08-04-16 10:47 AM
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  1. TgeekB's Avatar
    I'd rather pay cash for a product than give away access to my data forever and without understanding future consequences and my data's future value.

    Information is everything today. We live in an information society but we have little control over our data (information), which is our intellectual property.

    Our data is the only way Google makes money. Google has lost money in every other business they have attempted, including smartphones.

    If they would charge for their services like every other normal company does, very few people would use them and android.

    What we have now is that most of the world population, who can't afford to pay for the real cost of Internet access and of all these apps, have become data slaves. They will pay for this later and the price is unknown at the moment.

    The relationship between Google and the rest of us is very asymmetrical.
    We have no say if we want to use their service.
    The option to pay the real price for Google search and android is not given to us.
    It's either you have to accept Google's terms or you are banished from the internet.
    I partially agree with you, but people do get something of value for using google services. Sure it's about marketing (Google does not sell your data but rather points merchandisers to you if you have shown to have an interest in their products). Consumer's then get access to what they want and competition keeps prices down.

    Just a different point of view to keep things interesting. Still a personal preference though.
    07-03-16 09:32 AM
  2. sorinv's Avatar
    I partially agree with you, but people do get something of value for using google services. Sure it's about marketing (Google does not sell your data but rather points merchandisers to you if you have shown to have an interest in their products). Consumer's then get access to what they want and competition keeps prices down.

    Just a different point of view to keep things interesting. Still a personal preference though.
    I agree. It would be perfect if Google offered you the choice between paying with your data or paying with cash...But they don't.
    I wonder why?
    Do you think that is because it favours them or because it favours the user?
    07-03-16 09:46 AM
  3. conite's Avatar
    I agree. It would be perfect if Google offered you the choice between paying with your data or paying with cash...But they don't.
    I wonder why?
    Do you think that is because it favours them or because it favours the user?
    Your data is worth something that can be calculated. Sure Google could charge you that amount instead, but it would be a dog's breakfast to manage.
    07-03-16 09:52 AM
  4. Invictus0's Avatar
    And that's what I wrote and what Google downloads predict. Check the number of downloads for Chrome.
    No, you wrote under 500k and Google downloads only predicts 100-500k downloads for Hub (which, as shown above, isn't a good indicator for total users).
    07-03-16 10:00 AM
  5. sorinv's Avatar
    And they are both estimates. The difference between 500k and 600k is only 18-20%, depending on the reference, and both numbers are pitiful for an android phone with all the apps in the world and all the free Google services that some here thought were what bb10 was missing to be successful.
    07-03-16 10:36 AM
  6. sorinv's Avatar
    Your data is worth something that can be calculated. Sure Google could charge you that amount instead, but it would be a dog's breakfast to manage.
    Really? When everything you do is tracked, it's ironic to claim that Google couldn't keep track of who wants to pay with cash and who wants to pay with data.
    How does Uber and airbnb manage?
    Even BlackBerry keeps track of who pays for BBM protected and BBM ad blocking.
    Don't you think Google is able to do that?
    07-03-16 10:39 AM
  7. conite's Avatar
    both numbers are pitiful for an android phone with all the apps in the world and all the free Google services that some here thought were what bb10 was missing to be successful.
    You're being a bit disingenuous.

    The reasons why BB10 did not gain developer traction and general customer support are very different from why the Priv wasn't a great success.

    BB10 had so decimated BlackBerry's image, that people were unwilling to pay the premium price that the Priv commanded.
    07-03-16 10:42 AM
  8. conite's Avatar
    Really? When everything you do is tracked, it's ironic to claim that Google couldn't keep track of who wants to pay with cash and who wants to pay with data.
    How does Uber and airbnb manage?
    Even BlackBerry keeps track of who pays for BBM protected and BBM ad blocking.
    Don't you think Google is able to do that?
    They would have to recode their browser, Google Play Services, and all of their apps to flag and deal with exceptions.

    Besides, no one is clamouring for it anyway.
    Coachbulldog likes this.
    07-03-16 10:44 AM
  9. sorinv's Avatar
    Yes. There were different reasons but price was a common reason for BB10 phones, too.

    People complained on Crackberry about the price of Z10 (I paid 750 CAD in February 2013 which was then worth over 650 USD) and about the price of the Passport.
    Z10, Z30, Passport were on par with the equivalent iphone of the day in terms of price. Besides, neither the passport nor Z30 were sold in Canadian or US carrier stores on launch, unlike the Priv.

    One reason why Priv did not sell was because people like me did not want to use android or saw no point in purchasing an android phone from BlackBerry. That was not an issue with BB10 phones.
    07-03-16 10:49 AM
  10. sorinv's Avatar
    They would have to recode their browser, Google Play Services, and all of their apps to flag and deal with exceptions.

    Besides, no one is clamouring for it anyway.
    Again, if BlackBerry could do it as part of their services and making money on services ;-)...it would be peanuts for Google..
    And there are lots of people clamouring, including countries and federations of countries like EU who are investigating google's practices.
    07-03-16 10:51 AM
  11. conite's Avatar
    Again, if BlackBerry could do it as part of their services and making money on services ;-)...it would be peanuts for Google..
    That's one single app - BBM. That is nothing compared to an entire suite of apps and services supporting hundreds of millions of people, on hundreds of devices, on several OS versions.

    I'm sure they could do it at great expense, but the vast majority of people seem to not mind the way it is now.
    Last edited by conite; 07-03-16 at 11:24 AM.
    07-03-16 10:57 AM
  12. conite's Avatar
    And there are lots of people clamouring, including countries and federations of countries like EU who are investigating google's practices.
    That is from an anti-trust / competition angle. I'm not aware of the EU looking into targeted ads.
    07-03-16 11:01 AM
  13. TgeekB's Avatar
    I agree. It would be perfect if Google offered you the choice between paying with your data or paying with cash...But they don't.
    I wonder why?
    Do you think that is because it favours them or because it favours the user?
    Could they do it? I'm sure they could. The only way I can answer your question though is it seems to be a very successful model. If the majority of people did not feel it was something they wanted or felt comfortable with, they would leave and it would fail.
    07-03-16 11:21 AM
  14. Sairos's Avatar
    The relationship between Google and the rest of us is very asymmetrical.
    We have no say if we want to use their service.
    The option to pay the real price for Google search and android is not given to us.
    It's either you have to accept Google's terms or you are banished from the internet.
    No you've a say in the matter, you can opt out of anything google, You will live in the dark ages.. But hey don't say you can't..

    You can accept them or reject them and use other services.. Don't forget about how much knowledge and help you get from using Google as a search engine.. Also how you've very cheap phones out there because of Android.. and companies' ability to use it without having to spend huge sums of money on developing their own OS, which will probably be low quality crap like the stuff we used to see in the past.. You would've been stuck with apple and their iPhone.
    07-03-16 12:07 PM
  15. kvndoom's Avatar
    I guess you missed the part where I emphasized that that particular example was my use scenario which was unique and applied to less than 0.1% of the population.
    But, sure, you are free to comment, just don't forget to actually add something or a different point of view to the conversation and to provide some arguments to support your view.
    I dunno. I work for a production company of over 15,000 people and hardly anyone has a laptop. Most company laptops are strictly used for VPN when people work at home. People not at their desks work from their phones.

    We've replaced all corporate issued Blackberry phones with managed Samsungs and the world didn't stop turning. In fact, the IT people say it has made us even more productive since we can use these newfangled "apps" now that couldn't be had before. Some folks (myself included) have kept their personal Blackberry phones, but I've yet to hear anyone wish they still had their company-issued Blackberry.
    cribble2k likes this.
    07-03-16 12:59 PM
  16. kvndoom's Avatar
    If you're worried about your data getting sold, you better sell your car and buy a bicycle. Every time I get a car, it's only a matter of months before I start getting phone calls and mail from "the warranty company."

    Damn, the used car I bought with CASH 2 years ago has started drawing attention as of last month. I'm still scratching my head on that one. I know home ownership is public domain, but I'm not sure about cars. I can only guess that the insurance company sells my data too.

    You can go off the grid and live out of a shed in the mountains if you want true "privacy," but you had better not own anything.
    07-03-16 01:07 PM
  17. jope28's Avatar
    If you're worried about your data getting sold, you better sell your car and buy a bicycle. Every time I get a car, it's only a matter of months before I start getting phone calls and mail from "the warranty company."

    Damn, the used car I bought with CASH 2 years ago has started drawing attention as of last month. I'm still scratching my head on that one. I know home ownership is public domain, but I'm not sure about cars. I can only guess that the insurance company sells my data too.

    You can go off the grid and live out of a shed in the mountains if you want true "privacy," but you had better not own anything.
    It's more about being informed and choosing to protect yourself from what you value most. It will vary from user to user, but there will be those who won't mind sharing what you might take offense to and that wouldn't share something that you might be ok with.

    There are instances where you can choose to go "off the grid" for a specific product that won't make you move to the woods lol.

    It's not a blanket all or nothing. Having That choice is key, and some might choose to avoid Google at all cost even it it is to go into the arms of someone that you might feel is worse than Google.

     Passport/SQW100-3 .2876 CB10 
    07-03-16 02:16 PM
  18. TgeekB's Avatar
    It's more about being informed and choosing to protect yourself from what you value most. It will vary from user to user, but there will be those who won't mind sharing what you might take offense to and that wouldn't share something that you might be ok with.

    There are instances where you can choose to go "off the grid" for a specific product that won't make you move to the woods lol.

    It's not a blanket all or nothing. Having That choice is key, and some might choose to avoid Google at all cost even it it is to go into the arms of someone that you might feel is worse than Google.

     Passport/SQW100-3 .2876 CB10 
    But I think people do have a choice, at least somewhat, with how you use your phone. I might only use calendar, email, and text while you're on every social media app. I do agree that more choice is good, but individuals have to take responsibility also.
    07-03-16 02:26 PM
  19. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    And there are lots of people clamouring, including countries and federations of countries like EU who are investigating google's practices.
    And yet, Google comes out on top nearly every time. The EU is a poor example to use in your argument. The EU takes numerous large corporations to task simply because that's part of their business model... sue sue sue to generate revenue.

    The argument that Google sells your data is stale, and has been disproven numerous times ad-nauseum. Google doesn't sell your data. They sell marketing information without revealing individual user data. Their whole business model is around targeted marketing, that's it. And the users of Google who accept that they're getting free services in exchange for marketing, would prefer to receive marketing tailored to what they actually want or need, versus a spam folder of garbage that they have zero interest in.

    The ONLY source of complaints about Google and their practices (legally speaking), are from Google's competitors (ie. Microsoft, Yandex, etc..). Google has proven time and again that they protect their user's privacy many times over. There has never ever been one example where Google knowingly betrayed the trust of their users. Google doesn't release your private information. Google doesn't ransom your data. Google doesn't betray their customers.

    Google has even paid hefty fines for refusing to turn over personal data, favoring their users' privacy.

    Even when Google had a gaff where their street view cars were mistakenly gathering more data that they should have with their WiFi mapping, Google fought tooth and nail not to turn that data over to government entities who suddenly felt that they had a right to that data (and paid through the nose in fines simply to protect said privacy).

    Google has even clashed with governments over them being refused the right to publish detailed government requests for information. They're forced to only publish vague "we've had X number of requests for information", and those increments have to be broken down to 1-10k, 10k-20k, 20k - 30k, etc.. blocks. They're not even allowed to give specific numbers of requests (and it's not just Google, all the big internet services have to abide by that).

    Yet despite all Google has transparently done to protect privacy, there are still those who are convinced they're an evil empire.
    Last edited by DenverRalphy; 07-03-16 at 03:23 PM.
    07-03-16 02:56 PM
  20. notovinar's Avatar
    And then there's the option of the Google Apps accounts, which are $5 per user per month, and don't use the data for marketing purposes.
    07-03-16 03:39 PM
  21. kvndoom's Avatar
    It's more about being informed and choosing to protect yourself from what you value most. It will vary from user to user, but there will be those who won't mind sharing what you might take offense to and that wouldn't share something that you might be ok with.

    There are instances where you can choose to go "off the grid" for a specific product that won't make you move to the woods lol.

    It's not a blanket all or nothing. Having That choice is key, and some might choose to avoid Google at all cost even it it is to go into the arms of someone that you might feel is worse than Google.

     Passport/SQW100-3 .2876 CB10 
    So you're worried about google selling your browsing habits to online advertisers, but a slimy car dealership selling your actual name, address, vehicle make and model, email address, and phone number to anyone with money and a pulse is okay?
    Ronindan likes this.
    07-03-16 10:18 PM
  22. jope28's Avatar
    So you're worried about google selling your browsing habits to online advertisers, but a slimy car dealership selling your actual name, address, vehicle make and model, email address, and phone number to anyone with money and a pulse is okay?
    Reading comprehension seems to be a lost art lol.

    Never said what was worrying to me or what wasn't. The point is that everyone gets a chance to judge what is important to them personally and act accordingly.

    But now that you ask, I choose to go Google free simply because I don't wish to be a part of their way of doing business. Just a personal choice and I think it's fine for others to decide to go the Google route if they wish.

     Passport/SQW100-3 .2876 CB10 
    07-04-16 12:30 AM
  23. Sairos's Avatar
    Reading comprehension seems to be a lost art lol.

    Never said what was worrying to me or what wasn't. The point is that everyone gets a chance to judge what is important to them personally and act accordingly.

    But now that you ask, I choose to go Google free simply because I don't wish to be a part of their way of doing business. Just a personal choice and I think it's fine for others to decide to go the Google route if they wish.

     Passport/SQW100-3 .2876 CB10 
    Interesting, What do you do in order to search for things, Other search engines or the old school way.. going through Libraries/Bookstores?.. Don't get me wrong, I love Books :P.. Just inquiring.
    07-04-16 12:45 AM
  24. Jerry A's Avatar
    Interesting, What do you do in order to search for things, Other search engines or the old school way.. going through Libraries/Bookstores?.. Don't get me wrong, I love Books :P.. Just inquiring.
    I'd guess DuckDuckGo.

    The rest use the data (even Wolfram in BB10 Assistant).
    07-04-16 01:27 AM
  25. xiaobaizz's Avatar
    Again, Priv is an abomination that Chen created and it is not selling. Less than 1 million unit sold for more than 6 months? You really screwed up big time, Chen.

    Anyway, please help me sign the petition to call for John Chen's resignation once the petition is ready, thanks guys! #chenout

    Posted via CB10
    07-04-16 08:32 AM
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