to have to up their support game to stay in the mix here in US. I don't even think most care about their devices OS?

Most consumers want to know if their cell phone allows them to text, call, take good photos (duck lipped selfies), video for Tik Tok, stream and watch movies and content on 5-6 in screens and use any (mostly useless and infrequently used) app they want. And lastly can they afford the "monthly" (forget actual affordability) bill that Apple, Samsung or the carriers will happily amoritize.

Maybe five years ago but 2-3 years ago saw wave of oldest millennial consumers becoming prosumers through carrier hardware especially on the Android side with Google increasing awareness of premium features and mid-tier comparisons.

My kids worry about specs you mentioned for their club sports action, some gaming friends activity.

Ironically, the kids are starting to attach some value to premium Android brands and favoring Google proprietary for some hardware. Everyone used to say gaming was the next frontier and we saw a resurgence of another round of XBOX/PS4 wars from other systems. I believe Microsoft and Sony will have some additional new influence with the congruence of traditional vs mobile in next two years. Microsoft adoption of Android/iOS compatibility through cross platforms of multiple hardware platforms. The IoT has evolved in other areas in a different ordered way than many expected.

Some people like Ring or Alexa but the next generation is evolving traditionally around some older conveniences as laptops or gaming systems can be multipurpose entertainment. A kind of unintended consequences that have been intended with some old school reinventing.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Maybe five years ago but 2-3 years ago saw wave of oldest millennial consumers becoming prosumers through carrier hardware especially on the Android side with Google increasing awareness of premium features and mid-tier comparisons.

My kids worry about specs you mentioned for their club sports action, some gaming friends activity.

Ironically, the kids are starting to attach some value to premium Android brands and favoring Google proprietary for some hardware. Everyone used to say gaming was the next frontier and we saw a resurgence of another round of XBOX/PS4 wars from other systems. I believe Microsoft and Sony will have some additional new influence with the congruence of traditional vs mobile in next two years. Microsoft adoption of Android/iOS compatibility through cross platforms of multiple hardware platforms. The IoT has evolved in other areas in a different ordered way than many expected.

Some people like Ring or Alexa but the next generation is evolving traditionally around some older conveniences as laptops or gaming systems can be multipurpose entertainment. A kind of unintended consequences that have been intended with some old school reinventing.

I've been waiting on a Surface phone... are you saying it will be an XBox phone instead?


Microsoft launched their Project xCloud (Preview) a while back... my understanding is most the "power" to run the games is in the Azure Cloud, you just need a really good connection with low latency and good bandwidth... and a reasonable up to date device. I suspect this is an area where 5G will come into play in a few years...

[Chuck Finley69]

I've been waiting on a Surface phone... are you saying it will be an XBox phone instead?


Microsoft launched their Project xCloud (Preview) a while back... my understanding is most the "power" to run the games is in the Azure Cloud, you just need a really good connection with low latency and good bandwidth... and a reasonable up to date device. I suspect this is an area where 5G will come into play in a few years...

All I know is that my kids and their friends are better educated regarding the cloud and security than I’ve had any involvement with.

[bh7171]

I've been waiting on a Surface phone... are you saying it will be an XBox phone instead?


Microsoft launched their Project xCloud (Preview) a while back... my understanding is most the "power" to run the games is in the Azure Cloud, you just need a really good connection with low latency and good bandwidth... and a reasonable up to date device. I suspect this is an area where 5G will come into play in a few years...

You will have a Microsoft Duo shortly. Closest you will get to a Surface Phone for now.