[tinochiko]

The question remains, what will Blackberry do about the user base made up of almost entirely of BBOS devices?

Can they maintain it without new BB7 devices?


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Yes, by boosting BB10 sales, effective marketing to legacy users not just posters, implementation of legacy features where possible, promotion of BB10 alternatives where not possible.. and the reduction of prices of the first BB10 devices, plus Jakarta

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

Carefull there, my sister in law is a Dyson rep lol

About a year ago or so they moved from Nokia dumb phones to 9320s on BES.

You'd think they could afford 9900 or at least something better, 9790s. But no, cheap it is.


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Lol well moving from dumb phones to BB10 would be a great big leap

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

BBOS doesn't need much work, it's fine and mature and stable as it is, it just needs some better specs.

Let's pay some thought to all those BBOS developers still making apps, why throw them under the buss?


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They can be transitioned to bb10 too, in fact I think it's easier to move them than some of the users

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

I've quoted the key part of your post.

Yes, Foxconn can probably make and sell phones cheaper than BB. Considering BB's last stab at the Indonesian market was the Q5 priced at $399, that wouldn't be too hard.

However, can Foxconn make them cheap enough to sell? Would a Jakarta priced at $199 sell well in a market dominated by Android phones that sell for around $150 or less. And the Android handsets of course have access to the vast Android Appstore, and have BBM, as well as being cheaper.

Still, it might be a success. If it is, then I believe the scenario I've outlined above will occur. The handsets will be designed and built by Foxconn, and BB will provide the OS. Once in a while, Chen may "design" some diamond-encrusted "Royal Jakarta" phone... but I believe it'll still be Foxconn doing most of the work and getting most of the profit.

Whilst a proper price will undoubtedly help sales, I believe it's worth adding value back to the Blackberry name which will in turn increase demand for their phones at a higher price, then these price inconsistencies wouldn't matter because people would believe their phones are worth the higher price, the market has spoken on the Z10, interestingly in the UK the Q10 is more or less holding its price.. (Q5 too I think)..

Doing that is what I mean by effective marketing make 'keep moving' mean something to the generic user, touch their emotions.. I believe it can and will be done, of Chen is as much action as he speaks..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[Thunderbuck]

BBOS doesn't need much work, it's fine and mature and stable as it is, it just needs some better specs.

Let's pay some thought to all those BBOS developers still making apps, why throw them under the buss?


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It's hard to say just how many of those are even out there anymore. Certainly many major ones announced their end of support for the platform long ago.

The BBOS devs got thrown under the bus a long time ago. It happened when management finally admitted in the summer of '11 that they wouldn't be able to emulate BBOS on QNX, as had been the original plan. The original Colt phone was supposed to be a full-touch phone that used legacy BB apps and utilities for PIM and so on. Had they made that work, BB would be a much healthier company now and we likely wouldn't even need to have this discussion.

[JeepBB]

Whilst a proper price will undoubtedly help sales, I believe it's worth adding value back to the Blackberry name which will in turn increase demand for their phones at a higher price, then these price inconsistencies wouldn't matter because people would believe their phones are worth the higher price, the market has spoken on the Z10, interestingly in the UK the Q10 is more or less holding its price.. (Q5 too I think)..

Doing that is what I mean by effective marketing make 'keep moving' mean something to the generic user, touch their emotions.. I believe it can and will be done, of Chen is as much action as he speaks..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

I've said before, I like Chen. I think he'll turn out to be an effective CEO for BB.

But, for all his effectiveness, I still believe that his plan for Jakarta won't succeed in Indonesia. Although I absolutely agree that it has to be tried.

I don't believe the BlackBerry name has the pull it once had. BBM, not the BlackBerry name, was the big draw in Indonesia according to several posters who have experience of that market. And BBM is now cross-platform.

Similarly, in a very price-concious market (even if you could quantify the list of feature advantages that BB10 has over Android, which I'm doubtful that you could as 10.2.1 brings parity not advantage IMO), a phone that costs $50 more than perfectly acceptable Android handsets is always going to struggle.

Truth is though, neither of us will know for at least a quarter after the release which way it'll go. So we should maybe put this question into abeyance for a few months?

[Bbnivende]

Here is what Chris thinks ... a $150 FoxConn device.

BlackBerry’s new 'Jakarta' handset needs to compete with Nokia’s next low-end Lumia | CrackBerry.com

[bigglybobblyboo]

I've said before, I like Chen. I think he'll turn out to be an effective CEO for BB.

But, for all his effectiveness, I still believe that his plan for Jakarta won't succeed in Indonesia. Although I absolutely agree that it has to be tried.

I don't believe the BlackBerry name has the pull it once had. BBM, not the BlackBerry name, was the big draw in Indonesia according to several posters who have experience of that market. And BBM is now cross-platform.

Similarly, in a very price-concious market (even if you could quantify the list of feature advantages that BB10 has over Android, which I'm doubtful that you could as 10.2.1 brings parity not advantage IMO), a phone that costs $50 more than perfectly acceptable Android handsets is always going to struggle.

Truth is though, neither of us will know for at least a quarter after the release which way it'll go. So we should maybe put this question into abeyance for a few months?

And guess what?

Carphone Warehouse pulled an exclusive deal to clear Z10 stock at £150 SIM Free or as little as £11 per month on contract.

You can only pre order on their website for delivery on 18th February because they are selling out and the wait has been as much as 2 weeks in the past.

http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/mobiles/mobile-phones/BLACKBERRY_Z10/MONTHLY?colourCode=WHITE

[belfastdispatcher]

And guess what?

Carphone Warehouse pulled an exclusive deal to clear Z10 stock at £150 SIM Free or as little as £11 per month on contract.

You can only pre order on their website for delivery on 18th February because they are selling out and the wait has been as much as 2 weeks in the past.

That's because they've already been wrote down. That is not a good thing no matter how you look at it, sure the user can get a cheap device but it will not make BB any money or bring in any service revenues.


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[garnok]

I've said before, I like Chen. I think he'll turn out to be an effective CEO for BB.

But, for all his effectiveness, I still believe that his plan for Jakarta won't succeed in Indonesia. Although I absolutely agree that it has to be tried.

I don't believe the BlackBerry name has the pull it once had. BBM, not the BlackBerry name, was the big draw in Indonesia according to several posters who have experience of that market. And BBM is now cross-platform.

Similarly, in a very price-concious market (even if you could quantify the list of feature advantages that BB10 has over Android, which I'm doubtful that you could as 10.2.1 brings parity not advantage IMO), a phone that costs $50 more than perfectly acceptable Android handsets is always going to struggle.

Truth is though, neither of us will know for at least a quarter after the release which way it'll go. So we should maybe put this question into abeyance for a few months?

you are right....BB marketshare in indonesia, are dropping very fast down to 14%. in 2012 BB have 37% marketshare... BlackBerry Losing Popularity In Indonesia | Ubergizmo data from idc indonesia

BBM is a big draw for people to buy a phone . when i go to phone store (Jakarta), most people today when they buy android phone, they always ask for BBM First. its funny when BB still losing money in BBM cross platform, their android competitors using BBM to attract buyers, in every store you could always find "BBM available" sticker next to display android phone.

[BobWalker]

Blackberry is number 3 with a 3 year old lineup of Legacy devices.

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I know! Can you imagine how well they'll do when more people learn how awesome the new ones are!

[belfastdispatcher]

I know! Can you imagine how well they'll do when more people learn how awesome the new ones are!

Don't you think that would've happened already in one year on the market?


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[spikesolie]

Don't you think that would've happened already in one year on the market?


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Ya if they got their marketing right

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[belfastdispatcher]

Ya if they got their marketing right

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Yeah, that's the problem with BB10, marketing. Poor product with poor software and no value added services has nothing to do with it right?


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[belfastdispatcher]

The most realistic path for recovery would be for BB to offer a genuine low-cost phone (namely the Jakarta that we'll likely see at MWC shortly). Forking their developer resources at this point would be perilous. Better to close the remaining functionality gap between legacy BBOS and BB10, which seems to be coming, if slowly.

The Z10 and Q5 are already low cost, what will Jakarta have better then them to make it a big seller?


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[FR33MAN]

Price

Posted via CB10

[belfastdispatcher]

Aren't you the one that emphasised that it was BB10 and legacy together?, this thread wasn't mean to be about the separate rankings of BB10 and BB7 ..although that's what it's turned into..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

You don't get it, the BB10 slice is so minuscule it's not even worth mentioning.

Find out how many countries BB10 devices are being sold in and divide 5 million by that number.

I assume BB10 is sold in at least 25 countries, probably more.

How far do you think that 5 million spreads? It's not even a user base number, it's devices sold.


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[kbz1960]

The Z10 and Q5 are already low cost, what will Jakarta have better then them to make it a big seller?


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Lower price, doesn't mean they'll sell well though.

[belfastdispatcher]

Lower price, doesn't mean they'll sell well though.

Exactly, so why would Jakarta sell any better?


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[Skyforever]

[QUOTE=belfastdispatcher;9991851]Yeah, that's the problem with BB10, marketing. Poor product with poor software and no value added services has nothing to do with it right?


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Wow! I'm convinced now you are actually seriously believing BB10 is not awesome?! And as I understand it you honestly think/believe BlackBerry should just go back and make the old phones that much better. That it is the only thing that will save BlackBerry somehow, or possibly somehow. My take is that is not going to happen, nor do I believe it should. BB10 will find it's way into peoples hands and BlackBerry will eventually be successful with BB10 products. You expect way to much for a new O.S. (in terms of sales) in such a short period of time (1 year is really not a long time, when you consider what BlackBerry has been up against, and that it actually failed imo with the first generation of BB10 to impress enough). It is obvious to me, you care about BlackBerry seeing how much time you spend on this site. It's also interesting there are other people who think like you or similar to you on this site. To each his own. Hopefully BlackBerry will put it together so that all people can be happy with their products. Not likely though as there is only so much time and money to do the things they have to do. I believe in BlackBerry under Chen. So far I'm really impressed with what Chen has done with BB10 and BlackBerry. Here is to hoping Chen will keep up with the "good" work, and to wish BlackBerry all the best prosperity in the near future.

[ray689]

[QUOTE=Skyforever;9992212]

Yeah, that's the problem with BB10, marketing. Poor product with poor software and no value added services has nothing to do with it right?


Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums[/QU

Wow! I'm convinced now you are actually seriously believing BB10 is not awesome?! And as I understand it you honestly think/believe BlackBerry should just go back and make the old phones that much better. That it is the only thing that will save BlackBerry somehow, or possibly somehow. My take is that is not going to happen, nor do I believe it should. BB10 will find it's way into peoples hands and BlackBerry will eventually be successful with BB10 products. You expect way to much for a new O.S. (in terms of sales) in such a short period of time (1 year is really not a long time, when you consider what BlackBerry has been up against, and that it actually failed imo with the first generation of BB10 to impress enough). It is obvious to me, you care about BlackBerry seeing how much time you spend on this site. It's also interesting there are other people who think like you or similar to you on this site. To each his own. Hopefully BlackBerry will put it together so that all people can be happy with their products. Not likely though as there is only so much time and money to do the things they have to do. I believe in BlackBerry under Chen. So far I'm really impressed with what Chen has done with BB10 and BlackBerry. Here is to hoping Chen will keep up with the "good" work, and to wish BlackBerry all the best prosperity in the near future.

Agreed. He doesn't understand why BB10 isn't selling well. It's not because of the BB10 itself but rather because of Legacy OS and the reputation of has in the market. People see BlackBerry and only think of that and turn the other way. BlackBerry OS is the platform that gave BlackBerry this terrible reputation in the industry and not BB10. He doesn't get it.

Posted via CB10

[sentimentGX4]

Agreed. He doesn't understand why BB10 isn't selling well. It's not because of the BB10 itself but rather because of Legacy OS and the reputation of has in the market.

No, BB10 isn't selling well at least partly (and more likely mostly) because of itself. How would you characterize the app situation? The price tags? The outlandish hardware spec sheet? The launch reboot bugs that is likely one of the most major, pervasive bugs of any modern mobile operating system?

Contrary to popular opinion around here, BB10 contributed as much, if not more damage, to Blackberry's reputation than BB OS7. BB OS7 was given exceptions as a formerly relevant smartphone relic. BB10, in contrast, was hyped to be Blackberry's vision of the future: better than Android or iOS. And when Blackberry's vision of the future included 4.2" displays and year old CPUs and OS bugs and missing apps, etc. etc. and looked like what came out of its competitors 1 to 1.5 years ago, it just greatly underdelivered.

Also, BB10 is responsible for building the genuine sentiment that "Blackberry is dead". People have been saying Blackberry has been dead for a long time even during BB OS7; but, many of the initial wave of those were fanboys who didn't use Blackberry. BB10 is when the sentiment "Blackberry is dead" really hit home with actual Blackberry users, most notably its enterprise clients. Back-to-back consecutive billion dollar writedowns are severely hurting Blackberry's reputation.

If BB OS7 was perceived so much worse than BB10, it would not outsell BB10 3-to-1. Even if BB10 was suffering the horrible BB OS7 stigma, shouldn't consumers hate both BB OS7 and BB10 equally if their perception is build entirely from BB OS7 and they didn't know about BB10? Shouldn't they be more open to buying BB10 Blackberry when they see it, a phone that looks NOTHING like the despised OS7 ??

The fact of the matter is BB OS7 caused a lot of BBRY's problems; but, it isn't fair to scapegoat it for all of BB10's missteps. Without BB OS, it'd be naive to think that BB10 could even be as big as it currently is. No one would bat BB10 an eye if it came from a company like Jolla. BB10 is basically leeching off BB OS's former glory and all BB OS gets is flack for being everything wrong with BB10.

[tinochiko]

No, BB10 isn't selling well at least partly (and more likely mostly) because of itself. How would you characterize the app situation? The price tags? The outlandish hardware spec sheet? The launch reboot bugs that is likely one of the most major, pervasive bugs of any modern mobile operating system?

Contrary to popular opinion around here, BB10 contributed as much, if not more damage, to Blackberry's reputation than BB OS7. BB OS7 was given exceptions as a formerly relevant smartphone relic. BB10, in contrast, was hyped to be Blackberry's vision of the future: better than Android or iOS. And when Blackberry's vision of the future included 4.2" displays and year old CPUs and OS bugs and missing apps, etc. etc. and looked like what came out of its competitors 1 to 1.5 years ago, it just greatly underdelivered.

Also, BB10 is responsible for building the genuine sentiment that "Blackberry is dead". People have been saying Blackberry has been dead for a long time even during BB OS7; but, many of the initial wave of those were fanboys who didn't use Blackberry. BB10 is when the sentiment "Blackberry is dead" really hit home with actual Blackberry users, most notably its enterprise clients. Back-to-back consecutive billion dollar writedowns are severely hurting Blackberry's reputation.

If BB OS7 was perceived so much worse than BB10, it would not outsell BB10 3-to-1. Even if BB10 was suffering the horrible BB OS7 stigma, shouldn't consumers hate both BB OS7 and BB10 equally if their perception is build entirely from BB OS7 and they didn't know about BB10? Shouldn't they be more open to buying BB10 Blackberry when they see it, a phone that looks NOTHING like the despised OS7 ??

The fact of the matter is BB OS7 caused a lot of BBRY's problems; but, it isn't fair to scapegoat it for all of BB10's missteps. Without BB OS, it'd be naive to think that BB10 could even be as big as it currently is. No one would bat BB10 an eye if it came from a company like Jolla. BB10 is basically leeching off BB OS's former glory and all BB OS gets is flack for being everything wrong with BB10.

All the issues you mentioned are part of Marketing's four P's (app situation- product, price-tag -> price hardware bugs etc - product

first i would like to say that if you just check out this thread here http://forums.crackberry.com/general...ce-why-904261/ this is just one of many on a fansite where people can come and talk about their problems that you actually see alot of satisfied BB10 customers.

whilst I appreciate that BB7 was/is valuable as a device and system to people, it WAS the issue, it was even stated that both sales are falling and yet the same individual who said that seemed to think that Blackberry was all fine and dandy and it was BB10 that somehow caused Blackberry to fail, do a generic poll asking how many people would have left Blackberry if BB10 wasn't an option and youll see the truth, whilst there will be individuals such as yourself that wouldnt ever leave legacy, the majority where on their last straw.

BB10 is Blackberry;'s Now and Future, where was BB10 when blackberry went from a peak of 15million sales to around a third of that?

recognise the true faliures of BB10, less of the device, a little bit of software, a little more about apps( although all that required was some training of carrier floors individuals which wasnt effectively done) , and mostly communicating the message to BB10,.. these issues can all be fixed and are worth the costs .

fixing the failures of BB7 is BB10, a rerun of BB8 would not be worth the costs, as many people have stated, the sales figures youre using Which dont show the userbase growth of BB10 vs BB7 in the UK when put in the context of a year old enterprise and the struggles facing brand recognition and mistrust which werent dealt with, its something that can be worked on for this year.


and also i would like to add, these sales where with 2, 3 at most 4 devices (with one launched at the end of the year but for arguments sake..) it was recently said how poor BB10 sales were especially considering the number of countries they sold to.. okay 5 million divided by 4 = 1,250,000 now take BB7 sales for the year, divide that by the number of BB7 devices available .. and..so device for device which sells better? and if youre going to say these figures arent relevant, then neither are any of the blackberry quarterly results since they dont show device ownership in the UK or globally so make your mind up.. you still havent shown figures of userbase in the UK only starting to drop after the launch of BB10 as you claimed..

[belfastdispatcher]

Poor software... yea it just so happens that majority of bb10 adapters love it.. idk about you but compared to your precious iPhone it woods it out completely

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The majority of a tiny minority doesn't count for much.


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[belfastdispatcher]

Dude, BB10 and BBOS are already price for price in UK, the Z10 is now cheaper then the 9720, still NOT selling.


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