[Nine54]

When I hold a device like the Blackberry Classic, I can't help but feel that devices like this should continue to be made...the PBK, the professional yet modern design, the solid and weighty build quality... If Blackberry exits the hardware market, there will be a void.

Now, I'm well aware that the market for Blackberry hardware--or, more generally PBK hardware--is small and will never rival the market for all-touch devices. And I understand that Blackberry needs its hardware division to be profitable for it to remain a viable business. But when I come on Crackberry and see the passion and enthusiasm for Blackberry devices, I can't help but think there still is a market for PBK devices. Yes, this is a fan site and Blackberry has some rabidly loyal fans who are not representative of general consumers, but companies would kill for the level of passion and engagement shown by Blackberry fans. And most of these fans are not even in Blackberry's target market of enterprise/government users!

Given the commoditization of mobile hardware and how cheaply devices can be made using off-the-shelf components and contract manufacturing, I can't help but wonder why no one else is attempting to capitalize on this passion and take advantage of the fact that Blackberry's commitment to hardware remains ambiguous. Why hasn't anyone else developed a true Android-based PBK challenger to Blackberry? Since it would run Android and be built by a contract manufacturer, the OS and hardware development overhead would be low. No, the company wouldn't sell 100 million devices in a single quarter, but I don't think it needs to sell anywhere near that in order to be profitable given the relatively low overhead.

Now before folks chime in to say why this isn't viable, let me ask this a different way: what is the viability of the Nextbit Robin? Or the Obi Worldphone? Or Jolla/Sailfish-based devices? It seems like a new Android OEM pops up every other week, often with the same business plan around targeting "emerging markets." The world doesn't need a hundred OEMs making budget smartphones, especially since established players like Samsung, Xiaomi, and Hauwei already are targeting emerging markets. And market data suggests that most of these OEM endeavors will not be successful since the aforementioned players earn the majority of Android smartphone profits.

So what gives here? How is the business plan for the Nextbit Robin viable while the business plan for a PBK device isn't? I've never heard anyone say they want a "cloud-based Android phone." Yet, plenty of people on here say they want PBK devices. Why isn't anyone stepping in to address this niche? Or better yet, why hasn't a former Blackberry exec started a company addressing this? It's a little odd that Blackberry has had such a talent drain over the past few years, yet you never hear of any former employees/executives forming startups targeting various the niches or businesses is that Blackberry is in...

[anon(9721108)]

Interesting post. Feel free to say "HEY" in the 9900/9900 forum, we can talk hours about this topic

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[Drenegade]

It's a wide open market. BlackBerry needs to own it.

Posted via CB10

[Nine54]

Interesting post. Feel free to say "HEY" in the 9900/9900 forum, we can talk hours about this topic

Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

Ha, will do! There's a pattern on the forums: someone posts a thread extolling the virtues of Blackberry hardware and offering ideas for future devices that will reverse Blackberry's fortunes. Then, folks weigh in with many arguing why PBK hardware isn't really viable and why Blackberry's software-centric model is the only way forward.

Regardless of the merits of these respective arguments, the fact that we keep having this discussion on here says something. In other words, where there's smoke there's fire, as the saying goes, or at least, that's what I'm suggesting.

Posted via CB10

[anon(9721108)]

Ha, will do! There's a pattern on the forums: someone posts a thread extolling the virtues of Blackberry hardware and offering ideas for future devices that will reverse Blackberry's fortunes. Then, folks weigh in with many arguing why PBK hardware isn't really viable and why Blackberry's software-centric model is the only way forward.

Regardless of the merits of these respective arguments, the fact that we keep having this discussion on here says something. In other words, where there's smoke there's fire, as the saying goes, or at least, that's what I'm suggesting.

Posted via CB10

I just think those who cannot appreciate the PKB, is to deny Blackberry's history and what made the company what they are today. Basically if they cannot appreciate Blackberry's history, they they have no intentions of respecting their future.

[anon(9721108)]

Of course also, many who diss the PKB have also never had one. Or they had one for a short time and never gave it much of a chance.

Considering that laptops and other serious devices for productive purposes are still some form of PKB, should speak volumes to people.

There may not be a "one device for all" tasks, but people need to appreciate the PKB fills a niche, no matter how large of small.

[anon(9721108)]

I remember wishing Blackberry had used something like this, I think it would be the "gimmick" that would have got people into the Blackberry outlets and revitalized the company. They should have jumped on it. All it takes is a "gimmick" to get people talking, into the outlets and if it is "cool" and unique enough it will sell.....

https://www.cnet.com/news/a-keyboard...touch-screens/



Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[Nine54]

I remember wishing Blackberry had used something like this, I think it would be the "gimmick" that would have got people into the Blackberry outlets and revitalized the company. They should have jumped on it. All it takes is a "gimmick" to get people talking, into the outlets and if it is "cool" and unique enough it will sell.....

https://www.cnet.com/news/a-keyboard...touch-screens/



Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

Ha, I remember that... Whether whatever it produced was gimmicky or not, Blackberry definitely needed to innovate more. I think the capacitive keyboard on the Passport is a great example of that. Where was that years ago?

[Old_Mil]

So after using an iPhone 4, Z10, Z30, Blackphone BP2, and Lumia 820 I am back to using a Q10. The nature of how I use my phone has chnaged - lots of primary computer work, posting, emailing, texting, and for use as a primary Internet Hotspot with a Playbook and no home based backup.

The physical keyboard is excellent for this type of thing. However, I have to admit that the loss of screen real estate hurts the phone when it comes to reading websites and consuming multimedia content.

For the way I use a phone currently, this works very well. The only device I could see replacing it would be a Passport. The Priv wouldn't because of the slider mechanism makes access to the keyboard more complicated and the form factor with it deployed is less convenient.

If what I used the phone for changed (less texting, more video calls, less posting, more apps) the physical keyboard would probably lose its appeal...

Posted via CB10

[medic22003]

Of course also, many who diss the PKB have also never had one. Or they had one for a short time and never gave it much of a chance.

Considering that laptops and other serious devices for productive purposes are still some form of PKB, should speak volumes to people.

There may not be a "one device for all" tasks, but people need to appreciate the PKB fills a niche, no matter how large of small.

I never dissed the pkb but really didn't see the need. Since having my priv I prefer it over the vkb. BlackBerry has a killer vkb and it'd the best I've ever used but the pkb is better when you have a lot to say

Posted with my shiny new Priv

[Troy Tiscareno]

Now before folks chime in to say why this isn't viable, let me ask this a different way: what is the viability of the Nextbit Robin? Or the Obi Worldphone? Or Jolla/Sailfish-based devices? It seems like a new Android OEM pops up every other week, often with the same business plan around targeting "emerging markets." The world doesn't need a hundred OEMs making budget smartphones, especially since established players like Samsung, Xiaomi, and Hauwei already are targeting emerging markets. And market data suggests that most of these OEM endeavors will not be successful since the aforementioned players earn the majority of Android smartphone profits.

That's the thing: the Nexbit Robin and the Obi and the Jolla phones are NOT viable. They will lose their investors' money and will fail. And their customers will largely get screwed with no support (except, really, their customers aren't really expecting much in the way of support).

Here's the difference: these are all very small start-up companies who are spending money from investors who knew from the beginning that they were investing in a very high-risk venture. Those investors often invest in a dozen companies, knowing 11 of them will fail and hoping 1 will do well.

BB is not a startup - it's a mature, publicly traded company that has to operate under very different rules. It has a BoD that can be thrown out by its investors if those investors don't feel that BB is making wise choices with its (or, rather, THEIR) money.

We know that BB's entire slice of marketshare is about 0.2% today - and perhaps half of that is PKB phones. That means BB is making massmarket items (because that's what smartphones are) that target only 0.1% of the market. Even if they own that entire market, it's still only about 1.5M phones per year - and that's always been spread across at least 2 phone models. That's VERY low volume production, and low volume production in the smartphone business means you either need to be able to command a high price per unit (and the whining and gnashing of teeth that even BB's fans make whenever the price of a new phone is announced: "It's too expensive!" "They need to lower the price!" "When will it go on sale?" "I'm waiting for the firesale!") or they are probably going to lose money. And, that's exactly what BB has been doing for the last 5 years: losing money on every phone sold.

Yes, BB's PKB is iconic and probably the best in the business. I get that. I totally understand that fans want to see it continue. From IMO, there is simply no business case to continue PKB phones. Look at the Priv - AT&T bought a bunch, they didn't sell, and AT&T is going to lose a bunch of money (a loss they're probably sharing with BB) by discounting them to get rid of them. The PP and Classic have also been discounted. If there was demand for them, why were those discounts necessary, and why did they take so long to sell out?

A company like Samsung, which is profitable, can afford to serve small niches like PKB-lovers. IMO, BB cannot afford to do so, and their stubbornness is very likely to lead to their exiting hardware entirely.

Again, it's fine to serve a tiny niche IF you can command a premium price for doing so - that's how Porsche and Ferrari stay alive, not through volume - but if you can't command a premium, you're going to lose money - just as BB has continued to do. But they can't continue to do that forever.

[Nine54]

That's the thing: the Nexbit Robin and the Obi and the Jolla phones are NOT viable. They will lose their investors' money and will fail. And their customers will largely get screwed with no support (except, really, their customers aren't really expecting much in the way of support).

Here's the difference: these are all very small start-up companies who are spending money from investors who knew from the beginning that they were investing in a very high-risk venture. Those investors often invest in a dozen companies, knowing 11 of them will fail and hoping 1 will do well.

I don't disagree with anything you said above. My main point was in highlighting the comparative lack of "doom and gloom" around these companies based on their niche appeal. And while some investors do throw money at bad ideas, I at least have to hope that the business plan around these companies doesn't hinge on the fact that the overall Android market is billions of users. That would be reckless investing.

BB is not a startup - it's a mature, publicly traded company that has to operate under very different rules. It has a BoD that can be thrown out by its investors if those investors don't feel that BB is making wise choices with its (or, rather, THEIR) money.

We know that BB's entire slice of marketshare is about 0.2% today - and perhaps half of that is PKB phones. That means BB is making massmarket items (because that's what smartphones are) that target only 0.1% of the market. Even if they own that entire market, it's still only about 1.5M phones per year - and that's always been spread across at least 2 phone models. That's VERY low volume production, and low volume production in the smartphone business means you either need to be able to command a high price per unit (and the whining and gnashing of teeth that even BB's fans make whenever the price of a new phone is announced: "It's too expensive!" "They need to lower the price!" "When will it go on sale?" "I'm waiting for the firesale!") or they are probably going to lose money. And, that's exactly what BB has been doing for the last 5 years: losing money on every phone sold.

Your argument basically boils down to two points: 1. Blackberry, the company, is too big to survive catering to a niche market or, at the least, can't do so as a publicly traded entity; and 2. the small PBK market leads to low manufacturing volume, which necessitates charging luxury prices that the market is unwilling to pay. I'll tackle the first point here and the second below.

I agree with the first point. In fact, someone could argue that as soon as the original iPhone was released, Blackberry/RIM suddenly was oversized as the future market for its devices basically shrunk overnight. The lack of carrier readiness, particularly among international carriers, and cost of data plans gave Blackberry a little more runway at its overgrown size, but the company needed to pivot quickly or else market forces would force it to shrink--which is what ended up happening.

But, as you somewhat suggest below, all this says is that the PBK market is no longer viable for Blackberry; that doesn't mean it can't be viable for a smaller, private company. And again, why hasn't a former executive done just that? Start a company targeting the niche PBK market that Blackberry has left starving? I'm guessing you will say it's due to the manufacturing volume and luxury pricing issue.

Yes, BB's PKB is iconic and probably the best in the business. I get that. I totally understand that fans want to see it continue. From IMO, there is simply no business case to continue PKB phones. Look at the Priv - AT&T bought a bunch, they didn't sell, and AT&T is going to lose a bunch of money (a loss they're probably sharing with BB) by discounting them to get rid of them. The PP and Classic have also been discounted. If there was demand for them, why were those discounts necessary, and why did they take so long to sell out?

With its device lineup, Blackberry has actually been targeting niches within the overall PBK niche. Some Blackberry fans want a PBK and BB 10 OS; others want the PBK, but aren't willing to sacrifice apps and a robust ecosystem. I think it's fair to say that, to date, only those wanting PBK + BB 10 have gotten the iconic BB formfactor (via the Q10, Classic, and PP). Although Blackberry has had sliders in the past, the formfactor isn't really iconic to the brand and always has been less popular that the PBK "qwertybar" designs. Subsequently, I don't think Priv sales are indicative of the PBK market overall. And regarding PP and Classic sales, running BB 10 has made them non-starters.

So, basically, I'm arguing that the PBK market overall has been underserved because the market for a PBK device w/o BB 10 is greater than the market for a PBK device w/ BB 10. And, I think it's reasonable to assume that, though they may be fans of BB 10, PBK diehards will make the jump to Android if Blackberry kills off BB 10--they just a need an iconic PBK device to jump to.

A company like Samsung, which is profitable, can afford to serve small niches like PKB-lovers. IMO, BB cannot afford to do so, and their stubbornness is very likely to lead to their exiting hardware entirely.

Again, it's fine to serve a tiny niche IF you can command a premium price for doing so - that's how Porsche and Ferrari stay alive, not through volume - but if you can't command a premium, you're going to lose money - just as BB has continued to do. But they can't continue to do that forever.

I think that's true in a lot of cases, but I'm not sure if it's true here. To start, Porsche and Ferrari charge premium prices because their audience can afford it and because their cars cost more to build. The price of a Ferrari is higher than the average car, but the component parts are also more expensive than those included in the average car. I think the opposite is true in Blackberry's case. Unlike Samsung and Apple who are using custom/proprietary chips designed in-house (the Exynos and A-series respectively), Blackberry can use off-the-shelf Qualcomm chips. No, it won't benefit from high-volume pricing, but it will save on R&D and other development costs. It's the way other relatively low volume players like OnePlus keep prices down, too.

The other consideration is that the iconic BB qwertybar formfactor is an known entity, a design that's been refined over a decade with a familiar, established manufacturing process. Compare this to Samsung and Apple who want curved displays and fancy finishes (like Apple's new jet black finish), which require exotic materials and/or complicated manufacturing processes. So while Blackberry can make changes and improvements, these do not require the complicated and expensive tooling changes that go with manufacturing a new Galaxy or iPhone model.

Blackberry has complicated their situation by not picking a design and aesthetic and sticking with it: since BB 10, no two phones have looked the same. But if it can settle on the Bold/Classic PBK formfactor and iterate from there, this should remove costs from the supply chain (it can/should do the same for all-touch, but this discussion is about PBK market viability). Plus, components get cheaper as time goes on and the manufacturer gets more efficient, which also lowers costs (i.e., the last device run produced should be cheaper than the first run).

Am I inflating the potential savings from off-the-shelf components and sticking with an established design? Perhaps. But OnePlus doesn't have manufacturing volume compared to Samsung and has managed to undercut Samsung on price without compromising on specs by limiting overhead and marketing costs, both of which Blackberry also could reduce if catering to a niche like PBK.

So, is there a business case for continuing PBK phones? I don't know and I don't think it's a clear-cut case either way. Yes, there is definite downside risk, but too many variables have obscured the potential upside: Blackberry's size and expectations as a public company, its disjointed product lineup, the lengthy gaps between releases, and--perhaps most importantly--the handcuffing of the iconic PBK formfactor to BB 10. Only if/when most, if not all, of these variables can be controlled will we get a more accurate idea of the viability of the PBK market. And the conclusion can't rest on the sales of a single device either: Blackberry needs to regain trust even among diehard fans and this requires demonstrating commitment over time. It needs to pursue the market with the aggression that comes from true conviction in the products its making.

[Troy Tiscareno]

IMO, the small-screen PKB phones like the Classic/Q10 and the Bold before it are a thing of the past. Those smaller phones simply don't reflect the way people use their phones today, with apps, web browsing, media consumption, navigation, and games. Plus, of course, Android doesn't support 1:1 screen ratios.

The good news for you is that BB is slated to release the closest thing we're going to see to what you want: a 4:3 screen phone with a fixed keyboard. That's the phone that will put your theory to the test. IMO, it will need to sell very well in order to keep PKB phones alive.

We shall see...

[Nine54]

IMO, the small-screen PKB phones like the Classic/Q10 and the Bold before it are a thing of the past. Those smaller phones simply don't reflect the way people use their phones today, with apps, web browsing, media consumption, navigation, and games. Plus, of course, Android doesn't support 1:1 screen ratios.

Yet Apple recently released an updated version of the 4-inch iPhone. The median phone size has gotten larger, but Apple still sells more standard iPhones than iPhone Pluses and Samsung sells more Galaxy S phones than Notes. Not everyone wants a large phone. The Classic has a 3.5 screen: if they increase the display size by removing the toolbelt and using on-screen navigation buttons, it will be pretty close to iPhone SE territory.

The good news for you is that BB is slated to release the closest thing we're going to see to what you want: a 4:3 screen phone with a fixed keyboard. That's the phone that will put your theory to the test. IMO, it will need to sell very well in order to keep PKB phones alive.

We shall see...

It will be interesting, but I don't think we can say yet whether it will be a true indicator of the PBK market. There are caveats. For example, while it doesn't have to have the latest and greatest Snapdragon, Blackberry can't build it with mid-range components and then charge flagship prices. People might be willing to pay a slight premium for the PBK, but they still want to get what they pay for. It also has to have a good camera. Just because people might prioritize the PBK doesn't mean they're willing to accept drastic compromises on every other aspect of the device. This was one of Blackberry's strategic errors in the past. So, the camera doesn't have to be market leading, but it's gotta be better than just OK. Lastly, the keyboard has to be best-in-class, not like the Priv keyboard, which is listed as both a pro and a con in many reviews due to the cramped size, shallow travel, and ergonomic challenges. So basically, it's gotta be Bold/Classic-esque--maybe Passport-esque if we're being generous.

[anon(9721108)]

Yet Apple recently released an updated version of the 4-inch iPhone. The median phone size has gotten larger, but Apple still sells more standard iPhones than iPhone Pluses and Samsung sells more Galaxy S phones than Notes. Not everyone wants a large phone. The Classic has a 3.5 screen: if they increase the display size by removing the toolbelt and using on-screen navigation buttons, it will be pretty close to iPhone SE territory.



It will be interesting, but I don't think we can say yet whether it will be a true indicator of the PBK market. There are caveats. For example, while it doesn't have to have the latest and greatest Snapdragon, Blackberry can't build it with mid-range components and then charge flagship prices. People might be willing to pay a slight premium for the PBK, but they still want to get what they pay for. It also has to have a good camera. Just because people might prioritize the PBK doesn't mean they're willing to accept drastic compromises on every other aspect of the device. This was one of Blackberry's strategic errors in the past. So, the camera doesn't have to be market leading, but it's gotta be better than just OK. Lastly, the keyboard has to be best-in-class, not like the Priv keyboard, which is listed as both a pro and a con in many reviews due to the cramped size, shallow travel, and ergonomic challenges. So basically, it's gotta be Bold/Classic-esque--maybe Passport-esque if we're being generous.

Yup and this why more choices are still better. Offer something for everyone.


Sent from my BlackBerry 9900 using Tapatalk

[Joel Olmedo]

I never dissed the pkb but really didn't see the need. Since having my priv I prefer it over the vkb. BlackBerry has a killer vkb and it'd the best I've ever used but the pkb is better when you have a lot to say

Posted with my shiny new Priv

Agree. For non-trivial messaging on social apps, I find the Priv vkb more than competent. The occasional typos are forgivable for the speedy typing the vkb affords.

But for work email, when I find it too tedious to fire up the laptop, the Priv pkb is invaluable. Typing speed takes a hit, but the accuracy from the tactile typing experience on the pkb is just peerless.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[twelvezero8]

Of course also, many who diss the PKB have also never had one. Or they had one for a short time and never gave it much of a chance.

Considering that laptops and other serious devices for productive purposes are still some form of PKB, should speak volumes to people.

There may not be a "one device for all" tasks, but people need to appreciate the PKB fills a niche, no matter how large of small.

See this has always been my point. Imagine trying to type productively on a laptop with a new touch screen keyboard.... YOU COULDN'T! I will keep buying pkb devices as long as they exist and I was glad to hear from chen (outsourced idc) that there will be another pkb qwerty device. That will be next after the Priv depending on the form factor.

That's the thing: the Nexbit Robin and the Obi and the Jolla phones are NOT viable. They will lose their investors' money and will fail. And their customers will largely get screwed with no support (except, really, their customers aren't really expecting much in the way of support).

Here's the difference: these are all very small start-up companies who are spending money from investors who knew from the beginning that they were investing in a very high-risk venture. Those investors often invest in a dozen companies, knowing 11 of them will fail and hoping 1 will do well.

BB is not a startup - it's a mature, publicly traded company that has to operate under very different rules. It has a BoD that can be thrown out by its investors if those investors don't feel that BB is making wise choices with its (or, rather, THEIR) money.

We know that BB's entire slice of marketshare is about 0.2% today - and perhaps half of that is PKB phones. That means BB is making massmarket items (because that's what smartphones are) that target only 0.1% of the market. Even if they own that entire market, it's still only about 1.5M phones per year - and that's always been spread across at least 2 phone models. That's VERY low volume production, and low volume production in the smartphone business means you either need to be able to command a high price per unit (and the whining and gnashing of teeth that even BB's fans make whenever the price of a new phone is announced: "It's too expensive!" "They need to lower the price!" "When will it go on sale?" "I'm waiting for the firesale!") or they are probably going to lose money. And, that's exactly what BB has been doing for the last 5 years: losing money on every phone sold.

Yes, BB's PKB is iconic and probably the best in the business. I get that. I totally understand that fans want to see it continue. From IMO, there is simply no business case to continue PKB phones. Look at the Priv - AT&T bought a bunch, they didn't sell, and AT&T is going to lose a bunch of money (a loss they're probably sharing with BB) by discounting them to get rid of them. The PP and Classic have also been discounted. If there was demand for them, why were those discounts necessary, and why did they take so long to sell out?

A company like Samsung, which is profitable, can afford to serve small niches like PKB-lovers. IMO, BB cannot afford to do so, and their stubbornness is very likely to lead to their exiting hardware entirely.

Again, it's fine to serve a tiny niche IF you can command a premium price for doing so - that's how Porsche and Ferrari stay alive, not through volume - but if you can't command a premium, you're going to lose money - just as BB has continued to do. But they can't continue to do that forever.

The low sales of those phones mentioned have more to do with the brand name then "people hate pkb phones." We have seen third party companies try to come up with pkb solutions for android and ios touchscreen phones... THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT. I could guarantee that if Samsung or Apple released a PKB phone with the quality of BlackBerry it would sale more than all bb10 pkb devices combined

[cgk]

THERE IS A REASON FOR THAT.

That they think they will sell but so did BBRY - that shouldn't be confused with "will actually sell".

[twelvezero8]

That they think they will sell but so did BBRY - that shouldn't be confused with "will actually sell".

I disagree that reasoning was for people that wanted a more efficient typing experience. A VKB will never be a final solution for me. Too many mistakes made when typing. I hate sending something then look back and see three or four mistakes. You can't beat a PKB for efficient writing on a mobile device.

"PKB"

[Troy Tiscareno]

Yet Apple recently released an updated version of the 4-inch iPhone. The median phone size has gotten larger, but Apple still sells more standard iPhones than iPhone Pluses and Samsung sells more Galaxy S phones than Notes. Not everyone wants a large phone. The Classic has a 3.5 screen: if they increase the display size by removing the toolbelt and using on-screen navigation buttons, it will be pretty close to iPhone SE territory.

Yes, they did - because Apple had been making the smallest phones screens around for years, and some people didn't want to let them go. But you'll see sales of those 4" phones diminish over time, becoming a smaller and smaller nice before Apple gets rid of it.

And a 4"-screened PKB phone is going to be bigger than many current 5+" flagships. A Bold would look tiny next to it - heck, the Bold looks tiny next to a Classic already. Which is why I'm saying that those phones with tiny screens are dead - a Bold-sized device would have to have a tiny Bold-sized screen. Even the Classic's screen is too small for most people.

[Nine54]

Yes, they did - because Apple had been making the smallest phones screens around for years, and some people didn't want to let them go. But you'll see sales of those 4" phones diminish over time, becoming a smaller and smaller nice before Apple gets rid of it.

I don't know, apparently sales have been pretty good... Will sales diminish? In what way? As a percentage of overall iPhone sales or in actual units sold? Perhaps as a percentage sales might diminish, but I don't know about in terms of units. I doubt we'll ever see this data, but it would be interesting to see whether anyone "downgrades" from a larger iPhone to an iPhone SE.

Also, young kids could be a potential "growth" market for the SE. I see more and more young kids (i.e., not teens) with phones, but many models are simply too big for their hands. So, the SE could be a good "starter" phone simply for ergonomic reasons.

And a 4"-screened PKB phone is going to be bigger than many current 5+" flagships. A Bold would look tiny next to it - heck, the Bold looks tiny next to a Classic already. Which is why I'm saying that those phones with tiny screens are dead - a Bold-sized device would have to have a tiny Bold-sized screen. Even the Classic's screen is too small for most people.

For sure the Bold is too small. A Classic-sized device might have potential, though, if the toolbelt was removed. Or perhaps a "skinny" Passport-like design with a standard aspect ratio. That said, I'm not even sure I would go back to a PBK device, at least not as a sole device. I just don't think we've really seen enough innovation in PBK device design to know what's possible with the formfactor.

Part of the reason larger screens are needed is because UIs have correspondingly scaled up. Open a typical app on your phone and note how much space is taken up by graphical UI elements like "title" bars and white space vs. content. App UI design has gotten "chunky" because the screen real estate has increased. When screens were smaller and devs didn't have to worry about people pressing on-screen buttons, UIs were a little more compact.