09-03-16 08:29 AM
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  1. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    What I mean is Chen is criticizing Apple's end to end encryption when BB also has end to end encryption.

    If BB is served a subpoena for BES messages, they cannot decrypt those. That makes BB's position exactly the same as Apple's.

    So what exactly is Chen criticizing Apple for again?
    Communications over BES are not end to end encryption. They're encrypted from sender to server, then server to recipient. If a law enforcement agency needs to serve a subpoena to the responsible party of a BES server, then they will be serving it to the owning entity of the BES server (ie.. a company/corporation running their own BES server), not BBRY. And that entity can indeed provide the information. It's not end-to-end encryption via BES. A company that issues BB devices to employees (or connects employee provided devices) can see every BBM message coming and going in all it's plain text glory. That's the whole point of BES, it allows companies to monitor what their employees are doing with company data. End to end encryption would defeat the whole purpose of BES.

    BBRY only holds reign over BIS. And they have provided private BBM messages sent via BBM over BIS when law enforcement has served them subpoenas.
    07-20-16 06:59 PM
  2. conite's Avatar
    Communications over BES are not end to end encryption. They're encrypted from sender to server, then server to recipient. If a law enforcement agency needs to serve a subpoena to the responsible party of a BES server, then they will be serving it to the owning entity of the BES server (ie.. a company/corporation running their own BES server), not BBRY. And that entity can indeed provide the information. It's not end-to-end encryption via BES. A company that issues BB devices to employees (or connects employee provided devices) can see every BBM message coming and going in all it's plain text glory. That's the whole point of BES, it allows companies to monitor what their employees are doing with company data. End to end encryption would defeat the whole purpose of BES.

    BBRY only holds reign over BIS. And they have provided private BBM messages sent via BBM over BIS when law enforcement has served them subpoenas.
    We can't ignore bbm protected though.
    light_barer likes this.
    07-20-16 07:03 PM
  3. app_Developer's Avatar
    Communications over BES are not end to end encryption. They're encrypted from sender to server, then server to recipient. If a law enforcement agency needs to serve a subpoena to the responsible party of a BES server, then they will be serving it to the owning entity of the BES server (ie.. a company/corporation running their own BES server), not BBRY. And that entity can indeed provide the information. It's not end-to-end encryption via BES. A company that issues BB devices to employees (or connects employee provided devices) can see every BBM message coming and going in all it's plain text glory. That's the whole point of BES, it allows companies to monitor what their employees are doing with company data. End to end encryption would defeat the whole purpose of BES.

    BBRY only holds reign over BIS. And they have provided private BBM messages sent via BBM over BIS when law enforcement has served them subpoenas.
    Ah, good point, I see.

    So is Chen criticizing end to end encryption, then? What is he saying Apple should do?
    07-20-16 07:07 PM
  4. Sairos's Avatar
    Chen, or anyone else in his place, will never build you another BB10 device
    Not a Crazy BB10 Fan.. But then I thought they never ruled it out?.. There is even a thread about it in the home page.. "BlackBerry has not ruled out another BlackBerry 10 device".. That's the title of the thread.. But I'm sure you know about it..

    The Odds are slim, but don't you think its a little misleading to say they will never build one when they denied so..
    07-20-16 07:09 PM
  5. Sairos's Avatar
    There must be some kind of irony award for using a security summit to attack the use of strong encryption, and*BlackBerry*CEO John Chen seems determined to win it. Speaking at the BlackBerry Security Summit, Chen said that he is ‘disturbed’ by Apple’s decision to work hard to keep its devices and messaging services secure, reports*Patently Apple.
    This tweet and the whole thing is a little weird, because he didn't attack the strong encryption.. He attacked the fact that they refused to give access to the FBI.. When mentioning something, lets say the whole story.. No cherry picking please xD.. Now on to everything he said regarding this:

    "One of our competitors, we call it 'the other fruit company', has an attitude that it doesn’t matter how much it might hurt society, they’re not going to help,"

    "I found that disturbing as a citizen. I think BlackBerry, like any company, should have a basic civil responsibility. If the world is in danger, we should be able to help out."

    "Of course, there need to be clear guidelines. The guidelines we've adopted require legal assets. A subpoena for certain data. But if you have the data, you should give it to them,"

    "There’s some complete nonsense about what we can and can’t do. People are mad at us that we let the government have the data. It’s absolute garbage. We can’t do that."

    "There's proposed legislation in the US, and I'm sure it will come to the EU, that every vendor needs to provide some form of a back door. That is not going to fly at all. It just isn't,"
    07-20-16 07:12 PM
  6. app_Developer's Avatar
    This tweet and the whole thing is a little weird, because he didn't attack the strong encryption.. He attacked the fact that they refused to give access to the FBI..
    But if you have secure end to end encryption you can't provide access to law enforcement, right?

    Well, not without making a backdoor, which he also seems to oppose. And which makes the system not as secure.

    So what is Chen saying exactly?
    07-20-16 07:18 PM
  7. Sairos's Avatar
    But if you have secure end to end encryption you can't provide access to law enforcement, right?

    Well, not without making a backdoor, which he also seems to oppose. And which makes the system not as secure.

    So what is Chen saying exactly?
    I've no experience regarding security.. So I don't know if you can give access without making a backdoor... You will find a line in the article: "Chen warned that mandatory back doors aren't a good idea either."..

    Check the article for a clearer idea:

    BlackBerry CEO 'disturbed' by Apple's hard line on encryption | TheINQUIRER
    07-20-16 07:28 PM
  8. app_Developer's Avatar
    I've no experience regarding security.. So I don't know if you can give access without making a backdoor... You will find a line in the article: "Chen warned that mandatory back doors aren't a good idea either."..

    Check the article for a clearer idea:

    BlackBerry CEO 'disturbed' by Apple's hard line on encryption | TheINQUIRER
    I've read that Inquirer article and I still don't understand what Chen is saying. He's saying Apple should decrypt and share user's messages with LE under subpoena. He's also saying no backdoors.

    So he's contradicting himself, isn't he?

    And why is he even saying any of this? What advantage does this give BB? Why draw attention to the fact that Apple actually can't read their user's messages? Isn't that rather foolish?
    07-20-16 07:36 PM
  9. Sairos's Avatar
    I've read that Inquirer article and I still don't understand what Chen is saying. He's saying Apple should decrypt and share user's messages with LE under subpoena. He's also saying no backdoors.

    So he's contradicting himself, isn't he?

    And why is he even saying any of this? What advantage does this give BB? Why draw attention to the fact that Apple actually can't read their user's messages? Isn't that rather foolish?
    Well, I think he wants to be the one creating the backdoor and then handing out the information.. He said mandatory back doors are no good.. He was discussing a law that's being proposed that will force the phones manufactures to create a back door, hence the "Mandatory back doors" remark.. He is against being forced to create back doors.. That's just my take on it..

    I agree.. Its no good taking a swipe at other companies.. Specially now that BlackBerry supports other platforms like iOS.. In Business, what he is doing is unprofessional.. But I just wanted to point out that he is not attacking the strong encryption itself but rather the fact that they refused to co-operate and give access to the authorities when it comes to criminals.
    07-20-16 07:42 PM
  10. IJKBB10's Avatar
    When it comes to turning around BlackBerry after he inherited the mess from TH he has done an amazing job bringing BlackBerry back as a software company. Making good acquisitions of other security software companies to enhance their security solutions offerings is just simply outstanding giving them new revenue to generate!!!

    I'll admit he did screw up with the BB10 OS and especially with their first Android debut with a ridiculous name for a phone and a even more ridiculous price!!!

    And no marketing whatsoever for their Android debut to inform consumers BlackBerry has a phone running Android with some of their custom software added!!!

    Posted via CB10
    Sairos likes this.
    07-20-16 07:53 PM
  11. Adif_701's Avatar
    I disagree. Chen is doing what he was brought in to do. Move BlackBerry to more of a software/security company. Hand sets are secondary. I am ok with that as long as they keep making phones. I think he is steering the company in the right direction.

    Posted via CB10
    07-20-16 07:55 PM
  12. conite's Avatar
    I've read that Inquirer article and I still don't understand what Chen is saying. He's saying Apple should decrypt and share user's messages with LE under subpoena. He's also saying no backdoors.

    So he's contradicting himself, isn't he?
    I think he is suggesting a backdoor that only BlackBerry controls. He's not simply going to hand the keys over to the government.

    But then there is BBM Protected again that muddies the water.
    07-20-16 07:59 PM
  13. Sairos's Avatar
    When it comes to turning around BlackBerry after he inherited the mess from TH he has done an amazing job bringing BlackBerry back as a software company. Making good acquisitions of other security software companies to enhance their security solutions offerings is just simply outstanding giving them new revenue to generate!!!

    I'll admit he did screw up with the BB10 OS and especially with their first Android debut with a ridiculous name for a phone and a even more ridiculous price!!!

    And no marketing whatsoever for their Android debut to inform consumers BlackBerry has a phone running Android with some of their custom software added!!!

    Posted via CB10
    Yes you pointed out the good and the bad.. He has done great when it comes to turning around the company.. But he hasn't done so well in handling the Priv.. That was critical because it was the first android device.. The hype was immense and BlackBerry couldn't afford to get it wrong yet they did..

    Simply put, Chen is a software guy, not a hardware guy .. I've said this before.. Someone else in this company needs to handle the hardware and take the important decisions.. Which I think is happening right now.. I read somewhere that's in the last security summit when asked about devices lately he said further questions should be Asked to Ralph.. He is throwing questions about hardware to other people now, so I think he is taking a break from it and letting the hardware guys do the work.. Also remember the mobility solutions units they created.. It further proves this.

    (Update) He said the following in the recent security summit:

    Chen caused panic among journalists in attendance with the remark that "this might be the last time you'll hear me talk about devices", but he later clarified that this is because his colleague, BlackBerry general manager Ralph Pini, will reveal more details about the company's smartphone plans next week.
    Last edited by Sairos; 07-20-16 at 09:15 PM. Reason: Adding a citation
    07-20-16 08:00 PM
  14. conite's Avatar

    The Odds are slim, but don't you think its a little misleading to say they will never build one when they denied so..
    There is also a quantifiable mathematical probability that a fully formed Cuisinart is orbiting Jupiter due to quantum effects. I feel confident to say there isn't one, but I leave a little room for error.

    This is just another "we are committed to BB10" statement.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-20-16 08:07 PM
  15. Jerry A's Avatar
    But if you have secure end to end encryption you can't provide access to law enforcement, right?

    Well, not without making a backdoor, which he also seems to oppose. And which makes the system not as secure.

    So what is Chen saying exactly?
    That you don't need a back door when you've already handed over the keys to the front door?

    But it's just more smoke and mirrors on his part so BlackBerry doesn't lose privacy-focused customers.

    Both companies respond to legal warrants/subpoenas/NSLs/etc. when possible. In the case of Apple that means iCloud data and older iPhones.

    For BlackBerry, it's almost everything (BBM Protected being the exception).

    He's tossing some serious shade so people don't peek too closely at BlackBerry's limitations.

    And y'all say that BlackBerry doesn't know how to do marketing.
    JeepBB likes this.
    07-20-16 08:13 PM
  16. TGR1's Avatar
    I didn't get what Chen meant either. Is he criticizing pursuing strong encryption or not acceding to LEO? If the latter, Apple followed US law. They were served a warrant, exercised their right to go to court on the grounds they considered the warrant unlawful or unduly onerous. They had also provided copies of files they were able to access so it wasn't as if they completely refused. They have also helped in other cases as well. It is how I would hope BBRY would react rather than fling over info willy nilly. For private individuals too, not just big Corp.
    Elephant_Canyon likes this.
    07-20-16 08:16 PM
  17. Sairos's Avatar
    There is also a quantifiable mathematical probability that a fully formed Cuisinart is orbiting Jupiter due to quantum effects. I feel confident to say there isn't one, but I leave a little room for error.

    This is just another "we are committed to BB10" statement.
    They didn't rule it out.. So the whole "Never build another BB10 one" is just an opinion and not a fact.. As an ambassador, your role is to make good informative posts, which you do really.. Great posts actually.. But I think you should've mentioned that you think they'll never build one although they didn't rule it out.. Separating the opinion from the fact is a good thing.. You owe people here that much because you're part of the staff here..

    Never = Impossible or won't happen.. It doesn't leave a little room for error.. And we don't know that, they even denied that..

    Regarding the "Cuisinart, Jupiter & quantifiable mathematical probability" example to the relation of a BB10 device.. That's a reach mate xD.. Its a phone.. We're don't discussing astronomy here.. Just a bunch of phones xD.
    07-20-16 08:26 PM
  18. conite's Avatar
    They didn't rule it out.. So the whole "Never build another BB10 one" is just an opinion and not a fact.. As an ambassador, your role is to make good informative posts, which you do really.. Great posts actually.. But I think you should've mentioned that you think they'll never build one although they didn't rule it out.. Separating the opinion from the fact is a good thing.. You owe people here that much because you're part of the staff here..

    Never = Impossible or won't happen.. It doesn't leave a little room for error.. And we don't know that, they even denied that..

    Regarding the "Cuisinart, Jupiter & quantifiable mathematical probability" example to the relation of a BB10 device.. That's a reach mate xD.. Its a phone.. We're don't discussing astronomy here.. Just a bunch of phones xD.
    Very well. I retract my statement and replace it with this:

    It is extraordinarily, super-duper improbable that BlackBerry will ever produce another BB10 device for the consumer.

    Particularly after Chen explicitly stated that he will not make a BB10 device in 2016, and that he will completely close the security gap between his secured-android Nougat device and BB10 within 6 to 8 months.

    Priv STV100-1 AAF518 / Q5SQR100-1/10.3.3.746
    Last edited by conite; 07-20-16 at 09:24 PM.
    07-20-16 08:45 PM
  19. Sairos's Avatar
    Very well. I retract my statement and replace it with this:

    It is extraordinarily, super-duper improbable that BlackBerry will ever produce another BB10 device for the consumer.

    Particularly after Chen explicitly stated that he will not make a BB10 device in 2017, and that he will completely close the security gap between his secured-android Nougat device and BB10 within 6 to 8 months.

    Priv STV100-1 AAF518 / Q5SQR100-1/10.3.3.746
    Great, that's more like it :P

    I've a question though, When did he say he won't make BB10 devices in 2017, I read about only making Android devices in 2016, it was an interview with CNET.. Not questioning the matter, just want to read about it for more info.
    07-20-16 08:52 PM
  20. nohope4me's Avatar
    Chen really needs to work on his communication skills or let someone else with the right skills deliver the message. He alone inspires zero confidence and botch the message. Let him continue down the path of "the Google" and see where he lands.
    Nikola Stojic likes this.
    07-20-16 09:16 PM
  21. conite's Avatar
    Great, that's more like it
    I've a question though, When did he say he won't make BB10 devices in 2017, I read about only making Android devices in 2016, it was an interview with CNET.. Not questioning the matter, just want to read about it for more info.
    You responded before I fixed my typo. 2016.
    IndianTiwari likes this.
    07-20-16 09:25 PM
  22. IndianTiwari's Avatar
    In layman language JC inherited the company almost on as is where is basis . He has only tried to bring the system to normalcy even if it means deviating from BB10 . I am a huge BB10 fan and will always prefer BB10 to android . Having said that , JC had limited options in front of him and he has taken the best foot forward to save Blackberry.
    Last edited by IndianTiwari; 07-21-16 at 04:17 AM.
    app_Developer and Karan Riar like this.
    07-21-16 01:29 AM
  23. ohaiguise's Avatar
    Killing Blackberry? If by Killing Blackberry you mean restructuring so that the company is actually moving up and finally making money instead of after years of hemorhaging money under other management, then sure.
    If by 'restructuring' you mean firing so many people that costs come down low enough to compensate for falling revenue LULZ
    dolco likes this.
    07-21-16 02:30 AM
  24. app_Developer's Avatar
    If by 'restructuring' you mean firing so many people that costs come down low enough to compensate for falling revenue LULZ
    And set the company for a soft landing, to borrow his phrase, into a smaller, but growing, software business.

    I think that was the best option available to him.

    I just wish he would hire and trust someone good to advise him on communications.
    07-21-16 04:46 AM
  25. bakron1's Avatar
    As a long time Blackberry user, I feel Chen is not killing Blackberry at all. That was done years ago when the founding fathers failed to see the market change and fell into complacency. Being here from the USA, I have seen the brand all but disappear from the landscape and this has nothing to do with Mr Chen.

    I personally feel if it wasn't for Mr Chen taking over and rebuilding the company, they would have went the way of the dodo bird. I would rather have the company still be around developing software then the alternative. Just my two cents.
    07-21-16 05:52 AM
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