09-03-16 08:29 AM
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  1. anon(9742832)'s Avatar
    After using it for 8 months, I can say, as a total package, it is very good - the best BlackBerry device to date. You need to give it a try while remaining patient while you change workflow and muscle memory.

    Three issues:

    1) Android Marshmallow, which I won't say much about because you can find many resources out there. But I will quickly note that app integration runs very deep into the OS allowing unbeatable sharing and data manipulation.

    2) BlackBerry apps. I find the launcher lightweight and clean, with the familiar sparks. The HUB, if kept running, can be accessed from anywhere in under half a second. If BB10 HUB was a 10/10, I would give this at least an 8. I've set up swipe gestures to toggle read and flag status. A quick pull down menu can filter the hub by category, and swipe from left brings up separate accounts.

    3) dtek, hardening, and quick security updates. I have set up dtek to warn me of ANY access to locations, camera, contacts and storage. I can then further filter by app to tailor permissions by adding back access. I also like getting updates faster than Nexus.

    Any other questions?
    No and thank you very much...................its time to take the plunge......................thank yuo for taking the time to spell it out clear and concise.
    IndianTiwari likes this.
    07-21-16 05:04 PM
  2. sorinv's Avatar
    You are moving the posts of the discussion again. I'm not talking about Google's targeted advertising.

    I'm talking about the need for balance.

    I would never advocate blanket government surveillance. It would have to be targeted, specific access with a warrant. If a deal isn't worked out along those lines, governments may in fact legislate the former. Surely you would not be happy with that outcome.
    I take gun control and bomb control over communication and thought control any time.
    Once the governments eliminate guns and bombs from public access, then, if terrorism still remains a problem, we can debate the threat of terrorism and if communications should be surveiled.
    As for doing it with a legal warrant, we always had that. Nothing changed in the Internet era.
    07-21-16 08:14 PM
  3. conite's Avatar
    I take gun control and bomb control over communication and thought control any time.
    Once the governments eliminate guns and bombs from public access, then, if terrorism still remains a problem, we can debate the threat of terrorism and if communications should be surveiled.
    As for doing it with a legal warrant, we always had that. Nothing changed in the Internet era.
    You're still ignoring my point that if a compromise is not made (and I don't know what that would be), something may be legislated that is much, much less palatable.

    Priv STV100-1 AAF518 / Q5SQR100-1/10.3.3.746
    07-21-16 08:59 PM
  4. sorinv's Avatar
    You're still ignoring my point that if a compromise is not made (and I don't know what that would be), something may be legislated that is much, much less palatable.

    Priv STV100-1 AAF518 / Q5SQR100-1/10.3.3.746
    I am not ignoring it. It's a speculation. It may or may not happen. Anything can happen but it shouldn't happen in a democracy.
    07-21-16 10:38 PM
  5. Alain_A's Avatar
    No and thank you very much...................its time to take the plunge......................thank yuo for taking the time to spell it out clear and concise.
    Once you get it. Instead of saying " Woof" you'll be saying " RRRRRRRRRRRR"
    07-21-16 10:48 PM
  6. markmall's Avatar
    I honestly couldn't care less. A decent product, backed by BlackBerry, with BlackBerry hardening tech, and BlackBerry apps is good enough for me.

    Who's to say BlackBerry could design a better Android device anyway?
    Conite, I'm convinced you are Chen's summer intern. It is becoming clearer and clearer.

    Posted via CB10
    07-21-16 11:43 PM
  7. itsnotaboutart's Avatar
    Anything can happen but it shouldn't happen in a democracy.
    Pretty much every right can be infringed, even in a democracy.

    A right to free speech does not permit someone to yell "Fire" in a crowded theatre. Freedom of religion does not permit someone to refuse service to a gay person. Even the sacrosanct right to bear arms in the US does not empower someone to own a machine gun.

    If a government, including a democratic one, determined that end-to-end encryption disrupts the appropriate balance between the right to privacy and the societal benefits of government infringing that right when justified, it can and no doubt would change the laws to restore the perceived appropriate balance. There is already a move to do just that in the US: http://thehill.com/policy/cybersecur...cause-of-child

    My understanding is that is what Chen is saying is coming down the pipe. As much as Apple and others like to boast of end-to-end encryption, that party is coming to an end. Everybody will be forced to do what BlackBerry is already doing.
    07-21-16 11:49 PM
  8. markmall's Avatar
    If by 'restructuring' you mean firing so many people that costs come down low enough to compensate for falling revenue LULZ
    Bingo! I could be the CEO of Ford Motor Company. I will fire every factory worker and engineer, fire 3/4 of the managers, sell all the real estate and then overpay for a handful of auto related startups that are marginally breakeven.

    Look, everyone! I turned Ford nearly cash flow positive!

    Posted via CB10
    techvisor likes this.
    07-21-16 11:51 PM
  9. conite's Avatar
    Bingo! I could be the CEO of Ford Motor Company. I will fire every factory worker and engineer, fire 3/4 of the managers, sell all the real estate and then overpay for a handful of auto related startups that are marginally breakeven.

    Look, everyone! I turned Ford nearly cash flow positive!

    Posted via CB10
    But if Ford recognized it was losing huge dollars on building cars, and determined that they excelled at infotainment systems, they wouldn't need all those people anymore.
    app_Developer likes this.
    07-22-16 06:57 AM
  10. ohaiguise's Avatar
    Rather than fire them, BlackBerry should have sent the thousands out into the world to preach the gospel of BlackBerry 10, spreading the light to every corner of the world.
    07-22-16 07:10 AM
  11. kvndoom's Avatar
    Bingo! I could be the CEO of Ford Motor Company. I will fire every factory worker and engineer, fire 3/4 of the managers, sell all the real estate and then overpay for a handful of auto related startups that are marginally breakeven.

    Look, everyone! I turned Ford nearly cash flow positive!

    Posted via CB10

    Attachment 404546

    Attachment 404547
    Good thing only BlackBerry downsizes when times are tough! Ford employees definitely have nothing to worry about!

    Passport SE, "The BlockBerry" - Cricket Wireless
    07-22-16 07:24 AM
  12. anon(9742832)'s Avatar
    Conite, I'm convinced you are Chen's summer intern. It is becoming clearer and clearer.

    Posted via CB10
    I have to say I think you are wrong on many points, Conite is always one of the first to stick a hand out to help with either OS 10 or in my case a Priv. I fully understand how you feel, but people like Conite and even to more of and extent Cobalt have kept many an OS 10 phones up and running.....and in the end for nothing.
    TgeekB and IndianTiwari like this.
    07-22-16 07:50 AM
  13. stlabrat's Avatar
    BB need to replace the subscription fee of OS7 with some steady income. Just like GE need to replace their Financial arm with new products. Apple got cloud, itune. Amazon got prime, Costco got membership, Netflix $ as well. The OS7 with the server was the cash cow. Hopefully, BB find that some unique, secure, selective excess point soon. Or, get some Pokemon for business style.... search for real $. ;-)
    07-22-16 03:03 PM
  14. TgeekB's Avatar
    BB need to replace the subscription fee of OS7 with some steady income. Just like GE need to replace their Financial arm with new products. Apple got cloud, itune. Amazon got prime, Costco got membership, Netflix $ as well. The OS7 with the server was the cash cow. Hopefully, BB find that some unique, secure, selective excess point soon. Or, get some Pokemon for business style.... search for real $. ;-)
    Stickers? LOL.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-22-16 06:37 PM
  15. markmall's Avatar
    But if Ford recognized it was losing huge dollars on building cars, and determined that they excelled at infotainment systems, they wouldn't need all those people anymore.
    What you don't understand is that in businesses as big as Ford -- and arguably former BlackBerry -- you don't panic and sell everything because things are not profitable at the moment. Maybe you suffer losses of $1B but the industry is about to turn around and you can make $100B over the next 50 years. You don't say, "OK, it was fun building cars for the last 100 years but this business is tough! Let's just keep our high pressure water hoses and run a profitable car wash business. That is predictable income! We can sell candybars at the cash register!"



    Posted via CB10
    07-22-16 11:02 PM
  16. markmall's Avatar
    Stickers? LOL.
    Chen already thought of this. He must be hiding that cash in the company vault.

    Posted via CB10
    07-22-16 11:05 PM
  17. Sairos's Avatar
    If Blackberry's image was looking to be the "secure" mobile solution, from my standpoint, they should have sided with Apple, or better yet, not say anything.
    Nah, They can't side with Apple.. BlackBerry has a lot of Business with the american government.. They're one of the most important clients for BB.. So siding with apple and/or criticizing any organization from the US Gov is bad for business.. However I think, like you mentioned, they should have said nothing.. because if you don't have something nice to say, then just say nothing xD..

    Its bad for business to criticize another company, specially when you're a software company that has Apps/Programs that run on their devices.. But I think you should excuse Chen.. He was never the Good CEO when it comes to that.. Also he really needs a PR course.. If you want my opinion, I think Chen is the kind of CEO you would have behind the doors.. Not out there in the open to talk to the masses and represent the company..
    07-23-16 02:51 AM
  18. conite's Avatar
    What you don't understand is that in businesses as big as Ford -- and arguably former BlackBerry -- you don't panic and sell everything because things are not profitable at the moment. Maybe you suffer losses of $1B but the industry is about to turn around and you can make $100B over the next 50 years. You don't say, "OK, it was fun building cars for the last 100 years but this business is tough! Let's just keep our high pressure water hoses and run a profitable car wash business. That is predictable income! We can sell candybars at the cash register!"



    Posted via CB10
    Except BB10 NEVER made a profit. It lost astonishing amounts of money every single quarter since its release, with absolutely no prospects of recovery.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-23-16 08:25 AM
  19. ohaiguise's Avatar
    BB need to replace the subscription fee of OS7 with some steady income

    How about asking their remaining BBOS customers if they would LIKE a new BBOS handset, and if enough customers say yes, do a limited production run to give them new handsets running BBOS and keep the BIS subscription fees coming in in the process?
    07-23-16 09:14 AM
  20. app_Developer's Avatar
    What you don't understand is that in businesses as big as Ford -- and arguably former BlackBerry -- you don't panic and sell everything because things are not profitable at the moment. Maybe you suffer losses of $1B but the industry is about to turn around and you can make $100B over the next 50 years. You don't say, "OK, it was fun building cars for the last 100 years but this business is tough! Let's just keep our high pressure water hoses and run a profitable car wash business. That is predictable income! We can sell candybars at the cash register!"
    So first, BB was down to it's last $1.5B. Losing hundreds of millions per quarter, when you have just 1.5 left is crazy. At that point you have to change course or the company dies. That's not panic, that's reality.

    Imagine you had a small business with $1.5M in cash and you were losing 400-500k (sometime more!) per quarter and demand for your product was dropping at an alarming rate. What would you do?

    And remember this was not losses for one quarter, or even one year. This was sustained over a few years. It wasn't just a profitability problem either, it was massive falls in demand at the same time. If Ford saw a 90% reduction in demand for their cars, they would most certainly think about a different business.

    And no, the industry is not recovering. It has becoming commoditized, making it very difficult for companies like BlackBerry and Apple to compete. The future of handsets is a flood of cheap Android devices coming out of China. Apple will have to adjust to this also over the next few years. BlackBerry has to do it immediately because they don't have the brand that Apple has or the cash that Apple has. That's the reality Chen faces.
    Last edited by app_Developer; 07-23-16 at 10:15 AM.
    DrBoomBotz and JeepBB like this.
    07-23-16 09:27 AM
  21. markmall's Avatar
    So first, BB was down to it's last $1.5B. Losing hundreds of millions per quarter, when you have just 1.5 left is crazy. At that point you have to change course or the company dies. That's not panic, that's reality.
    Thank you for a substantive response.

    I am not saying that you don't have to restructure and take many of the steps that Chen took. Many of his methods of downsizing are not controversial. Sale-leasebacks on the real property. Firing a lot of the staff. Etc., etc.

    At some point, the cuts can take away options or damage future prospects of the company. I think he cut too far.

    The money Chen spent on acquisitions was considerable. I have estimated over $1B based on reports, but I don't know if anyone knows for certain. If Chen "had" to release any BB10 devices -- as Conite, I think, has said in another thread -- he should have given these devices -- especially Z30, Passport and Classic -- a chance to succeed by investing $100M or so in marketing. They had no chance to succeed. The public did not know about them. Zero chance. Fact. Zero chance. This is a fact. People don't know, people can't buy. Fact.

    Imagine you had a small business with $1.5M in cash and you were losing 400-500k (sometime more!) per quarter and demand for your product was dropping at an alarming rate. What would you do?
    Chen made his cuts. The hemorrhaging cash was overhead – not marketing efforts. After Chen made his cuts, he had the best and most stable mobile OS in the world for business. And he still had decent runtime functionality.

    And remember this was not losses for one quarter, or even one year. This was sustained over a few years. It wasn't just a profitability problem either, it was massive falls in demand at the same time. If Ford saw a 90% reduction in demand for their cars, they would most certainly think about a different business.
    They lost $500M a quarter for multiple years? Maybe, but I don't remember that. Once Prem Watsa's people came in with their financing, Blackberry had the capital it needed to properly market its phones. It did not need $1B to do this.

    Also, if Ford saw a drop of 90-percent it would know that something was very wrong with its product. This is because it has competent marketing executives that make sure that the public knows what Ford sells. Ford has a distribution network. Consumers know that Ford exists and that its products exist.

    Blackberry's biggest problem after BB10 matured and the Z30 and Passport were on the market was not that it's product had brake failures or engines that blew up. It's problem was that people thought it went out of business and had no idea what its new operating system could do. They had no way of testing the phones if they heard through the grapevine that they existed. After taking over, Chen spent no marketing efforts on reversing the reports that Blackberry was going out of business or that it would stop making phones. To this day, this silence hurts Blackberry.

    And no, the industry is not recovering. It has becoming commoditized, making it very difficult for companies like BlackBerry and Apple to compete. The future of handsets is a flood of cheap Android devices coming out of China. Apple will have to adjust to this also over the next few years. BlackBerry has to do it immediately because they don't have the brand that Apple has or the cash that Apple has. That's the reality Chen faces.
    There seem to be enough people with money to fund the premium handset market. I think Apple will be doing fine for decades to come. It will continue to sell premium smartphones no matter what trinkets come out of China or where ever. This is because -- like Blackberry before -- Apple combines a clean operating system with it's own hardware which makes for a better, more reliable user experience.

    When Apple was getting crushed in the PC market in the 1990s, it could have given up PCs. It didn't give up and was rewarded for it. Sometimes giving up and retreating is the best strategy. Sometimes it isn't.
    07-23-16 09:55 PM
  22. app_Developer's Avatar
    I am not saying that you don't have to restructure and take many of the steps that Chen took. Many of his methods of downsizing are not controversial. Sale-leasebacks on the real property. Firing a lot of the staff. Etc., etc.

    At some point, the cuts can take away options or damage future prospects of the company. I think he cut too far.
    By too far, do you mean cutting out almost all of the BB10 staff? I think he did this because he lost faith in BB10. Or maybe he didn't have any to begin with.

    The money Chen spent on acquisitions was considerable. I have estimated over $1B based on reports, but I don't know if anyone knows for certain.
    Whoa, I don't know where you get to $1B. Good was the only company of any substantial size, and that was $425. The others were all much, much smaller companies. $1B seems quite a stretch to me.

    If Chen "had" to release any BB10 devices -- as Conite, I think, has said in another thread -- he should have given these devices -- especially Z30, Passport and Classic -- a chance to succeed by investing $100M or so in marketing. They had no chance to succeed. The public did not know about them. Zero chance. Fact. Zero chance. This is a fact. People don't know, people can't buy. Fact.
    How much did they spend in advertising last year? I bet it was $100M or more.

    $100M is not very much in the consumer ad space. They could have easily spent that and more and not gotten that much attention.

    But what does that mean for the device costs? If they sold 5M devices (net returns), that means $20 per device. If they managed to sell 2M then you're looking at a ridiculous $50 per device. Apple spends quite bit less on advertising on a per device basis.

    Now noticed I said net the returns. That's where you and I probably differ. I think most people who would have bought BB10 phones because of increased advertising would have returned them anyway. They would have found this site or other tip sites, saw that you have to install Cobalt this and workaround that, and done what most normal people would do and just return the thing.

    It takes a phone fan like you or me to even bother trying to figure out who this Cobalt is.

    Once Prem Watsa's people came in with their financing, Blackberry had the capital it needed to properly market its phones. It did not need $1B to do this.
    Actually, it is more expensive than you think. Because most people buy things that are actually in stock. If BB had increased their ad spend, then they would also have had to increase their inventory in channel. There is no way to avoid that cost, and they absolutely go hand in hand (ad spending and inventory). That is how this runs into the billions very quickly. (See the Z10 for an example of this)

    Also, if Ford saw a drop of 90-percent it would know that something was very wrong with its product. This is because it has competent marketing executives that make sure that the public knows what Ford sells. Ford has a distribution network. Consumers know that Ford exists and that its products exist.
    BlackBerry does not have a distribution network. And it can't have one, because it can't afford to even make enough phones to keep channels full. And it certainly can't afford the staff to go around and train sales staff or make sure the BB displays are up to snuff at thousands of phone outlets and big box stores.

    I would say Chen did look at the massive drop in demand and he actually did conclude (correctly) that there was something very wrong with his products. That why he moved money away from BB10.

    There seem to be enough people with money to fund the premium handset market. I think Apple will be doing fine for decades to come. It will continue to sell premium smartphones no matter what trinkets come out of China or where ever. This is because -- like Blackberry before -- Apple combines a clean operating system with it's own hardware which makes for a better, more reliable user experience.
    We'll see what happens to Apple. I think their phone business will shrink over the next few years. They are a few years behind BB in that cycle. Let's see what the iPhone sales are like in 2020.

    When Apple was getting crushed in the PC market in the 1990s, it could have given up PCs. It didn't give up and was rewarded for it. Sometimes giving up and retreating is the best strategy. Sometimes it isn't.
    If not for Adobe CS, MS Office and some speciality music tools, the Mac would have died and Apple would have given up. The Mac held onto to just enough important apps to survive. BB10 hasn't held onto any interesting apps.

    Imagine if artists and designers couldn't run Photoshop on their Macs. Or if you couldn't edit a Powerpoint on one. GIMP and Open Office wouldn't have cut it. People really do want the real thing.

    I'm on a Mac right now. If I didn't have official, no kidding, no BS workarounds, distributions of Go and Docker, I would put this thing in a drawer and buy a PC. The only reason I can use a Mac in reality is because of developer support.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-23-16 11:16 PM
  23. hoytbowhunter's Avatar
    Killing Blackberry? If by Killing Blackberry you mean restructuring so that the company is actually moving up and finally making money instead of after years of hemorhaging money under other management, then sure.
    Exactly! I think Chen is doing greats, he's making money and I'm getting my BlackBerry Phones. I couldn't be happier!.

    Posted via CB10
    07-23-16 11:19 PM
  24. Invictus0's Avatar
    The money Chen spent on acquisitions was considerable. I have estimated over $1B based on reports, but I don't know if anyone knows for certain. If Chen "had" to release any BB10 devices -- as Conite, I think, has said in another thread -- he should have given these devices -- especially Z30, Passport and Classic -- a chance to succeed by investing $100M or so in marketing. They had no chance to succeed. The public did not know about them. Zero chance. Fact. Zero chance. This is a fact. People don't know, people can't buy. Fact.
    If it's a fact, you should be able to link to some data to prove it? BlackBerry had actually hired a new ad company to market the Passport for them,

    BlackBerry Taps B-toB Agency Gyro to Remake Its Brand | Agency News - AdAge

    They lost $500M a quarter for multiple years? Maybe, but I don't remember that.
    I don't know about previous years but post BB10 launch they lost quite a bit for a few quarters,

    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/21/te...huge-loss.html

    Once Prem Watsa's people came in with their financing, Blackberry had the capital it needed to properly market its phones. It did not need $1B to do this.

    Also, if Ford saw a drop of 90-percent it would know that something was very wrong with its product. This is because it has competent marketing executives that make sure that the public knows what Ford sells. Ford has a distribution network. Consumers know that Ford exists and that its products exist.

    Blackberry's biggest problem after BB10 matured and the Z30 and Passport were on the market was not that it's product had brake failures or engines that blew up. It's problem was that people thought it went out of business and had no idea what its new operating system could do. They had no way of testing the phones if they heard through the grapevine that they existed. After taking over, Chen spent no marketing efforts on reversing the reports that Blackberry was going out of business or that it would stop making phones. To this day, this silence hurts Blackberry.
    They didn't need Prem's investment to market the devices, it's estimated that BB10's launch marketing budget was more than $200 million, and that's likely not including money spent on developer programs and other efforts to get people interested in the OS.

    http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.co...-new-campaign/

    At the very least if they weren't able to generate brand awareness among consumers with this big of a spend, as you said, the problem might be the product.
    07-23-16 11:25 PM
  25. Jerry A's Avatar
    Thank you for a substantive response.

    I am not saying that you don't have to restructure and take many of the steps that Chen took. Many of his methods of downsizing are not controversial. Sale-leasebacks on the real property. Firing a lot of the staff. Etc., etc.

    At some point, the cuts can take away options or damage future prospects of the company. I think he cut too far.

    The money Chen spent on acquisitions was considerable. I have estimated over $1B based on reports, but I don't know if anyone knows for certain. If Chen "had" to release any BB10 devices -- as Conite, I think, has said in another thread -- he should have given these devices -- especially Z30, Passport and Classic -- a chance to succeed by investing $100M or so in marketing. They had no chance to succeed. The public did not know about them. Zero chance. Fact. Zero chance. This is a fact. People don't know, people can't buy. Fact.



    Chen made his cuts. The hemorrhaging cash was overhead not marketing efforts. After Chen made his cuts, he had the best and most stable mobile OS in the world for business. And he still had decent runtime functionality.



    They lost $500M a quarter for multiple years? Maybe, but I don't remember that. Once Prem Watsa's people came in with their financing, Blackberry had the capital it needed to properly market its phones. It did not need $1B to do this.

    Also, if Ford saw a drop of 90-percent it would know that something was very wrong with its product. This is because it has competent marketing executives that make sure that the public knows what Ford sells. Ford has a distribution network. Consumers know that Ford exists and that its products exist.

    Blackberry's biggest problem after BB10 matured and the Z30 and Passport were on the market was not that it's product had brake failures or engines that blew up. It's problem was that people thought it went out of business and had no idea what its new operating system could do. They had no way of testing the phones if they heard through the grapevine that they existed. After taking over, Chen spent no marketing efforts on reversing the reports that Blackberry was going out of business or that it would stop making phones. To this day, this silence hurts Blackberry.



    There seem to be enough people with money to fund the premium handset market. I think Apple will be doing fine for decades to come. It will continue to sell premium smartphones no matter what trinkets come out of China or where ever. This is because -- like Blackberry before -- Apple combines a clean operating system with it's own hardware which makes for a better, more reliable user experience.

    When Apple was getting crushed in the PC market in the 1990s, it could have given up PCs. It didn't give up and was rewarded for it. Sometimes giving up and retreating is the best strategy. Sometimes it isn't.
    You take for granted what the average consumer wants from a smartphone. No amount of marketing is going to make someone give up Instagram, Netflix, check deposits, whatever if that's what they want from a phone.

    No amount of marketing is going to change that. It's not how marketing works.

    Marketing doesn't make people buy something that absolutely doesn't meet their needs. If that were the case then everyone around here would have iPhones.

    As for the Mac, they pretty much gave up the market in the mid-90s and started licensing MacOS to third parties instead of making hardware. And it was disastrous for them. But not as disastrous as their in-house hardware sales at the time.

    But even scraping by they were still the No. 2 desktop OS. Of course, that market only has two players - so it's nothing like BlackBerry's situation. Apple just needed to stay relevant and profitable enough to keep desktops from becoming a 1-horse race - basically growing from 5% of desktop/laptop sales back to 8%.
    JeepBB and TgeekB like this.
    07-24-16 01:52 AM
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