[lnichols]

The entire Mobile division encompasses a lot of things other than WinMo. During that period, it included things like Win embedded (which itself is a bunch of products), Win Automotive, and MapPoint. Significantly, portions of the losses during that period were due to grants of stock based compensation to certain employees including $95M in 2004. The idea that Windows Mobile (the smartphone operating system) is the cause of all the losses during 2003-2005 is of course, silly. By 2006, the division's revenues for the year was $377M. with about 147M from WinMo, and that year showed 37% growth in WinMo sales. The entire division was profitable that year, meaning significantly that the division was pulled up by WinMo which had the highest gross revenue growth.

In 2007, WinMo became part of the newly formed Entertainment and Devices division at MS and the division lost almost $1.9 Billion. Are you going to blame that loss on WinMo too? Or perhaps, just perhaps, that year, X-Box and Zune had something to do with losses at that division?

No the point is that Microsoft has spent much more than it has made in the mobile phone market, even back in it's supposed prime, and even the Xbox strategy hasn't panned out for them. Maybe it will at some point, but I'm not seeing it. I'm sure we will start hearing "just wait till WP9 comes out" like we heard with WP7, mango, tango, and now WP8. Luckily for WP fans MS has deep pockets and can keep slinging poo at the walls until something sticks.

[omniusovermind]

Re: Could BlackBerry 10 kill Windows Phone?
[I've read two articles so far saying the surface rt tablet and wp8 won't let you run one app on both devices with one single purchase. Is that correct? If so, they've already gimped themselves right from the starting gate when it comes to unified app ecosystems.]


I learned something right there, so apps have to be bought separately for the two devices from one manufacturer? Fail!!!

You missed my followup post. I clarified that I was referring to surface RT, which does use an ARM chip. I Still don't know the answer to my original question though.

Edit: f-ing tapatalk sucks at showing full quotes, some content such as the 2nd reply missing.

[Roo Zilla]

No the point is that Microsoft has spent much more than it has made in the mobile phone market, even back in it's supposed prime, and even the Xbox strategy hasn't panned out for them. Maybe it will at some point, but I'm not seeing it. I'm sure we will start hearing "just wait till WP9 comes out" like we heard with WP7, mango, tango, and now WP8. Luckily for WP fans MS has deep pockets and can keep slinging poo at the walls until something sticks.

MS spending on the mobile phone market until recently has been minimal. WinMo was developed out of WinCE, basically, development costs were very low. They never built phones, their entire model was based on licensing, which they sold at least 50 million of excluding Palm. Losses in their mobile division from 2003-2005 were not from WinMo, but from employee compensation, losses from their mapping tech, and R&D associated with Win embedded into various fields including development of a WinXPCE, which didn't work out very well.

As for the X-Box strategy..... in fiscal 2011, MS made $1.2 Billion from the Entertainment and Devices division. Fiscal 2012 saw profits of $360M, which reflect payments to Nokia of $250M, about $360M in increased R&D expense, and about $240M in Skype related marketing expenses. It seems the X-Box division is quite profitable now, and will be for the foreseeable future.

[omniusovermind]

Dangit, now I wish I could remember where I saw the article I just read yesterday that said their xbox entertainment division was their lowest source of income.

I did find a related article just now though

[Roo Zilla]

Dangit, now I wish I could remember where I saw the article I just read yesterday that said their xbox entertainment division was their lowest source of income.

I did find a related article just now though

The EDD is their 2nd lowest source of income. Their Online Services Division is still losing money. As for why EDD is losing money, direct from their 10Q:

"EDD operating income decreased, due mainly to higher cost of revenue and research and development expenses. Cost of revenue grew $151 million or 14%, largely due to payments made to Nokia related to joint strategic initiatives and due to the acquisition of Skype, offset in part by decreased sales of Xbox 360 consoles and lower video game royalties. Research and development expenses increased $140 million or 44%, primarily reflecting higher headcount-related expenses related to interactive entertainment and the acquisition of Skype. "

[lnichols]

MS spending on the mobile phone market until recently has been minimal. WinMo was developed out of WinCE, basically, development costs were very low. They never built phones, their entire model was based on licensing, which they sold at least 50 million of excluding Palm. Losses in their mobile division from 2003-2005 were not from WinMo, but from employee compensation, losses from their mapping tech, and R&D associated with Win embedded into various fields including development of a WinXPCE, which didn't work out very well.

As for the X-Box strategy..... in fiscal 2011, MS made $1.2 Billion from the Entertainment and Devices division. Fiscal 2012 saw profits of $360M, which reflect payments to Nokia of $250M, about $360M in increased R&D expense, and about $240M in Skype related marketing expenses. It seems the X-Box division is quite profitable now, and will be for the foreseeable future.

I was referring to the Xbox strategy they are mirroring with the WP rollout. Lose money to flood the market and get marketshare and eventually make money. Xbox is successful. They make more money off Android OEM royalties than they do off of Windows Phone.

[Dapper37]

You may think the iPhone 5 is ordinary but Apples smartphone market share was over 50% in the last quarter largely due to iPhone5 sales.

I have a very hard time believeing that??

[Dapper37]

RIM is a publicly traded company. MS could buy it at any time.

You might want to freshen up on Canadain securities law, any publicly traded Canadian company that is to be sold to a non Canadian company, That is the size of RIM has to pass a Net benifit to Canada test! if the transaction is not deamed to be a net benifit to Canada the Government has the power to kill the deal. They have done it in the past. Just ask BHP or Potash. (if the RIM board and Canadian population don't want it done it won't be, count on it!)
Before anyone claims thats a poor system let it be known that most countries operate this way. Have a look at CNOOC when they tried to buy Gulf oil in the USA! Sorry but you have to prove to the local countries government that the deal is a good one for it citizens!!
If you think RIM is going to be taken out in a "hostile" bid by MS you don't know what your talking about!! Thats most likely why it hasen't happend already! RIM expressed to the government that they are not interested in being taken over.
Only the RIM managment and board know for sure what they have been working on for the last 2+ years. Don't believe their going to let someone swipe it from them at the last minute.

[howarmat]

I have a very hard time believeing that??

they were 53.3% in the latest 3 month period in the US

[Dapper37]

they were 53.3% in the latest 3 month period in the US

Thanks, in the USA makes a difference! there is a whole other world out there some people need to understand.

[gjohnsto]

they were 53.3% in the latest 3 month period in the US

53% of sales right, not total market?
- either way, that's F'n ridiculous

[howarmat]

53% of sales right, not total market?
- either way, that's F'n ridiculous

its 53.3 for that period. Its all in the chart posted earlier

[Jake Storm]

its 53.3 for that period. Its all in the chart posted earlier

You still don't admit the distinction between sales and total market share.
The chart does say sales, so I assume Apple doesn't have anywhere near 53.3% of actual phone users.

[howarmat]

You still don't admit the distinction between sales and total market share.
The chart does say sales, so I assume Apple doesn't have anywhere near 53.3% of actual phone users.

right its sales for that 3 month period. i thought the chart made that pretty obvious since it states "smartphone sales" on it.

[Jake Storm]

right its sales for that 3 month period. i thought the chart made that pretty obvious since it states "smartphone sales" on it.

Man, it's hard to get a straight answer around here

[KermEd]

Lol!

In that case, In brief: m$ has limitless funds due to other venues so the answer is just no.

Sent from my BlackBerry 9360 using Tapatalk

[texazzpete]

Man, it's hard to get a straight answer around here

I could have sworn he just gave you a straight answer.

[kevinnugent]

Yes, but getting the straight answers you want is harder.

[RubberChicken76]

I think we've already established that Windows Mobile was a pretty successful smartphone OS in its heydays...just like BB OS. Not so?

I don't have an issue with that. I do have an issue with people assuming Microsoft can walk in and dominate because they're "Microsoft". It's as benign to me as under-estimating Microsoft.

[RubberChicken76]

I agree that RIM will get most of its conquest sales from iOS. Those users will love the consistent and speedy experience and if the Big name apps are in App World then customers that are sick of the limitations of apple hardware and tired of iOS will likely see BB 10 as fresh and exciting.

I definitely don't agree there! Apple has some of the most fiercely fanatical fans of any company on the planet. I see it in my own social network ... they come out fists clenched if someone says Apple isn't perfect in every way! They ignore every flaw or error.

Most companies wish they had Apple's retention.

So that begs the question: Why on earth would RIM try to spend energies on the most difficult nut to crack? Wouldn't it be easier to convert many of the 79 million BlackBerry OS customers who are already BlackBerry users despite everything that's happened? Wouldn't it be easier to go after Symbian Smartphone customers in international markets where RIM is strong and Symbian is dying? Wouldn't it be easier to get a slice of the (still burgeoning) first-time smartphone buyers?

****, it would probably be easier to get a slice of the Android market that's coming off of contract and doesn't know (or particularly care) that they have an Android phone? Like my cousin's husband who just got "an HTC" for Christmas.

To me, going after iOS first in an attempt to build a big base is a big waste of money.

[Bobert_123]

I definitely don't agree there! Apple has some of the most fiercely fanatical fans of any company on the planet. I see it in my own social network ... they come out fists clenched if someone says Apple isn't perfect in every way! They ignore every flaw or error.

Most companies wish they had Apple's retention.

So that begs the question: Why on earth would RIM try to spend energies on the most difficult nut to crack? Wouldn't it be easier to convert many of the 79 million BlackBerry OS customers who are already BlackBerry users despite everything that's happened? Wouldn't it be easier to go after Symbian Smartphone customers in international markets where RIM is strong and Symbian is dying? Wouldn't it be easier to get a slice of the (still burgeoning) first-time smartphone buyers?

****, it would probably be easier to get a slice of the Android market that's coming off of contract and doesn't know (or particularly care) that they have an Android phone? Like my cousin's husband who just got "an HTC" for Christmas.

To me, going after iOS first in an attempt to build a big base is a big waste of money.

I agree, RIM's first sales will be coming from the BB diehards, then android and WP, and if we're lucky well crack the nut that is apple

[darkehawke]

blackberry 10 can beat windows phone, but it wont kill it.
the only thing that might kill windows phone is android.
the reason i say this is because Microsoft can throw money at windows phone regardless of how it does. but google are taking on Microsoft over their biggest money maker Office. the main attraction of wp is office integration, but if google get a viable alternative to Office, and integrate it with android, it will not only cut a massive portion of income for Microsoft but will also provide a alternative for wp.
blackberry 10 can easily get the third position from windows phone however. it just cant kill it though. kind of like Batman and the joker :P

Sent from my BlackBerry 9810 using Tapatalk

[RubberChicken76]

Earlier in this thread, there was some question as to whether or not Nokia was actually selling huge numbers of Windows Phones or whether or not retailers got few in resulting in sellouts.

Today, Nokia is reporting

Nokia Boosted by Brisk Lumia Sales - WSJ.com

[derpOverflow]

Earlier in this thread, there was some question as to whether or not Nokia was actually selling huge numbers of Windows Phones or whether or not retailers got few in resulting in sellouts.

Today, Nokia is reporting

Nokia Boosted by Brisk Lumia Sales - WSJ.com

4.4 million is only 400k more than they sold in Q2 and its the launch/christmas quarter...not exactly impressive

[chrysaurora]

What Windows Phone?
Windows is going to gain some traction (thanks to Windows 8 desktop) but I doubt it's going to make 'fans' or command loyalty like iPhone does, like BlackBerry does. 2013 and 2014 belong to RIM. 2+ years is hard to predict in the world of technology which moves at break-neck speed. Lots can change in 2 years. But 2013 and 2014 are RIM's.