[Superfly_FR]

Nobody would argue if BB10 was a success, but it's a failure.

It's just to early to be that definitive. Either ways.

[belfastdispatcher]

It's just to early to be that definitive. Either ways.

I admire your continued optimism, I used to share it but............

The numbers speak louder then any argument, and I suspect the next quater will be no better.

This is starting to remind me of other big failing companies that are naked dry by executives ie Kodak, Polaroid


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[tinochiko]

Apologies to those that prefer opinion skewed 'data'





TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

I didn't raise the topic, I merely responded to someone else.

Plus, the topic of BB7 vs BB10 ownership is important when analysing device ownership in the UK - it is perfectly suitable for this thread.

Finally, I don't agree with an argument for a BB8 OS upgrade anyway and that wasn't my point.

Posted via CB10

Fair enough and I merely responded to you,

Maybe (at a stretch) especially when actual figures can't be provided to the fact but the topic(using the term broadly) of BB7 is much better than BB10 and therefore the sensible future for BlackBerry is not..

And good its nice when people can agree on something

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

Is loosing features and services "moving forward"?

PS I'd actually love a rotary phone


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Is gaining a more up to date UI, intuitive new features, and some of the features you're thinking of you know being slowly added back to some extent... moving backwards? Getting a device that is much more stable, whose battery (Z10 aside) is much more reliable moving backwards?

To keep this relevant, I don't think that those legacy users in the UK aren't upgrading to BB10 because of the lack of features, more because of price and lack of knowledge, even though you continue to disregard this, there was no effective marketing for BB10 in the UK..

There's a London/outer London train free newspaper called the METRO, get a random one, open it up and you'll see iPhone ads even andorid ads, but almost NEVER BB10 ads, and that's just from networks, if networks aren't even publishing that they've got BB10 how are people meant to know? A few billboards that don't even tell them how BB10 is different?

BB10 isn't struggling because of a lack of features, it's struggling because if a lack of knowledge, both just knowing BB10 and knowing how it's different and also just the bad stigma about BlackBerry that people don't give it a chance, they need a major PR campaign which even with limited funds can be achieved.

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

Third is good but First is the best.. nothing to celebrate if you're not the best

Posted via CB10

I wouldn't say nothing, if you look it up, Dyson are actually not considered the 'best' hoovers in statistics, they're like 10th down, but they've got a lot to celebrate but true, it's not time to celebrate its time for hard work

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

Last I checked, Legacy devices are still BlackBerry devices no? So even if they are the cause of this number 3 position, that's relatively good news right?

Lol, the funny thing is no one (at least I) is saying it isn't, well tbh it's not good because it's a falling figure but it's something.. however I seem to have been attacked for something I didn't say (BB10 is the reason they're third) after asking someone to back up their statements, but that's the way of forums

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[belfastdispatcher]

I wouldn't say nothing, if you look it up, Dyson are actually not considered the 'best' hoovers in statistics, they're like 10th down, but they've got a lot to celebrate but true, it's not time to celebrate its time for hard work

TechCraze C0008DDD1

Carefull there, my sister in law is a Dyson rep lol

About a year ago or so they moved from Nokia dumb phones to 9320s on BES.

You'd think they could afford 9900 or at least something better, 9790s. But no, cheap it is.


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[Bbnivende]

And throwing billions at a product that sales in less then 2 millions in 3 months is common sense to you?

Nobody would argue if BB10 was a success, but it's a failure.




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Yes ,so far, BB10 devices have not been successful in reversing BlackBerry's fortunes.

Go back in time. The downward spiral was being commented on even as they were rolling out BB7.

Open letter to BlackBerry bosses: Senior RIM exec tells all as company crumbles around him | BGR

RIM's QNX phones are going to be amazing | BGR

http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/16/b...h-9850-review/

Basically, except for countries that needed BIS and where even 3G is a luxury BB7 was DOA back then. What we are experiencing now is platform inertia. It takes a while to run down.

BlackBerry was caught because BB7 wasn't good for all touch devices and for apps and they were having a lot of problems with designing QNX that could work with BES. There were significant problems in transitioning from a business phone to a consumer phone.

I have hopes that the Q30 and Jakarta may help BB10 sales.

[tinochiko]

I've got two BB7 devices and a playbook and use them all constantly. I want BB10 but I'm waiting to see what phones they bring out in 2014. If I'm honest I wouldn't buy another BB7 device, I just feel like I've 'done that' and want something new. I also go to London tons for work and just from looking round on the train etc I would say 50% of people in suits (including me) use a BB. Bold 9900 and the more recent curves are the most popular, I have yet to see a BB10 device in the wild.

Thanks for the insight

What's been holding you back from BB10 in terms of the iPhones they've released so far (price, quality etc)

How much of a influence are the specific features from BB7 that are no longer available on BB10?

And lol you should strike up a conversation with them do you think there been enough promotion of BB10 in your area?

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[JeepBB]

I would think it is a 'try before you buy' deal - if Foxconn make good progress, they buy, if they don't, they say "thanks but no thanks".

Yes, again I agree.

I very much see Jakarta as a trial, for both BB and Foxconn. Chen has cleverly split the hardware side away so it could be part of BB... or part of some other company. And Chen has also made clear that the development risks of Jakarta are solely Foxconn's ... no more written-down inventory for BB.

If Jakarta is a success, I'm sure Foxconn will be offered the "opportunity" to take on the HW Division, whilst BB take a share of the royalties. If it isn't a success, much more likely in my view ... then, Foxconn will shrug, walk away, and BB will IMO close the shop and exit HW production.

IIRC, some of that $4.4Bn loss announced at the last ER was money paid to end existing BB production contracts. Without Foxconn, do BB have any means of producing new hardware?

[tinochiko]

Z10 here mate since last Feb! If you could have come into our company meeting in Jan there were over 40 BB10's in the room (ok, it was up North so it might have been something of a trip just to see a load of happy Z10, Q10 And Z30 owner's )...

Wanna try something different, amazing and yet strangely familiar?

Go BB10...!

Posted via CB10

Where they on legacy before?

If so my followup question would be how satisfied they were with their BB10?

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

My health department bought a bunch of Q10s at end of last year (10 handsets I think)...it's a compact phone with a keyboard, what's not to like?

But my own personal phone is the Z10...I can't see myself going back to an iphone. What a sweet phone the Z10 really is....and such a bloody shame it's not in the hands of more people.

Again did they own legacy devices before? And if so how are they responding to the change?

Yeah it is a shame, but thank you for reiterating that the device is not what's lacking

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

Plus the only reason they still have a slice of the pie is BBOS, BB10 is the equivalent of crumbs, regardless of how much some people on CB like BB10.

Sales of both are on their way down.


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The ONLY reason? Again I ask you to justify your statements.. and just pointing me to the blackberry figures is not that because they don't say that the ONLY reason they have a 'slice of the pie' is BB7, BB7 may be the bigger reason (because of the reason of price rather than features) but it's not the only reason..

So the rules to stay on topic only apply to other posters? Thread is about ownership not sales and the BlackBerry figures don't directly relate to the UK..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[spikesolie]

I don't believe that, I never said I do. But abandoning BB10, for consumers at least, and maintaining their BBOS users base that appears to be sustainable will buy them some time to figure out a better product.

At the end of the day BB10 is not selling, BBOS is not the problem here, BB10 is.

The only think propping them up now IS BBOS


In the first quarter of BB10 sales were 1 million

Third quarter 1.6 million

I mean what more proof do you want?

I see more BBOS devices as a short term solution or a parallel solution.


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There is nothing in the nearest feature that is better than QNX. Their problem is.not the os. Most people that tries bb10 loved it. BBOS isn't even a solution either way

Posted via CB10

[tinochiko]

So even if we don't have solid facts along with a list of credible, verifiable, and trustworthy sources, we can still look at the odds. Seeing as BB7 still far outsells BB10 devices at least 4 to 1 (this is an estimate, sorry that I don't have a credible, verifiable, trustworthy source or regional breakdowns of each device) and that there were already millions of legacy devices (another estimate here) already in use in the UK, and that BB10 only sold around 5 million devices worldwide (hopefully this will be accepted as a fact) its seems very fair to say that the likelihood that there are more BB7 devices rather than BB10 devices is rather high.

Also, I don't want to start another thread, in case you were wondering. I was just making a little comment. I think its perfectly fine to make a comment that isn't 100% related to the title of the thread without having to create an entire new discussion.

1) I accept your apology

2) it may be fair, that doesn't mean you can use to fuel a private seperate argument about BB7 being a better device without taking into account other factors such as price


3) if everyone thought that was 'perfectly fine' imagine how hectic threads would be, even if you've got just one thing to say, another thread means people can discuss that one thing and separate subjects don't get mixed




TechCraze C0008DDD1

[Ecm]

To All Participants!

This thread has strayed well off course, and some participants have become too argumentative. A number of posts have been deleted for unwelcome content (and posts where such comments were posted).

[WARN]Stay on topic.
Debate, but do not get personal. Insults or flaming comments will not be tolerated.[/WARN]

[Thunderbuck]

Or more realistically with an updated BB8 legacy device.


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The most realistic path for recovery would be for BB to offer a genuine low-cost phone (namely the Jakarta that we'll likely see at MWC shortly). Forking their developer resources at this point would be perilous. Better to close the remaining functionality gap between legacy BBOS and BB10, which seems to be coming, if slowly.

[tinochiko]

The irony is, while you blame BBOS for the drop in marketshare, BBOS is also the only reason BlackBerry has any marketshare left at all.

With just 5 million BB10devices sold globally in one year and dropping sales, where do you draw the line? When do you say, ok BB10 failed, we need something else if we want to exist in the future?




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Hmm.. 0-5 million in one year vs a peak of 15million toward the end of 2011 ( which according to this graph never rose above 5million per year but almost certainly did fall by over that)

And once again the rules of sticking to the thread don't apply to you but you proclaim it to others, you pointed out that market share isn't the point it's ownership.. and when there are individuals who won't move to BB13 because (by then) BB10 is the main reason BB13 is alive and BB13 is too different to BB10, then that's when we can say BB10 is be a failure...

TechCraze C0008DDD1

EDIT : Graph
Attachment 246950

[belfastdispatcher]

The most realistic path for recovery would be for BB to offer a genuine low-cost phone (namely the Jakarta that we'll likely see at MWC shortly). Forking their developer resources at this point would be perilous. Better to close the remaining functionality gap between legacy BBOS and BB10, which seems to be coming, if slowly.

BBOS doesn't need much work, it's fine and mature and stable as it is, it just needs some better specs.

Let's pay some thought to all those BBOS developers still making apps, why throw them under the buss?


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[tinochiko]

Given the size of the sector, the number of markets it was released in, it is actually pretty dreadful - you are maybe looking at sub-200,000 in some markets across 4 handset designs (although the Z30 and the Q5 were both likely bombs and account for a small amount). The bigger problem is that the platform doesn't seem to have ramped - the most recent phone was released on few carriers than the first and with virtually no marketing, so it is likely the first year of sales was also the peak and we are now in decline.

Thanks, perhaps you could also clarify the context of the millions legacy is selling now and put that into perspective for individuals here..

That might shed some light on the ownership figures..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[tinochiko]

None of these arguments change the fact that BBOS is platform no 3 in UK based in user base.

In the meantime BB10 ranks at??????

Incidentally that is what this thread is about.

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Aren't you the one that emphasised that it was BB10 and legacy together?, this thread wasn't mean to be about the separate rankings of BB10 and BB7 ..although that's what it's turned into..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[Bbnivende]

Yes, again I agree.

I very much see Jakarta as a trial, for both BB and Foxconn. Chen has cleverly split the hardware side away so it could be part of BB... or part of some other company. And Chen has also made clear that the development risks of Jakarta are solely Foxconn's ... no more written-down inventory for BB.

If Jakarta is a success, I'm sure Foxconn will be offered the "opportunity" to take on the HW Division, whilst BB take a share of the royalties. If it isn't a success, much more likely in my view ... then, Foxconn will shrug, walk away, and BB will IMO close the shop and exit HW production.

IIRC, some of that $4.4Bn loss announced at the last ER was money paid to end existing BB production contracts. Without Foxconn, do BB have any means of producing new hardware?

In December this is what Chen said :

“We’re taking advantage of their efficiencies, their parts, their ability with logistics,” he said. “Over time, I’d love them to design more handsets for us and I’d just do some really cool, high-end devices.”

Chen said Blackberry’s designers in North America will focus on smartphones aimed at enterprise users in the short term.

I see FoxConn making world devices similar to Alcatel does now (Yes I was probably wrong in hoping for iphone quality). BlackBerry will make a bigger and better Q. The ship has truly sailed on BBOS unless Foxconn decides to make a phone that uses BIS. Having Foxconn make BB10 devices is huge for BlackBerry. They can make and sell phones cheaper than BlackBerry can.

If BlackBerry can survive as a handset maker. Chen has plans to move up market again.

[tinochiko]

Not sure why this is being argued so hotly. A poll that consisted of 450 Smartphone users I think we all can agree is not a "real" indicator of where the user base or market share is. I'd put more faith in statcounter.....

We all know that YES the UK market is still one of BlackBerry's strongest. And YES we all know that even there BlackBerry is quickly becoming a percentage that is irrelevant either way you want to count them. But hey that are number #3 so Hip Hip Hurry!

True but the organisation behind the report have been doing it for years and are readable reliable in terms of trends.

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[JeepBB]

Having Foxconn make BB10 devices is huge for BlackBerry. They can make and sell phones cheaper than BlackBerry can.

If BlackBerry can survive as a handset maker. Chen has plans to move up market again.

I've quoted the key part of your post.

Yes, Foxconn can probably make and sell phones cheaper than BB. Considering BB's last stab at the Indonesian market was the Q5 priced at $399, that wouldn't be too hard.

However, can Foxconn make them cheap enough to sell? Would a Jakarta priced at $199 sell well in a market dominated by Android phones that sell for around $150 or less. And the Android handsets of course have access to the vast Android Appstore, and have BBM, as well as being cheaper.

Still, it might be a success. If it is, then I believe the scenario I've outlined above will occur. The handsets will be designed and built by Foxconn, and BB will provide the OS. Once in a while, Chen may "design" some diamond-encrusted "Royal Jakarta" phone... but I believe it'll still be Foxconn doing most of the work and getting most of the profit.