09-03-16 08:29 AM
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  1. markmall's Avatar
    BB10 is actually quite good as a music player with its file management system. Entertainment is a broad topic, and I doubt most people would point to BB10 as an entertainment device.

    BB10 is an exceptional communication device. That is its forte. Bringing up anything beyond that dilutes its focus, as far as I'm concerned.
    Not quite. I use my Passport every day for podcasts. Occasionally I will watch a YouTube video on it through the browser. As a podcast player it is extremely good. If I could not play podcasts on it, that would be a real problem for me. For videos, I will rely on a tablet because I do not like staring in a tiny screen. (Even a screen the size of a large android phone.)

    I suspect even business users require the ability to play audio by streaming media or playing their own MP3 files. This is necessary for airplanes and such.
    07-24-16 07:34 PM
  2. markmall's Avatar
    You don't actually believe that Pokemon players are all teenage girls, do you?
    No, they are in their bedrooms taking nude photos to send to boys on Instagram. Neither Pokeman nor Instagram are essential for the types of people that would be interested in the Passport or a newer version of the Z30.
    07-24-16 07:36 PM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    Good. You are you. I am I. (Are you one of these Millenials that has a hard time realizing other people exist?)

    Wells Fargo app. Wells Fargo is the third largest bank in the United States.
    Wells doesn't support BB10 does it? Do you mean you've been able to get their Android app to work/sideload?

    I don't use social apps to coordinate my plans. Most people over 30 I suspect do not either.
    I am well over 40, and can't coordinate my plans without apps. Between kids sports, track/race groups, sports fan groups, finding work colleagues in all the various cities I visit, etc., I can't imagine doing this without slack, groupme, WA and FB.

    Without IG, I'd only see the pictures I took myself at sports meets and track events. Why would I want to limit myself to just that?? And why wouldn't I, in turn, want to quickly share my pics with others (including others I haven't yet met)
    07-24-16 07:39 PM
  4. sorinv's Avatar
    I think you can say that about most people here on CB. The needs of people here, including the need to support the company, are unique compared to most of the general smartphone buying world.

    To me this is where the "if only BB advertised more" theme falls apart. There just aren't 10M or more people out there with the particular combinations of needs and interests and flexibility to deal with workarounds that we have here.
    I agree.
    07-24-16 07:40 PM
  5. TgeekB's Avatar
    No, they are in their bedrooms taking nude photos to send to boys on Instagram. Neither Pokeman nor Instagram are essential for the types of people that would be interested in the Passport or a newer version of the Z30.
    Not a very nice thing to say if you ask me.
    07-24-16 07:41 PM
  6. sorinv's Avatar
    BB10 is actually quite good as a music player with its file management system. Entertainment is a broad topic, and I doubt most people would point to BB10 as an entertainment device.

    BB10 is an exceptional communication device. That is its forte. Bringing up anything beyond that dilutes its focus, as far as I'm concerned.
    That's not what I did. I did not claim that BB10 phones were the best entertainment devices.
    I merely pointed out that it was not true that you couldn't listen to music on Bb10 and that you couldn't use a BB10 phone for entertainment activities such as reading books and watching TV or videos.
    07-24-16 07:43 PM
  7. TgeekB's Avatar
    That's not what I did. I did not claim that BB10 phones were the best entertainment devices.
    I merely pointed out that it was not true that you couldn't listen to music on Bb10 and that you couldn't use a BB10 phone for entertainment activities such as reading books and watching TV or videos.
    And I agreed with you.
    07-24-16 07:44 PM
  8. markmall's Avatar
    Wells doesn't support BB10 does it? Do you mean you've been able to get their Android app to work?



    I am well over 40, and can't coordinate my plans without apps. Between kids sports, track/race groups, sports fan groups, finding work colleagues in all the various cities I visit, etc., I can't imagine doing this without slack, groupme, WA and FB.

    Without IG, I'd only see the pictures I took myself at sports meets and track events. Why would I want to limit myself to just that?? And why wouldn't I, in turn, want to quickly share my pics with others (including others I haven't yet met)
    Wells Fargo's Android app has worked perfectly as long as I've used it.

    I wonder what industry you are in. Are you in tech? Marketing? Slack? I think in most industries people communicate using email or text messaging if in a pinch to get through to someone. You do not seem like a candidate for a BB10 phone.

    I should admit that the loss of Whatsapp sounds like it will be a real problem for BB10. I guess it doesn't matter anyway unless there is a change in management.
    07-24-16 07:44 PM
  9. sorinv's Avatar
    Sorinv, if you say that there are people that don't need these entertainment apps, the Chen and Android devotees will tell you that you are not facing facts. You are the only individual in the world that values productivity over apps for gossipy teenage girls.
    I do use my Passports for reading books, watching news and listening to music, usually while doing work on the same phone.
    But it is true that the last time I played a computer game was Harrier Attack in 1984 on a ZX Spectrum 48k.
    07-24-16 07:46 PM
  10. markmall's Avatar
    Not a very nice thing to say if you ask me.
    Toughen up. PC is over. If I insulted teenage girls, I apologize to all teenage girls out there reading this thread. I am sure there are legions of them.
    07-24-16 07:46 PM
  11. TgeekB's Avatar
    Toughen up. PC is over. If I insulted teenage girls, I apologize to all teenage girls out there reading this thread. I am sure there are legions of them.
    Sorry, it has nothing to do with being tough. It has to do with common decency.
    07-24-16 07:49 PM
  12. app_Developer's Avatar
    Wells Fargo's Android app has worked perfectly as long as I've used it.

    I wonder what industry you are in. Are you in tech? Marketing? Slack? I think in most industries people communicate using email or text messaging if in a pinch to get through to someone. You do not seem like a candidate for a BB10 phone.
    Normal people are not going to sideload their banking app. If someone called or chatted with us we would strongly discourage it.

    I work in another large bank (not Wells). I think most people in the world are actually not candidates for BB10 phones, that's sort of my point why advertising BB10 more broadly wouldn't have been a good use of resources.

    BTW, we are prohibited from using SMS to reach other employees since that's not very secure. And I'm not starting an email thread to ask people who wants to get together at the Hyatt tonight after the conference ends or who's going to be in SF on Monday and wants to grab dinner to catch up.
    07-24-16 07:50 PM
  13. markmall's Avatar
    Sorry, it has nothing to do with being tough. It has to do with common decency.
    You have very high standards of common decency then. I beg your forgiveness. I will never mention girls taking nude selfies around you again.
    07-24-16 08:13 PM
  14. markmall's Avatar
    Normal people are not going to sideload their banking app. If someone called or chatted with us we would strongly discourage it.

    I work in another large bank (not Wells). I think most people in the world are actually not candidates for BB10 phones, that's sort of my point why advertising BB10 more broadly wouldn't have been a good use of resources.
    I still meet occasional professionals using BB10 phones. They are not freaks living in a backwoods shed. Yes, it takes a particular type of user. But if all you need is 2% of the market and you have an OS that is inherently superior, it is worth trying to sell your wares. The odds of success are better than trying to cobble together some sort of false "security" narrative, rebrand a mediocre phone and then try to sell it at a premium.
    07-24-16 08:18 PM
  15. app_Developer's Avatar
    I still meet occasional professionals using BB10 phones. They are not freaks living in a backwoods shed. Yes, it takes a particular type of user. But if all you need is 2% of the market and you have an OS that is inherently superior, it is worth trying to sell your wares. The odds of success are better than trying to cobble together some sort of false "security" narrative, rebrand a mediocre phone and then try to sell it at a premium.
    I'd agree it's a particular type of user. (I'd disagree on the inherent superiority. I think that's certainly debatable.) I would argue BB10 is an inferior choice for most users in the world who have needs different from CB folks.

    But the question is how do you best reach a niche audience like this. I have other products I buy that are also very niche. I don't think any of them advertise on TV or big billboards or anything expensive like that. If you take a TV ad, and only 1% of the audience of that TV show would ever be even interested in your product, you've wasted a lot of money.

    So the question, which I don't know the answer to, is how would BB advertise to reach this particular niche?

    I think Chen would argue that the way to do it is direct sales to BES and Good customers.
    07-24-16 08:25 PM
  16. sorinv's Avatar
    I'd agree it's a particular type of user. (I'd disagree on the inherent superiority. I think that's certainly debatable.)

    But the question is how do you best reach a niche audience like this. I have other products I buy that are also very niche. I don't think any of them advertise on TV or big billboards or anything expensive like that. If you take a TV ad, and only 1% of the audience of that TV show would ever be even interested in your product, you've wasted a lot of money.

    So the question, which I don't know the answer to, is how would BB advertise to reach this particular niche?

    I think Chen would argue that the way to do it is direct sales to BES and Good customers.
    I wouldn't be one of those and all of those together are less than 0.01%.
    Even now, most of the 20M or so BlackBerry BBOS and BB10 users would not be BES and Good customers.
    He has to address a wider audience.
    Honestly, Chen has ruined any security reputation BlackBerry had.
    I wonder how any business outside US would even trust BES and Good with their data given Chen's repeated statements.
    I don't see how he can grow a software business after all these reckless statements.
    07-24-16 08:33 PM
  17. markmall's Avatar
    I'd agree it's a particular type of user. (I'd disagree on the inherent superiority. I think that's certainly debatable.)

    But the question is how do you best reach a niche audience like this. I have other products I buy that are also very niche. I don't think any of them advertise on TV or big billboards or anything expensive like that. If you take a TV ad, and only 1% of the audience of that TV show would ever be even interested in your product, you've wasted a lot of money.

    So the question, which I don't know the answer to, is how would BB advertise to reach this particular niche?

    I think Chen would argue that the way to do it is direct sales to BES and Good customers.
    Yes, good point. I don't think that you would do it anything like the initial BB10 rollout, but there are certain basic things that they should have done. Also, marketing is not limited to advertising.

    General brand image management is one. They had to do things similar to Formula 1 sponsorship to get their name out just so people can see that they exist and they have enough confidence to advertise. Not high profile stuff like the Superbowl ad, but more targeted ads. Golf tournaments would have been really good to hit with an ad.

    Chen has spent money on the Priv by "sponsoring" the ABC Sunday Morning talk show with George Stephanapolous (or one of them). Little things like this count. It took Chen three years to figure this out. Horrible. Chen has run Blackberry like his own family business. The decision to name the Priv had to come from him, and no one under him felt confident enough to tell him, "no way, boss."

    Also, the NY popup store is another too late concession by Chen that he has to spend money on marketing.

    You can pay publicists to get mentions or reviews in the right websites and magazines.

    Another basic thing is making sure that retailers that sell your devices have demos that are charged and ready to be handled. Many people have reported on this website that demo devices are never ready to be used.
    07-24-16 08:34 PM
  18. elhot69's Avatar
    BlackBerry is trying to survive in a World where other companies just Give Up (Ericksson, Palm, Siemens, Kyocera, Nokia).

    Is Hard when people dont appreciate a better OS instead more Apps, BB10 has the Best Virtual KB, and dont need any button to be managed.

    Posted via CB10
    07-24-16 08:35 PM
  19. markmall's Avatar
    I wouldn't be one of those and all of those together are less than 0.01%.
    Even now, most of the 20M or so BlackBerry BBOS and BB10 users would not be BES and Good customers.
    He has to address a wider audience.
    Honestly, Chen has ruined any security reputation BlackBerry had.
    I wonder how any business outside US would even trust BES and Good with their data given Chen's repeated statements.
    I don't see how he can grow a software business after all these reckless statements.
    Direct sales to BES and Good customers? I agree that would not get blackberry anywhere.

    Chen's acquisitions might provide him with an escape pod if the larger business simply implodes further. I do not think there is any genuine positive added value by common ownership of Good and Chen's other acquisitions. Maybe he will figure something out eventually, but at this time blackberry just owns them.
    07-24-16 08:39 PM
  20. Jerry A's Avatar
    This is not really how it happened though. The OHA will only grant Google Services and Apps to 100% compatible versions of Android. Otherwise it would be a support nightmare.
    And it's not really Google's fault that BlackBerry couldn't make BB10 compelling enough at launch to get ANY major apps on-board (native or Android).
    07-24-16 09:04 PM
  21. Jerry A's Avatar
    For millions it's enough or they use a second device for social apps. These millions never learned of bb10.
    I think you overstate the general public based on your usage pattern. Looking at the real world people I know, no one is using multiple devices. And certainly not for social apps - they're taken care of by their primary (and only device).

    The only place I've seen this 2 device mindset permeate is on these forums. It's a band-aid no one else needs or wants.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-24-16 09:09 PM
  22. markmall's Avatar
    I think you overstate the general public based on your usage pattern. Looking at the real world people I know, no one is using multiple devices. And certainly not for social apps - they're taken care of by their primary (and only device).

    The only place I've seen this 2 device mindset permeate is on these forums. It's a band-aid no one else needs or wants.
    Many people have to use two devices. People in government other than Hillary Clinton. A friend of mine in finance had to use two devices. (His work was highly regulated and he could not mix social with client work.) People that are tech-minded have multiple devices. Probably some people here. My Android phones are not on a call plan. I don't think they need to be for any apps. At least not the ones I use.
    07-24-16 10:29 PM
  23. app_Developer's Avatar
    Interesting interview in Ad Age last year with Mark Wilson and Christoph Becker (Gyro):

    Blackberry and Its Agency Discuss Turnaround | BtoB - AdAge
    07-24-16 11:27 PM
  24. Invictus0's Avatar
    Mark Wilson ain't no VP of marketing. Is there a VP of marketing? Here is Wilson's bizarre title and job description from your link:

    "As Chief Evangelist, Mark Wilson is responsible for delivering the BlackBerry message through thought leadership and other opportunities that promote the brand. He leads advocacy and outreach to the audiences around the world that BlackBerry touches with its portfolio of products and services."

    I think what this means is that Chen wants him to sell smart phones but not give Wilson any budget for marketing expenditures. How many smart phone manufacturers with any kind of brand rely upon guerrilla marketing? I think that is what this means is that Wilson is supposed to use free or almost free guerrilla marketing tactics.
    From the interview I posted above,

    Mark Wilson, the senior VP-marketing, who began in January,
    BlackBerry Taps B-toB Agency Gyro to Remake Its Brand | Agency News - AdAge

    Chief Evangelist is a real role at tech companies, Apple is famous for it. Good intro here,

    Why every company needs a chief evangelist | VentureBeat | Entrepreneur | by Meghan Kelly

    Sorinv, if you say that there are people that don't need these entertainment apps, the Chen and Android devotees will tell you that you are not facing facts. You are the only individual in the world that values productivity over apps for gossipy teenage girls.
    Seems Wilson's messaging is working

    We really believe the message 'It's not a toy' is resonating with our audience. We want to continue that momentum in the marketplace.
    Blackberry and Its Agency Discuss Turnaround | BtoB - AdAge
    07-24-16 11:52 PM
  25. markmall's Avatar
    Interesting interview in Ad Age last year with Mark Wilson and Christoph Becker (Gyro):

    Blackberry and Its Agency Discuss Turnaround | BtoB - AdAge
    That is a really interesting article. I cannot believe that was from only last summer.

    It sounds like they are trying to do a whole lot with nothing. (Social media budget cut 98%! How much was the rest of the budget? Zero?) John Chen's loose lips probably has squashed any momentum Wilson was able to muster. How many professional would buy on to the Passport when they Google search "Blackberry" to discovery BB10 is getting killed by Blackberry.

    Here is a telling portion:

    Mr. Wilson: When I came on board, we cut our social media budget by 98%, but we have seen our [content] output double since then. One of the things we did was bring on brand journalists to help drive a thought leadership [WTF?] program. This is all about being frugal, and it has worked.

    Ad Age: What's next in terms of advertising and marketing?

    Mr. Wilson: We will continue to go after the verticals we are in -- health care, financial services, professional services, etc. -- with more executions. We really believe the message 'It's not a toy' is resonating with our audience. We want to continue that momentum in the marketplace.

    Mr. Becker: There is nothing better than being seriously productive in your job, and only BlackBerry was born to deliver that. The goal is to continue to deliver and dial up that message on a global basis.
    07-25-16 01:54 AM
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