09-03-16 08:29 AM
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  1. markmall's Avatar
    How much did they spend in advertising last year? I bet it was $100M or more.

    $100M is not very much in the consumer ad space. They could have easily spent that and more and not gotten that much attention.
    I don't think it was close. Someone cited an article a while back about the advertising at the time of BB10's launch (above?). It was a big ad buy for BB and I think it was around $200M. No way they are spending as much per year now. It's hard to even say they are advertising. Banner ads? A car sponsorship? (Not anymore, I don't think.)

    But what does that mean for the device costs? If they sold 5M devices (net returns), that means $20 per device. If they managed to sell 2M then you're looking at a ridiculous $50 per device. Apple spends quite bit less on advertising on a per device basis.
    The goal would be to sell 10M devices or more. Remember when Chen started, everyone thought this was possible. Then BB dropped from the face of the earth and never corrected the public misperceptions after the company did not go under.

    Now noticed I said net the returns. That's where you and I probably differ. I think most people who would have bought BB10 phones because of increased advertising would have returned them anyway. They would have found this site or other tip sites, saw that you have to install Cobalt this and workaround that, and done what most normal people would do and just return the thing.
    I think that the target market would be people that do not intend to run many apps. These are people that send a lot of emails and need to use the phone for business. The don't need the teenager apps or even Facebook. My bank app still works perfectly well as do some others.

    Actually, it is more expensive than you think. Because most people buy things that are actually in stock. If BB had increased their ad spend, then they would also have had to increase their inventory in channel. There is no way to avoid that cost, and they absolutely go hand in hand (ad spending and inventory). That is how this runs into the billions very quickly. (See the Z10 for an example of this)
    I don't know how ads can drive up inventory costs other than you hope to sell more and must have more units on hand. But even without ads, you need to project demand and build units.


    I would say Chen did look at the massive drop in demand and he actually did conclude (correctly) that there was something very wrong with his products. That why he moved money away from BB10.
    Who knows what he thought? He named his flagship Android phone "the Priv." My firm belief for YEARS has been that they did not market the phones properly -- including advertising.

    We'll see what happens to Apple. I think their phone business will shrink over the next few years. They are a few years behind BB in that cycle. Let's see what the iPhone sales are like in 2020.
    Apple owns the wealthy and older market -- people that don't have time to mess with Android's issues. It's not going anywhere. People love the brand.


    Imagine if artists and designers couldn't run Photoshop on their Macs. Or if you couldn't edit a Powerpoint on one. GIMP and Open Office wouldn't have cut it. People really do want the real thing.
    Photoshop:artists::Snapchat:attorneys -- does not compute. I still think there is/was enough people that would have used something as elegant as the Passport if they knew about it. Chen was not even close to reaching these people.
    07-24-16 02:46 AM
  2. JeepBB's Avatar
    Imagine if artists and designers couldn't run Photoshop on their Macs. Or if you couldn't edit a Powerpoint on one. GIMP and Open Office wouldn't have cut it. People really do want the real thing.
    Slightly off-topic, but IIRC the initial success of Macs was due to having those must-have apps available *only* on a Mac. If you were a publisher, artist, or musician back in the day - a Mac was your only logical choice. Macs pretty much owned the "creative" niche.

    Apple couldn't stop Adobe taking Photoshop to the PC, and lost some users, but they've made damn sure that apps *they* control remain available only on the Mac. If you want to do iOS development, or want to use the amazing (and free) GarageBand DAW; the only sensible decision is to buy a Mac - even today, when PC's rule.
    StephanieMaks likes this.
    07-24-16 06:49 AM
  3. sorinv's Avatar
    By too far, do you mean cutting out almost all of the BB10 staff? I think he did this because he lost faith in BB10. Or maybe he didn't have any to begin with.



    Whoa, I don't know where you get to $1B. Good was the only company of any substantial size, and that was $425. The others were all much, much smaller companies. $1B seems quite a stretch to me.



    How much did they spend in advertising last year? I bet it was $100M or more.

    $100M is not very much in the consumer ad space. They could have easily spent that and more and not gotten that much attention.

    But what does that mean for the device costs? If they sold 5M devices (net returns), that means $20 per device. If they managed to sell 2M then you're looking at a ridiculous $50 per device. Apple spends quite bit less on advertising on a per device basis.

    Now noticed I said net the returns. That's where you and I probably differ. I think most people who would have bought BB10 phones because of increased advertising would have returned them anyway. They would have found this site or other tip sites, saw that you have to install Cobalt this and workaround that, and done what most normal people would do and just return the thing.

    It takes a phone fan like you or me to even bother trying to figure out who this Cobalt is.



    Actually, it is more expensive than you think. Because most people buy things that are actually in stock. If BB had increased their ad spend, then they would also have had to increase their inventory in channel. There is no way to avoid that cost, and they absolutely go hand in hand (ad spending and inventory). That is how this runs into the billions very quickly. (See the Z10 for an example of this)



    BlackBerry does not have a distribution network. And it can't have one, because it can't afford to even make enough phones to keep channels full. And it certainly can't afford the staff to go around and train sales staff or make sure the BB displays are up to snuff at thousands of phone outlets and big box stores.

    I would say Chen did look at the massive drop in demand and he actually did conclude (correctly) that there was something very wrong with his products. That why he moved money away from BB10.



    We'll see what happens to Apple. I think their phone business will shrink over the next few years. They are a few years behind BB in that cycle. Let's see what the iPhone sales are like in 2020.



    If not for Adobe CS, MS Office and some speciality music tools, the Mac would have died and Apple would have given up. The Mac held onto to just enough important apps to survive. BB10 hasn't held onto any interesting apps.

    Imagine if artists and designers couldn't run Photoshop on their Macs. Or if you couldn't edit a Powerpoint on one. GIMP and Open Office wouldn't have cut it. People really do want the real thing.

    I'm on a Mac right now. If I didn't have official, no kidding, no BS workarounds, distributions of Go and Docker, I would put this thing in a drawer and buy a PC. The only reason I can use a Mac in reality is because of developer support.
    Funny, but I have zero apps other than Openoffice (no microsoft offfice) and X11 on my Mac.

    Also funny that I use bB10 adobe and bb10 docs to go on my passport. Apart from the file manager and hub, they are the most used "apps" for me to do my work.

    So, your examples are not the best to support your arguments.
    07-24-16 07:59 AM
  4. sorinv's Avatar
    If it's a fact, you should be able to link to some data to prove it? BlackBerry had actually hired a new ad company to market the Passport for them,

    BlackBerry Taps B-toB Agency Gyro to Remake Its Brand | Agency News - AdAge

    .
    That was after two years from the launch. You couldn't see a Passport in any store other than online in Toronto for two years, let alone elsewhere.
    Chen realized after two years of failure to sell phones and, most of all, after the capital failure of his app loaded android Priv, that he needed some marketing to sell products.
    Too late, after firing the VP of Marketing immediately when he arrived at BlackBerry and hiring no one to replace him for more than two years.
    Last edited by sorinv; 07-24-16 at 08:24 AM.
    07-24-16 08:05 AM
  5. Emaderton3's Avatar
    I think we are underestimating the desire for apps by business folks. Some want to stay in touch with family through social apps. Some use social apps for business to make connections. Some may want to unwind and listen to music through an app or play a quick game. And some use professional apps that just aren't available for BlackBerry 10.

    Posted via CB10
    07-24-16 08:09 AM
  6. sorinv's Avatar
    I think we are underestimating the desire for apps by business folks. Some want to stay in touch with family through social apps. Some use social apps for business to make connections. Some may want to unwind and listen to music through an app or play a quick game. And some use professional apps that just aren't available for BlackBerry 10.

    Posted via CB10
    Yes, but I watch livestreaming TV on my passport from across the world anywhere I am in the world, I read books on my passport, I listen to music on my passport, and I do most of these entertainment activities while working on my passport, editing papers, reading papers, editing and answering emails, organizing my files and transferring them remotely to my real work Linux workstation which cannot be replaced by a Mac or PC running Windows.
    For a professional engineer like me, the passport is the perfect mobile laptop. It has most of what I need and I couldn't afford the insecurity and lack of privacy of android. I haven't seen any app on android or Mac that I would miss on bB10, except for ssh with x11 forwarding. That kind of app would have to come from a trusted source for me to use, for obvious security reasons.

    Sure, I can see how many businesses would need apps not available on bb10, but there are many business cases where a bb10 phone is better than any other alternatives and still provides most of the entertainment options that most people need and all the websurfing and browser experience that PC users have.

    The biggest problem with BB10 now is not lack of apps. It's the compromised security and privacy that Chen has worked very hard for the past 2.5 years to accomplish. Sadly, he performed that job better than anything else he did at BlackBerry.
    Last edited by sorinv; 07-24-16 at 09:07 AM.
    07-24-16 08:31 AM
  7. Invictus0's Avatar
    That was after two years from the launch. You couldn't see a Passport in any store other than online in Toronto for two years, let alone elsewhere.
    Chen realized after two years of failure to sell phones and, most of all, after the capital failure of his app loaded android Priv, that he needed some marketing to sell products.
    Too late, after firing the VP of Marketing immediately when he arrived at BlackBerry and hiring no one to replace him for more than two years.
    Sorry, I don't follow? Gyro was hired specifically to help market the Passport, they had other firms before then. Mark Wilson, the marketing VP mentioned in the article, is still at BlackBerry and in a marketing role.

    BlackBerry Executive Team - United States
    07-24-16 09:31 AM
  8. TgeekB's Avatar
    Yes, but I watch livestreaming TV on my passport from across the world anywhere I am in the world, I read books on my passport, I listen to music on my passport, and I do most of these entertainment activities while working on my passport, editing papers, reading papers, editing and answering emails, organizing my files and transferring them remotely to my real work Linux workstation which cannot be replaced by a Mac or PC running Windows.
    For a professional engineer like me, the passport is the perfect mobile laptop. It has most of what I need and I couldn't afford the insecurity and lack of privacy of android. I haven't seen any app on android or Mac that I would miss on bB10, except for ssh with x11 forwarding. That kind of app would have to come from a trusted source for me to use, for obvious security reasons.

    Sure, I can see how many businesses would need apps not available on bb10, but there are many business cases where a bb10 phone is better than any other alternatives and still provides most of the entertainment options that most people need and all the websurfing and browser experience that PC users have.

    The biggest problem with BB10 now is not lack of apps. It's the compromised security and privacy that Chen has worked very hard for the past 2.5 years to accomplish. Sadly, he performed that job better than anything else he did at BlackBerry.
    No one is doubting your interest in BB10, we're talking about everyone else. People like to point out why they like it, and that's great, but it doesn't sell phones to those who think differently.
    07-24-16 09:41 AM
  9. CharlieV's Avatar
    The truth is that Google choked off BlackBerry by not allowing integration with Google services. Yes, I know there is a hack for that and most people just aren't interested in going to that trouble. Also, it doesn't work perfectly. BlackBerry 10 is a great OS--even critics agree on that point--but the "app gap" cannot be bridged with Amazon's marketplace.

    I think that if BlackBerry had a perfectly functioning runtime and Google integration it would, at least, be better off.

    Yet everyone here knows that integrating Google services into a BlackBerry undermines one of the core principles of the company: security.

    A Hobson's choice. And BlackBerry chose poorly. But the choice was not entirely free because Google stood in the way. Embracing the Android OS is the price of admission to Google services and that is the MAIN reason BlackBerry has abandoned billions invested in BlackBerry 10. And yes, BlackBerry 10 is abandoned. All of this "might make" and "hooray for BlackBerry" stuff is just wishful thinking.

    BlackBerry and Apple are the only two manufacturers who historically controlled both the hardware and software on their phones. Now it is just Apple, if the Priv and every upcoming product are any measure. Could Apple survive if it was forced to sell android phones? Probably, but greatly reduced... just like BlackBerry.

    I think Chen has done the best he can when dealt a crappy hand. BlackBerry 10 devices don't sell. People think BlackBerry is dead or are so apathetic about it that they don't even care. He is right to cancel them and move on.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android (Priv)
    TgeekB and JeepBB like this.
    07-24-16 10:00 AM
  10. conite's Avatar
    The truth is that Google choked off BlackBerry by not allowing integration with Google services.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android (Priv)
    This is not really how it happened though. The OHA will only grant Google Services and Apps to 100% compatible versions of Android. Otherwise it would be a support nightmare.
    07-24-16 10:06 AM
  11. Emaderton3's Avatar
    No one is doubting your interest in BB10, we're talking about everyone else. People like to point out why they like it, and that's great, but it doesn't sell phones to those who think differently.
    And that is why my wife switched to Android. The apps she found useful for work were not available for BlackBerry 10. There have been numerous posts in the past by doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors, etc that would like access to apps on their phones that they find useful but weren't available. I am glad a lot of people can get what they need from BlackBerry 10, but it is not enough for many.

    Posted via CB10
    TgeekB, JeepBB and johnny_bravo72 like this.
    07-24-16 10:22 AM
  12. CharlieV's Avatar
    This is not really how it happened though. The OHA will only grant Google Services and Apps to 100% compatible versions of Android. Otherwise it would be a support nightmare.
    Hmm. Okay. I didn't know that. Thanks for posting. That gives me something to study so I don't have to go out in the heat and mow.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android (Priv)
    hoytbowhunter likes this.
    07-24-16 12:29 PM
  13. hoytbowhunter's Avatar
    Chen give us the BlackBerry Priv for apps and everyone complained about it, after they complained about not having apps. I'm not complaining cause I bought the BlackBerry Priv the day it came out, if people would just give it a chance they would love it. I didn't want to leave my BlackBerry Z10 or any other BlackBerry 10 phones I own for the Priv but I at least tried it, sure glad I did because it's the best phone I own and I have 15 more besides the Priv.
    07-24-16 01:53 PM
  14. markmall's Avatar
    No one is doubting your interest in BB10, we're talking about everyone else. People like to point out why they like it, and that's great, but it doesn't sell phones to those who think differently.
    You think everyone must prefer the Passport for it to sell? Or nearly everyone? You only need a small fraction plus public awareness.
    07-24-16 04:17 PM
  15. markmall's Avatar
    And that is why my wife switched to Android. The apps she found useful for work were not available for BlackBerry 10. There have been numerous posts in the past by doctors, lawyers, engineers, professors, etc that would like access to apps on their phones that they find useful but weren't available. I am glad a lot of people can get what they need from BlackBerry 10, but it is not enough for many.

    Posted via CB10
    For millions it's enough or they use a second device for social apps. These millions never learned of bb10.
    07-24-16 04:20 PM
  16. Emaderton3's Avatar
    For millions it's enough or they use a second device for social apps. These millions never learned of bb10.
    Then why did everyone abandon BlackBerry? I work at a major medical center that was dominated by BlackBerry phones and happily using BES as its only enterprise software. Now no one uses them, yet they are still just as productive answering emails (like my wife who gets over 100 a day) on other platforms and not carrying two devices. Center dumped BES even though it can manage all platforms now. I see them everywhere in the halls using their phones. It's obvious when many are in scrubs--they aren't carrying two devices but doing everything with just one. This is the reality we are in. BlackBerry doesn't even have apps for the major news providers like CNN and ESPN, and even the USA Today app has abandoned updating sports scores. No reason why these millions shouldn't carry a BlackBerry 10 for work and another device for apps then--but they don't, many carry one device because they are super busy and want to see the Facebook update of their kids while they answer an email about a patient. And I see this everywhere I go--people multitasking on one device. And if they aren't, like I often see when I travel, they break out a tablet on an airplane for fun stuff. Millions and millions could be using BlackBerry but they aren't. It isn't just as simple as carrying two devices.

    Posted via CB10
    TgeekB likes this.
    07-24-16 05:46 PM
  17. TgeekB's Avatar
    You think everyone must prefer the Passport for it to sell? Or nearly everyone? You only need a small fraction plus public awareness.
    Not just the Passport but the entire BB10 platform. You could give a free BB10 device to every citizen of any country, your pick, and it wouldn't convince them to use it because they are already invested in a different ecosystem that gives them what they want. Sure it works for some of us, but not for enough.

    Posted via CB10
    07-24-16 06:00 PM
  18. app_Developer's Avatar
    For millions it's enough or they use a second device for social apps. These millions never learned of bb10.
    That's a lot to carry two devices all the time. I need social apps more than ever on weekend and evenings, and that's generally when I don't have a bag with me. It is a nice thing to have everything on one small device that fits in any pocket.

    And we aren't just talking about social apps. You said earlier your bank supports BB10 still. I think the only banks which support BB10 now are in Scotland and Canada, right? 99% of the people on the planet don't live in Scotland or Canada. What is the rest of the world supposed to do for banking?

    Use the browser I guess. Fans of BlackBerry will make such compromises and do whatever it takes to support the company, even carrying two devices around. I still think most people in the world wouldn't bother, even if they were aware of the choice. Some random person in Germany has no interest in BlackBerry or no patriotic reason to support a Canadian brand, so why wouldn't he just choose the phone that works with every other service in his life with no fuss or workarounds?
    07-24-16 06:30 PM
  19. sorinv's Avatar
    No one is doubting your interest in BB10, we're talking about everyone else. People like to point out why they like it, and that's great, but it doesn't sell phones to those who think differently.
    I was just pointing out that the statement that you cannot listen to music or have entertainment on BB10 was wrong.
    Yes, I know I am different and unique and I am proud of it.
    I certainly don't go about hunting Pokemons and mapping the indoors and outdoors for Google and the NSA in the process.
    07-24-16 07:13 PM
  20. markmall's Avatar
    Sorry, I don't follow? Gyro was hired specifically to help market the Passport, they had other firms before then. Mark Wilson, the marketing VP mentioned in the article, is still at BlackBerry and in a marketing role.

    BlackBerry Executive Team - United States
    Mark Wilson ain't no VP of marketing. Is there a VP of marketing? Here is Wilson's bizarre title and job description from your link:

    "As Chief Evangelist, Mark Wilson is responsible for delivering the BlackBerry message through thought leadership and other opportunities that promote the brand. He leads advocacy and outreach to the audiences around the world that BlackBerry touches with its portfolio of products and services."

    I think what this means is that Chen wants him to sell smart phones but not give Wilson any budget for marketing expenditures. How many smart phone manufacturers with any kind of brand rely upon guerrilla marketing? I think that is what this means is that Wilson is supposed to use free or almost free guerrilla marketing tactics.
    07-24-16 07:23 PM
  21. app_Developer's Avatar
    Yes, I know I am different and unique and I am proud of it.
    I think you can say that about most people here on CB. The needs of people here, including the need to support the company, are unique compared to most of the general smartphone buying world.

    To me this is where the "if only BB advertised more" theme falls apart. There just aren't 10M or more people out there with the particular combinations of needs and interests and flexibility to deal with workarounds that we have here.
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    07-24-16 07:23 PM
  22. markmall's Avatar
    I was just pointing out that the statement that you cannot listen to music or have entertainment on BB10 was wrong.
    Yes, I know I am different and unique and I am proud of it.
    I certainly don't go about hunting Pokemons and mapping the indoors and outdoors for Google and the NSA in the process.
    Sorinv, if you say that there are people that don't need these entertainment apps, the Chen and Android devotees will tell you that you are not facing facts. You are the only individual in the world that values productivity over apps for gossipy teenage girls.
    07-24-16 07:26 PM
  23. app_Developer's Avatar
    Sorinv, if you say that there are people that don't need these entertainment apps, the Chen and Android devotees will tell you that you are not facing facts. You are the only individual in the world that values productivity over apps for gossipy teenage girls.
    You don't actually believe that Pokemon players are all teenage girls, do you?
    07-24-16 07:28 PM
  24. TgeekB's Avatar
    I was just pointing out that the statement that you cannot listen to music or have entertainment on BB10 was wrong.
    Yes, I know I am different and unique and I am proud of it.
    I certainly don't go about hunting Pokemons and mapping the indoors and outdoors for Google and the NSA in the process.
    BB10 is actually quite good as a music player with its file management system. Entertainment is a broad topic, and I doubt most people would point to BB10 as an entertainment device.

    BB10 is an exceptional communication device. That is its forte. Bringing up anything beyond that dilutes its focus, as far as I'm concerned.
    07-24-16 07:28 PM
  25. markmall's Avatar
    That's a lot to carry two devices all the time. I need social apps more than ever on weekend and evenings, and that's generally when I don't have a bag with me. It is a nice thing to have everything on one small device that fits in any pocket.
    Good. You are you. I am I. (Are you one of these Millenials that has a hard time realizing other people exist?)

    And we aren't just talking about social apps. You said earlier your bank supports BB10 still. I think the only banks which support BB10 now are in Scotland and Canada, right? 99% of the people on the planet don't live in Scotland or Canada. What is the rest of the world supposed to do for banking?
    Wells Fargo app. Wells Fargo is the third largest bank in the United States.

    Use the browser I guess. Fans of BlackBerry will make such compromises and do whatever it takes to support the company, even carrying two devices around. I still think most people in the world wouldn't bother, even if they were aware of the choice. Some random person in Germany has no interest in BlackBerry or no patriotic reason to support a Canadian brand, so why wouldn't he just choose the phone that works with every other service in his life with no fuss or workarounds?
    I think buying an overpriced and inferior product is making a compromise to support Blackberry. I use the device that enhances my life and my work. (Making excuses for abysmal and visionless management is making a compromise, too.)

    I do not need to carry an Android device around. They are cheap. I have one laying around my office desk and one at home. I use them for a few apps I wouldn't want on my work phone anyway.

    I don't use social apps to coordinate my plans. Most people over 30 I suspect do not either.
    07-24-16 07:31 PM
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