02-25-14 12:41 PM
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  1. nt300's Avatar
    Black isn't exclusive to BlackBerry and has been used for 'spy' movies for some time. Black ops, black on black, etc.

    Posted via CB10
    Not quite, Blackberry is a phone, Blackphone is a phone. I call this infringement on giving people the impression this is based on BlackBerry Security.

    Anyhow, we are talking about Android. Knox has already been proven to be a joke, what next? The only secure phones out there are BlackBerry's whether via BES10 or not. They can harden Android as much as they want, and it will still get hacked and malware infected. KNOX already proved this over and over again.

    And let's not use iOS as an example for security, because it's not. Not to mention WP8 being worse.
    mmveets likes this.
    01-16-14 05:09 AM
  2. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    I've never asked this of a mod before, but... proof??
    Project Fishbowl has been discussed many times. NSA has been working with Cisco and Samsung on Android SE variant of the galaxy S4, that runs all Cisco voip apps on both secure and non secure sides. Cisco had a semi public commercial device working group where they discussed the device, and even circulated a demo.
    Barljo likes this.
    01-16-14 06:21 AM
  3. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    How do you know they are not behind the development of it.
    That's a blinking good point...

    After all, both the NSA and CSA have contributed to SE Linux. http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/developer.shtml
    01-16-14 08:11 AM
  4. Skateman1972's Avatar
    Based on a "Hardened" Android version..... 900 Million other Android devices would like to have this version as well

    01-16-14 08:23 AM
  5. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    That's a blinking good point...

    After all, both the NSA and CSA have contributed to SE Linux. http://www.nsa.gov/research/selinux/developer.shtml
    *cough* fishbowl *cough*

    While they are still securing SE Android, they have had a good deal of success with SE Linux so do not discount what is being done here. If they can pull off a dual persona classified/unclassified device that meets security standards and is able to use Android apps, BlackBerry sales in enterprise will disappear very quickly.

    Posted via CB10
    01-16-14 08:47 AM
  6. Drayk's Avatar
    If you're an Ordinary citizen then you should not worry about any snooping... Because there would be no reason to be snooped upon if you are not doing stuff out of the ordinary.
    This privacy debate has happened countless times. The answer is both yes and no. Ordinary citizen obeying the laws does have nothing to worry about, but then again, an ordinary citizen shouldnt be under surveilance if they are not breaking laws now should they lol

    There is no right, or wrong answer, it all depends on your personal philosophy.
    This is a debate that will exist as long as people walk the planet.
    On one side of the coin you have people p*ssed off about the NSA and "big brother" watching them.
    The other side of the coin you have people (a lot of times the same people) p*ssed off because things like 9/11 & the Boston Marathon bombing happen.
    We can't have it both ways. Society cannot be 100% anonymous and then wonder why "stuff" happens.
    Really....what's the big deal, anyway?
    If the NSA (or whomever) wants to see the picture of my package I txt'ed to the chick sitting in the cubical next to me....have at it.
    How does one differentiate between good and evil? The sad reality is: evil lurks among good. The only way to "discover" evil is to monitor good. THIS, is the sad reality.
    I would just love for the appropriate people to be able to stop a catastrophe at a major public event.
    .....PERSONALLY...... I would give up a bit of privacy to keep the country I was born in....and the country I love SAFE from those who would like to harm it and/or us.
    Uzi and Pete The Penguin like this.
    01-16-14 09:12 AM
  7. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    *cough* fishbowl *cough*

    While they are still securing SE Android, they have had a good deal of success with SE Linux so do not discount what is being done here. If they can pull off a dual persona classified/unclassified device that meets security standards and is able to use Android apps, BlackBerry sales in enterprise will disappear very quickly.

    Posted via CB10
    I'm not discounting anything. The good thing with open source is that the source code is available for scrutiny.

    I'll watch and wait.
    mornhavon likes this.
    01-16-14 09:22 AM
  8. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    This is a debate that will exist as long as people walk the planet.
    On one side of the coin you have people p*ssed off about the NSA and "big brother" watching them.
    The other side of the coin you have people (a lot of times the same people) p*ssed off because things like 9/11 & the Boston Marathon bombing happen.
    We can't have it both ways. Society cannot be 100% anonymous and then wonder why "stuff" happens.
    Really....what's the big deal, anyway?
    If the NSA (or whomever) wants to see the picture of my package I txt'ed to the chick sitting in the cubical next to me....have at it.
    How does one differentiate between good and evil? The sad reality is: evil lurks among good. The only way to "discover" evil is to monitor good. THIS, is the sad reality.
    I would just love for the appropriate people to be able to stop a catastrophe at a major public event.
    .....PERSONALLY...... I would give up a bit of privacy to keep the country I was born in....and the country I love SAFE from those who would like to harm it and/or us.
    The irony of you posting that it has to be one way or the other is amusing. Your avatar is a yin-yang, symbol of balance.

    That being said, the more technology we have, the more it will be used to monitor us, whether we know it or not. It is simply a fact of life. The difficult part is striking a balance between security and privacy, and that will always shift one way or another, much like a pendulum. Right now we are shifting towards privacy, because of the outrage of what NSA is doing. If there is another event the prompts higher security, people will scream for it to go the other way. There will never be a single point of balance, but a range.
    01-16-14 09:22 AM
  9. Sith_Apprentice's Avatar
    I'm not discounting anything. The good thing with open source is that the source code is available for scrutiny.

    I'll watch and wait.
    Vanilla Android is open source. This does not, in any way, mean that Android SE will be. Could it be? Absolutely.
    01-16-14 09:23 AM
  10. Pete The Penguin's Avatar
    Vanilla Android is open source. This does not, in any way, mean that Android SE will be. Could it be? Absolutely.
    Of course, PrivateOS will be a fork of Android so likely it'll be closed source but who knows until it's released.
    Sith_Apprentice likes this.
    01-16-14 09:29 AM
  11. Drayk's Avatar
    If you're an Ordinary citizen then you should not worry about any snooping... Because there would be no reason to be snooped upon if you are not doing stuff out of the ordinary.
    The irony of you posting that it has to be one way or the other is amusing. Your avatar is a yin-yang, symbol of balance.

    That being said, the more technology we have, the more it will be used to monitor us, whether we know it or not. It is simply a fact of life. The difficult part is striking a balance between security and privacy, and that will always shift one way or another, much like a pendulum. Right now we are shifting towards privacy, because of the outrage of what NSA is doing. If there is another event the prompts higher security, people will scream for it to go the other way. There will never be a single point of balance, but a range.
    I get, and understand exactly what you're saying. You referenced my point in the highlighted text above. I'm not sure its possible to find a balance in todays society. Another point I make is: other than keeping bank account & CC numbers safe, what is there to hide?
    I guess my overall point is: I'm not sure their is a "balance" between privacy & security. Evil looks like a duck, smells like a duck & acts like a duck until it takes off the duck suit.
    01-16-14 10:00 AM
  12. Blacklatino's Avatar
    Hmmmm......ok. If it happens - great. However, I'll take the "wait-n-see" approach as well. With a drawer full of BlackBerries - including a Z and a Q, I'll raise an eyebrow if/when it's available.
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    01-16-14 10:48 AM
  13. kthhrrsn's Avatar
    A team of encryption expects (founders of PGP) are working on a new device called the Blackphone.

    Claims that it will be 100% private, though I read its based off Android, so unsure how that will work. Bold claims considering we have Blackberries which are secure already.

    Sources:
    https://www.blackphone.ch/
    Back off, NSA: Blackphone promises to be the first privacy-focused smartphone
    I call BS! Android based + 100% secure don't go together!

    Sounds like they're trying to capitalize on BlackBerry's name and reputation for security. BlackBerry should look into a lawsuit.
    mmveets likes this.
    01-16-14 01:08 PM
  14. bbzp's Avatar
    I'm not sure its possible to find a balance in todays society. Another point I make is: other than keeping bank account & CC numbers safe, what is there to hide?
    I guess my overall point is: I'm not sure their is a "balance" between privacy & security.
    I understand your point that both sides probably won't agree on where the balance line should be drawn. If we could trust the government not to abuse their powers then the public would probably be less concern, but with reports of agents spying on their girlfriends and other innocent people without any justification it becomes hard to trust the government not to abuse their powers.

    Although my point is that if the government can spy on someone then it means other people like stalkers and hackers can do so too. That's a creepy and very concerning problem. You seem to be okay with it, but not everyone wants to share details of their lives even if they aren't doing anything wrong.

    For example, if a person is a celebrity they wouldn't want a stalker to get every detail of their private life. Even ordinary people should be concern because I've read news reports about hackers turning on cameras and watching girls changing their clothes.

    In my opinion, the possible balance is that since the government agencies have a large budget they should rely on their super computers and other expensive gadgets to do their spying rather than trying to weaken security with back doors as they have been accused of doing. This means the average criminal hacker wouldn't have the ability to brake strong security because they can't afford these super computers.

    It would allow innocent people to protect ourselves from stalkers and criminal hackers while allowing the government to still spy on bad guys. It wouldn't solve the abuse of power within the government, but should protect us from the bad guys because our security isn't weakened. The current lack of good security for everyone is what concerns me.

    Every time I read the news about how some criminal hacker stole personal data or how some creepy stalker was able watch people changing their clothes, it makes me want to protect myself even further. It seems everyone is so focused on government spying that they forget other people can do it also. Those are the bad guys ordinary people need to protect themselves from.
    01-16-14 02:38 PM
  15. mikeycollins13's Avatar
    Time wil tell.

    I buy BlackBerry for security first and foremost.
    I love crackberians who still think that the NSA can't hack into any Blackberry it wants in minutes. How the NSA and Blackberry managed to spread that lie is incredible;

    And as for that Swiss "BlackPhone" Probably developed secretly by the NSA for those truly hard to get targets.
    Pete The Penguin likes this.
    01-16-14 02:50 PM
  16. jpvj's Avatar
    I really don't understand why BlackBerry is not doing this.


    BlackBerry could easily make the same stuff as the own the whole hard- and software stack.

    I know they would be banned from some countries, if the traffic would not be interceptable, but privacy and security is one of THE things to have as a key selling point in these days.

    Just imagine a phone with built-in encrypted VoIP (could even be part of BBM and be cross platform and a profitable service)

    Web browsing is hard to make secure. Even though we can use SSL/TLS there is some uncertainity if NSA has weakened the implementation or design (I have not read the details) and BlackBerry cannot do anything about it. Of course they could make a proxy server with a secure encryption between the device and the proxy. This would hide/obfuscate what the user is actually doing, but it is not bulletproof so it's not really a solution.

    I still would like BlackBerry to enforce developers to explain in plain english why they require specific permissions - especially when accessing private information such as emails, contacts etc. If the explanation (which is shown to the user during installation) does not match what the app actually does, it should be removed from BB World and uninstalled on all devices. They key point is that it must be easy and transparent for the average user.
    Pete The Penguin likes this.
    01-16-14 02:57 PM
  17. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    haha the irony of these two lines amuses me. Anyone name what PGP means?
    You're Pretty Good right Sith

    When you dig a little, what you get is that this is an almost-standard Android device with a bundle of encryption software layers preloaded.
    The guys are pretty short on describing how it works, but I'd tend to believe that you need your correspondents to sport the same software to claim anything close to "secure". In fact, it's not "secure", it's P2P encrypted or "private", AFAIK.

    Marketing ...
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 01-17-14 at 03:25 AM.
    01-17-14 02:51 AM
  18. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    I love crackberians who still think that the NSA can't hack into any Blackberry it wants in minutes. How the NSA and Blackberry managed to spread that lie is incredible.
    Your statement is true and inaccurate at the same time.
    BIS/ActiveX/BB10 individuals devices can be.
    BES managed devices can't. Never have been hacked on "direct hack" (yet if you spy someone and get his pw ...)
    01-17-14 02:55 AM
  19. Jerale Hoard's Avatar
    I love crackberians who still think that the NSA can't hack into any Blackberry it wants in minutes. How the NSA and Blackberry managed to spread that lie is incredible;

    And as for that Swiss "BlackPhone" Probably developed secretly by the NSA for those truly hard to get targets.
    Until there's actual proof of them hacking a BlackBerry then I may believe. I already know that they can use social engineering phishing and GSM attacks but what about exploiting or rooting the software? I haven't seen this proof, yet.

    Posted via CB10
    Superfly_FR likes this.
    01-17-14 03:03 AM
  20. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    If you're an Ordinary citizen then you should not worry about any snooping... Because there would be no reason to be snooped upon if you are not doing stuff out of the ordinary.
    You nailed a very important point here. Sorry, I have to slide OT a bit ...
    We're living in an instant information world. A large part of your behavior is driven by informations you either search for or are pushed to you.
    In the "Quantum computing" pre-era, a google-like company can already predict with (something like) 85% accuracy what is the size, shape and color of your next pant (funny example, but I believe it's a good one).
    If you look it in a positive angle, you may say "well, that's cool: ads are now more interesting for me and I get targeted promotions". And you'll be right.
    But ...
    What you may not know is how this works, behind the scene ...
    In fact, you may believe (and it is in first gen targeting/tracking systems) that it is cookie based or due to your subscription to site x or z.
    But the system is more, far more advanced now.
    Your behavior and your data are not the only keys.
    You are now - due to computers power and storage - cross-linked and scored with as much data than you personal ones AND those of anything/anybody you've somehow liked or disliked. Take all your personal data like (dynamic) name, address, email, IP (range), land line, phone line, SS number, sexual orientation, political views, religions views (and so on), mix it with all your friends' (real life or social) data and behavior data and you have it; do you really thought google's group or Facebook were set for your personal recreation only ?

    What does it mean, potentially ?
    It means that - maybe one day - the NY Times, ABC, Fox or a political/cult/ethnic page can be customized to serve you not only what you prefer to read ... but could be customized in the form of something you will agree/disagree with, using (personal intimate) levers that will force your judgment in the desired direction. That's what it's all about. And I'm sure you can extrapolate to other aspects related to you "control" and loss of freedom of thinking". No matter what, it seems inevitable, sure ... but I believe we should try to make it harder in our childrens' sake.

    In France (and most European countries) we have very strict regulations regarding personal data management and storage and it is at least one matter we care about and closely monitor (there's a state organization for that : the CNIL). It's far from sufficient, but it does exist and have relative power; see http://www.cnil.fr/english/ for current stories; insightful.

    In the "world of freedom countries" (pls note, it's a plural), this excessive lack of regulation leads to the opposite of freedom; "driven consciousness".
    *freaking*

    Side note : you're 4 friends away from President Obama ... see where it could lead ?
    Last edited by Superfly_FR; 01-17-14 at 03:40 AM.
    jpvj and Vorkosigan like this.
    01-17-14 03:21 AM
  21. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    That is like saying Mount Everest can be climbed.. Haha

    Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk
    can't be climbed ... in flaps lol
    01-17-14 05:36 AM
  22. nhanken's Avatar
    Since it's a BlackPhone so it'll only come in black maybe o.o
    It doesn't have Angry Birds but it'll have Black Birds for sure!

    What colours are available???
    Does it have Angry Birds???


    Posted via CB10
    01-17-14 05:42 AM
  23. jpvj's Avatar
    My only question is this:
    Will they make it in tin foil color to match my hat?
    They will make a special device with the antenna crafted in tin foil and shaped like a hat ready to use out of the box!! ;-)
    01-17-14 07:35 AM
  24. jpvj's Avatar
    I love crackberians who still think that the NSA can't hack into any Blackberry it wants in minutes.
    Maybe you could elaborate a little about this subject?
    You try to describe - using a few (even remotely) possible ways - how NSA can break into a Blackberry?

    I don't say it is impossible - just really tired of hearing "NSA can break anything in minutes if they want" without anything to back it up.

    Pls. remember NSA is nothing more than a huge group of employed people with different skills. They are amongst the best, but they are also up against skilled developers, black box systems which they have to analyse, find attack vectors, weak spots and create working exploits.

    Unless you have someway to "push" info to a device (SMS is an example), you have to trick the user to get the malicious payload someway. This can e.g. be done with a phishing email.

    NSA also has a special team to get very close to high profile subjects with the goal of tampering with the hardware. This is not done within minutes and requires substantial planning and interception of such hardware.

    How the NSA and Blackberry managed to spread that lie is incredible;
    What *excatly* has BlackBerry or NSA stated that is proofed to be a lie?
    Unless you can *prove* something is incorrect, you are just making up statements and assumptions with absolutely nothing to back it up.

    And as for that Swiss "BlackPhone" Probably developed secretly by the NSA for those truly hard to get targets.
    Wow ... if you tell me the size of you head, I will order a special designed tin foil hat and have it delivered to you. Free of charge!


    In a computer system, you have a wide range of attach vectors.
    NSA is probably most interested in two things: What data is on a device, who the person is communicating with and where he is located at certain times.

    In order to get the data from the device, you can look at remote attacks or having the device at hand. The last bit is tricky as it requires access to the device for a certain time without the victim noticing it. From the leaked papers it seems that NSA does so in special cases, which typically could be by intercepting a computer and installing extra hardware before it is delivered to the end user.

    Remote attacks requires either knowledge of a exploitable weakness in the Apps and OS to get full control of the device. Theoretically BlackBerry (and other vendors) could have made a backdoor or even work directly with NSA to deploy a "patch" directly to a specific BlackBerry. Backdoors would be very hard to keep this secret over time. If discovered and published the company would loose all trust in the market.

    Data in transit is probably where NSA has some great tricks. Nobody knows how many places they have access to central communication channels, such as backbone fiber etc. This has nothing to do with the security of a BlackBerry device itself.

    Location is easy to get based on the wireless network, but requires collaboration with the carriers or direct access to the carriers systems (Google GCHQ for an Example)

    *Any* vendor are working under the laws in every markets they operate in. An example of this is when BlackBerry had to install a NOC for the BIS users in India/Pakistan (as far as I remember) and hand over plain text BBM messages to the intelligence service upon request.

    I could craft my own tin foil hat and say: "Well. NSA could simply force BlackBerry to make a backdoor in BB10 and request BlackBerry to silently push survailence software on a per case basis or even have their own "management console".

    I just doubt it. They would have to do so with many vendors, like Cisco, Citrix, Microsoft, Apple, Google, ... and might be able to hide code if stored in special parts of hardware applicances/devices etc. but you would never be able to hide traffic going in or out.

    Looking at all the leaked material from Snowden, there is simply no indications of this. It seems that vendors are doing their best to create their products, and NSA are working in parallel to find and create access to the devices in the market.
    01-18-14 07:56 AM
  25. Superfly_FR's Avatar
    You nailed a very important point here. Sorry, I have to slide OT a bit ...
    We're living in an instant information world. A large part of your behavior is driven by informations you either search for or are pushed to you.
    In the "Quantum computing" pre-era, a google-like company can already predict with (something like) 85% accuracy what is the size, shape and color of your next pant (funny example, but I believe it's a good one).
    If you look it in a positive angle, you may say "well, that's cool: ads are now more interesting for me and I get targeted promotions". And you'll be right.
    But ...
    What you may not know is how this works, behind the scene ...
    In fact, you may believe (and it is in first gen targeting/tracking systems) that it is cookie based or due to your subscription to site x or z.
    But the system is more, far more advanced now.
    Your behavior and your data are not the only keys.
    You are now - due to computers power and storage - cross-linked and scored with as much data than you personal ones AND those of anything/anybody you've somehow liked or disliked. Take all your personal data like (dynamic) name, address, email, IP (range), land line, phone line, SS number, sexual orientation, political views, religions views (and so on), mix it with all your friends' (real life or social) data and behavior data and you have it; do you really thought google's group or Facebook were set for your personal recreation only ?

    What does it mean, potentially ?
    It means that - maybe one day - the NY Times, ABC, Fox or a political/cult/ethnic page can be customized to serve you not only what you prefer to read ... but could be customized in the form of something you will agree/disagree with, using (personal intimate) levers that will force your judgment in the desired direction. That's what it's all about. And I'm sure you can extrapolate to other aspects related to you "control" and loss of freedom of thinking". No matter what, it seems inevitable, sure ... but I believe we should try to make it harder in our childrens' sake.

    In France (and most European countries) we have very strict regulations regarding personal data management and storage and it is at least one matter we care about and closely monitor (there's a state organization for that : the CNIL). It's far from sufficient, but it does exist and have relative power; see English - CNIL - Commission nationale de l'informatique et des libertés for current stories; insightful.

    In the "world of freedom countries" (pls note, it's a plural), this excessive lack of regulation leads to the opposite of freedom; "driven consciousness".
    *freaking*

    Side note : you're 4 friends away from President Obama ... see where it could lead ?
    Sorry for self-quoting (and going further O.T), but to illustrate my POV above, just found this on BGR ...
    Apple Targeted Ads: Mood-based ads from Apple could out-Google Google | BGR
    To some, Google’s acquisition of Nest brought visions of a terrifying (and perhaps, “evil”) future where the advertising giant tracks our every move and serves us ads based on not just our behavior online, but also our behavior in the real world. Monitoring hardware like the Nest thermostat and smoke detector could conceivably send Google data detailing how often we take trips to the refrigerator and what time we go to sleep each night, as well as data on thousands of other actions, to build profiles of our offline lives and serve ads based on our behavior. As scary as that is, Apple is investigating technology that takes the concept one step further and serves ads based on our mood.
    According to a patent application published by the United States Patent and Trademark office on Thursday and unearthed by AppleInsider, Apple has filed to protect technology it describes as “inferring user mood based on user and group characteristic data.” This data, according to the patent application, would then be used to help advertisers better target the ads that are served on Apple devices. So people who seem depressed all the time, for example, might get an onslaught of ads hawking various antidepressant drugs.
    The technology sounds pretty invasive. In fact, some might argue that it sounds downright “evil.”

    The patent application describes a system that would analyze user mood data collected over a period of time in order to create a “baseline mood profile.” That profile would then be compared to new mood-related behaviors at any given time to determine how a user is feeling at any given moment — and in order to serve an appropriate advertisement related to that mood.
    The system would catalog a combination of online behaviors such as posts on social networks, what videos are watched and the order in which apps are launched, as well as offline data points that might include heart rate, blood pressure and even perspiration (some fun background tasks for a forthcoming iWatch, perhaps).
    All this great mood-related data would then be delivered back to Apple and stored on its servers, to be analyzed on demand moments before ads are delivered to a user’s eyeballs.
    Welcome to the new world ... "New-York" style.
    01-23-14 09:15 AM
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