[garnok]

Your graph is clearly wrong, are you saying in 2011 BB only had 20 million users? Check your sources.


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read it again BD its only in the US

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

I completely agree that BBOS is not the future, the problem is that BB10 is a market failure and I don't think that Blackberry had the time or resources to turn that around or even the intent to do so (look at how the Z30 was pushed out in the cold to die). I think that Chen is trying to build a lean enterprise services company as quickly as possible and that the deal with Foxconn is simply a prelude to selling off the hardware side.

That's why I think an assessment based on BBOS or BB10 is the wrong one, they are both zombie OSes - it's just that one is slowly dying and the other was DOA.

Yeah as great as I think BB10 could be given another year to grow.... there is really no way it will have the time to do so. Marketshare/User base, for BlackBerry neither one is doing well at this point. And there is NO expectation that will change. Some here believe a $200 device will make a difference in some markets, but they ignore the fact that $100 and $150 devices are already the norm in those markets. So the truth is, there is no new hardware devices that is going to turn things around. There is no minor software upgrade that is going to turn things around - even if we got full Google Play, you would find it very hard to try and convince an average consumer to buy a BlackBerry over an Android device.

Most everyone accepted last year that BlackBerry was taking their final shot to stay in the smartphone business. But those same people do not want to accept that shot failed and that it is over. The question now is what becomes of BlackBerry the company....

[belfastdispatcher]

read it again BD its only in the US

This thread is about UK, if anything post global numbers, nobody asked for US only user base.


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[garnok]

This thread is about UK, if anything post global numbers, nobody asked for US only user base.


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you are right, but it's already out of topic anyway...

[web99]

Sorry but that's wrong, legacy user base only started shrinking in 2013, the peak was at 80 millions at the end of 2012 clearly coinciding with the BB10 launch. My guess is people waited to see it and then left to other platforms.

Let's not mislead people. User base did not drop for 4 years, far from it.

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The other problem with this statement is the following. If 4 years ago in 2010 the BBOS userbase was 70 million, when the total amount of smartphones in the market was 200 million smartphones, then they are not doing too badly.

But then if the total amount of smartphones have grown by a factor of 5 to1 billion and the Blackberry userbase has only grown by 10 million to 80 million as occurred just before the BB10 launch, then BlackBerry has a real problem.

That is the problem that BBOS was having. Their percentage of new phones that were being sold kept on shrinking and shrinking. There is no way of sustaining it.


Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z10

[ray689]

WP8 ? i dont know...maybe im wrong

but it is not about how many people buy it at launch, but its about how the sales number grow each quarter... if BBRY and investors satisfied with number you mention BBRY will not lost billion dollars, fired CEO who launch BB10 platform, put the company for sales, losing large marketshare and userbase number, cancel sales of the company because the buyers dont get loan from the bank (rumour)

So WP8 was a new platform built from the ground up?

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[MarsupilamiX]

What about user base not declining before BB10?

Attachment 246847

KBZ, stop with the facts!!!!
It's obvious that we don't want them in here!

I mean, who cares about the numbers, if we could just be ignorant?
How could you even dare, to show us that graph?!

Your graph is clearly wrong, are you saying in 2011 BB only had 20 million users? Check your sources.

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Learn how to interpret the data you are given?
It reads US customers

Which clearly makes my point of BlackBerry being extremely reliant on the enterprise sector and emerging markets.

This thread is about UK, if anything post global numbers, nobody asked for US only user base.


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You said that the userbase hasn't declined, globally.
You didn't specify what regions you meant.

The other problem with this statement is the following. If 4 years ago in 2010 the BBOS userbase was 70 million, when the total amount of smartphones in the market was 200 million smartphones, then they are not doing too badly.

But then if the total amount of smartphones have grown by a factor of 5 to1 billion and the Blackberry userbase has only grown by 10 million to 80 million as occurred just before the BB10 launch, then BlackBerry has a real problem.

That is the problem that BBOS was having. Their percentage of new phones that were being sold kept on shrinking and shrinking. There is no way of sustaining it.

Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z10

Absolutely correct.
BlackBerry didn't profit from the smartphone craze in the last 6-8 years.
In a time were the market grew to more than 1 billion smartphones sold a year (2013), BlackBerry couldn't capitalize on that fact.
It clearly shows us, that the vast majority of consumers (99% in 2013) neither see a BBOS device as desirable, nor as a competitive offer.

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[belfastdispatcher]

None of these arguments change the fact that BBOS is platform no 3 in UK based in user base.

In the meantime BB10 ranks at??????

Incidentally that is what this thread is about.

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[MarsupilamiX]

None of these arguments change the fact that BBOS is platform no 3 in UK based in user base.

In the meantime BB10 ranks at??????

Incidentally that is what this thread is about.

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Installed userbase.
You know what it means, right?

Btw, whom of us just had to make this another BBOS vs BB10 thread, on his never ending vendetta against the future?

And because I can:
None of these facts change the fact of BBOS being totally irrelevant in today's market.
If the installed userbase in the UK is higher than elsewhere, is totally irrelevant.
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[kbz1960]

This thread is about UK, if anything post global numbers, nobody asked for US only user base.


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This one any better?

[garnok]

So WP8 was a new platform built from the ground up?

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you are not mention anything before about built it from the ground up

but who cares it being build from the ground....BB engineers sure make a fantastic job make a great OS from the ground, maybe if it is only OS vs OS , BB10 will come on top against other competitors..but in the end people want ecosystem and apps, brand recognition, after sales services, hardware specs etc.

[belfastdispatcher]

This one any better?

No, this one shows marketshare, not user base, which what this thread is about. Try again.


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[kbz1960]

So WP8 was a new platform built from the ground up?

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From previous win phone and win7. I think it pretty much was.

[cgk]

I guess that the difference in the way we look at the market, stems from the fact of me not seeing BB10 itself as a bad product.
What I see is one executional fail after another.

Posted via CB10

Just to be clear about this - my position is not that BB10 is a bad product, my position is that it's largely irrelevant if BB10 is a good, bad or indifferent product simply because the market realities mean that the actual product itself is only a quite small part of the overall package that leads to success. Even if we accept that is the best OS on the market (for argument's sake) I don't think that is particularly significant in itself.

[kbz1960]

No, this one shows marketshare, not user base, which what this thread is about. Try again.


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Having trouble finding that. Help me out and post what you have, please.

[belfastdispatcher]

Having trouble finding that. Help me out and post what you have, please.

Try the official BB Quarterly reports.


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[kbz1960]

Try the official BB Quarterly reports.


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Don't know how to fond them. You know all about it, post it already and broken down by country.

[belfastdispatcher]

Don't know how to fond them. You know all about it, post it already and broken down by country.

Each and one of them are blogged on CB. In the meantime I have to drive, do your own research.

PS, who asked you for country by country breakdown?


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[belfastdispatcher]

Obviously nobody reads anymore, for the record, I was correcting a different poster that claimed user base dropped for the last 4 years. He accepted my correction, apologised and said he actually meant marketshare, not user base.

I don't know why you still argue about the numbers, but if you're gonna argue at least read the entire context.


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[belfastdispatcher]

I have searched for things to back up my claims. You only talk.

I asked for a breakdown since this is about the UK which you clearly brought up.

Then you must've missed the OP post, in UK Blackberry is at number 3 based on user base. Start reading from the beginning. I didn't "bring it up", this is the thread subject.

Man this is frustrating


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[cgk]

Since you clearly don't believe BB10 has what it takes to turn around the company (and yes, the ecosystem going with the OS is included here) and you apparently agree with BBOS being an answer to a question nobody asks anymore...
Would you agree with the following statement:

If BlackBerry doesn't adopt Android as their very last effort for a comeback, they will exit the smartphone market sooner or later.

I think we are past that point, Android would simply be another big hole to throw money into - it's not uncommon for companies to find that the market has changed around them and they need to exit to survive (as a smaller company). I don't really think it matters what OS BBRY offers, it's just too small as a company to compete in regards to hardware - it's just a bottomless pit. There could have been a point three or four years ago where they could have made some different decisions and that would have led to a different outcome - but now? I don't see it.

To me - it's the idea of owning a hammer so everything is a nail - a lot of the discussion here is based around the fundamental position that BBRY have always made smartphones therefore must always make smartphones, I think they either decide to get out when they have the choice or being ejected...

[JeepBB]

So WP8 was a new platform built from the ground up?

Posted via CB10

Pretty much, yes.

WP7 is WinCE based, WP8 is rebuilt from the ground up on WinNT.

JBB

[belfastdispatcher]

Pretty much, yes.

WP7 is WinCE based, WP8 is rebuilt from the ground up on WinNT.





JBB

But at least they kept the same UI for a unified experience.


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[kbz1960]

Then you must've missed the OP post, in UK Blackberry is at number 3 based on user base. Start reading from the beginning. I didn't "bring it up", this is the thread subject.

Man this is frustrating


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Well at least post your UK numbers man. Frustrating indeed.

[MarsupilamiX]

I think we are past that point, Android would simply be another big hole to throw money into - it's not uncommon for companies to find that the market has changed around them and they need to exit to survive (as a smaller company). I don't really think it matters what OS BBRY offers, it's just too small as a company to compete in regards to hardware - it's just a bottomless pit. There could have been a point three or four years ago where they could have made some different decisions and that would have led to a different outcome - but now? I don't see it.

To me - it's the idea of owning a hammer so everything is a nail - a lot of the discussion here is based around the fundamental position that BBRY have always made smartphones therefore must always make smartphones, I think they either decide to get out when they have the choice or being ejected...

It's not that I could disagree that much with your statement.
There is my personal preference for BB10 in the current smartphone market, but that doesn't mean that I don't understand what the sale numbers mean.

I've been saying that BlackBerry's biggest problem is that they offer uncompetitive products, for quite some time.
The Z30 is a poor attempt of a flagship and the Q5 was a poor (yet expensive) try to make a mid-range device.

The future 199$ device coming this year, will finally be something in the right direction, but 80$ Android/WP smartphones are already out there for quite some time...
Which means that BlackBerry is late yet again.

There is hope, with the so called mobile computing.
If BlackBerry could really innovate in that area, who knows what might happen.
But overall, I have to kind of agree with your statement.
When you have uncompetitive products, the market will punish you.
So leaving the marketplace, before you get leaved (that makes more sense in German, I hope you get what I mean nonetheless) could definitely be an option.

I am still of the opinion, that a comeback is possible, with very aggressive pricing and marketing moves.
But I also doubt that BlackBerry understands what it takes, to compete in a market with products that have become a commodity.
(IE, an intensified price and spec war combined with immense hurdles of entry)
I agree with your statement considering Android on the other hand. It's probably too late for that now.

Which leaves us with BlackBerry being a SaaS company....
As someone who likes BB10, I don't really like that possibility.

But at least they kept the same UI for a unified experience.


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Which implies that you would have liked for BB10 doing the same?
Totally acceptable, when it comes down to your personal preference.

A ridiculous wish when we look at the UI of BlackBerry's competitors, and their success.

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