BlackBerry is Still Number 3! (UK)
- True dat.
I have no problem with that link OP, thanks for posting as it's generated an interesting debate.
There's certainly confusion between the terms marketshare (new sales) & userbase (phones in hands). And they are often used interchangeably, when they shouldn't.
The sad reality is that, by either metric, BB's slice of that pie is shrinking (seemingly ever faster).
JBB
Sales of both are on their way down.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 02:20 AMLike 0 - Yes you do to make the claims you're making, and thus thread isn't about how many BB10 phones are sold. Or BB7 it's about how many people have a blackberry device in the UK, if you want to discuss BB10 vs BB7 after the previous thread was shut down, start another.. thanks
TechCraze C0008DDD1
Also, I don't want to start another thread, in case you were wondering. I was just making a little comment. I think its perfectly fine to make a comment that isn't 100% related to the title of the thread without having to create an entire new discussion.02-11-14 03:39 AMLike 2 - I really don't get it (and I must say I stopped reading before the mustard burned my nose [this is French expression, but I'm sure you'll get it]).
From earlier readings, I understood some people here just don't like BB10 and praise the goodness of legacy devices and while I'm miles from sharing their point of view, they're absolutely legit claiming so; taste and colors.
Where's the problem ?
- Last time I read about UK sales in these forums, market shares were allegedly "bleeding" and reduced to "dismall". They're not (1).
- Legacy lovers should rejoice, at this will probably lead BBOS7 to last longer and get some improvements
- "New power generation" is glad because it means that there's more cash in the bank than alleged.
How's that it could turn to anything bad in the current context (1) ?
That's good news to me, thanks OP for sharing.
Unless BB have been secretly working on an updated 9900 with BB8 there's nothing to be happy about, this is only prolonging the misery.
It proves one thing, no matter how good BB10 might be it's not what BB users wanted from BlackBerry.
Sure I can use legacy for a while longer but then what?
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 03:47 AMLike 0 - Superfly_FRRetired ModeratorBut BB7 users cannot rejoice, with all cash spent in BB10 there isn't much for BB7 users to look forward to. We can only look back and say "we told you so" , that's about it.
Unless BB have been secretly working on an updated 9900 with BB8 there's nothing to be happy about, this is only prolonging the misery.
It proves one thing, no matter how good BB10 might be it's not what BB users wanted from BlackBerry.
Sure I can use legacy for a while longer but then what?user basemarket share has decreased with such a magnitude during the last 4 years we can really doubt there's anything to expect from legacy users expansion.
It's not about adding speed, specs or UI coating; it's about the whole "philosophy" of the OS. I can perfectly understand that your preference goes to the ancient logic and I even appreciate it, because it helps the transition. But this transition is mandatory and I believe BB10 has far more adaptive capabilities than BBOS7. Legacy has reached a point where adding anything will result in a patchwork while its strength is precisely its finite and well defined features and options.
Let me say it the hard way : future is not anymore with conservative users. At a certain point, you cannot save the goat and the cabbage. That's what BB10 is about and that's why the transition is so touchy.Last edited by Superfly_FR; 02-11-14 at 05:48 AM. Reason: market share VS user base, sry
02-11-14 04:15 AMLike 3 - That's an endless discussion we have all over the forums. If I apply the same reasoning than you, what we can observe is that legacy devices user base shrink-ed with such a magnitude during the last 4 years we can really doubt there's anything to expect from legacy users expansion.
It's not about adding speed, specs or UI coating; it's about the whole "philosophy" of the OS. I can perfectly understand that your preference goes to the ancient logic and I even appreciate it, because it helps the transition. But this transition is mandatory and I believe BB10 has far more adaptive capabilities than BBOS7. Legacy has reached a point where adding anything will result in a patchwork while its strength is precisely its finite and well defined features and options.
Let me say it the hard way : future is not anymore with conservative users. At a certain point, you cannot save the goat and the cabbage. That's what BB10 is about and that's why the transition is so touchy.
Let's not mislead people. User base did not drop for 4 years, far from it.
Also there is no transition to BB10, it was intended but the transition never happened.
Sure you can't save the goat and the cabbage, but you don't trade the goat you have for the cabbage in the field.
Sent from my iPhone using CB ForumsJeepBB likes this.02-11-14 04:20 AMLike 1 - While management thought the transition was mandatory, the user base clearly showed it's not.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 04:30 AMLike 0 - Superfly_FRRetired ModeratorSorry but that's wrong, legacy user base only started shrinking in 2013, the peak was at 80 millions at the end of 2012 clearly coinciding with the BB10 launch. My guess is people waited to see it and then left to other platforms.
Let's not mislead people. User base did not drop for 4 years, far from it.
Also there is no transition to BB10, it was intended but the transition never happened.
Sure you can't save the goat and the cabbage, but you don't trade the goat you have for the cabbage in the field.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 05:47 AMLike 0 - The irony is, while you blame BBOS for the drop in marketshare, BBOS is also the only reason BlackBerry has any marketshare left at all.
With just 5 million BB10devices sold globally in one year and dropping sales, where do you draw the line? When do you say, ok BB10 failed, we need something else if we want to exist in the future?
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 05:59 AMLike 0 - When you say "BB is making money", most people are going to interpret that as PROFITS. Every company generates REVENUE, but the amount of money that passes through the company is not nearly as important as the amount of money they KEEP (or lose).
Sure, the enterprise sector is generating revenue, but less than before (BB had 80,000 corporate customers a couple of years ago - today they have 25,000, with about 20,000 of them still on legacy systems), and revenue from that sector is still projected to fall in the near term as more legacy customers choose other platforms and/or BYOD.
QNX revenues are almost certainly up, but QNX represents only a tiny fraction of BB's revenues. 4 years ago, QNX's total yearly revenues (not profits, but gross income) was only $40M. That's a drop in the bucket for a company the size of BB. I wouldn't be shocked if they've doubled that, but even still, $80M is nothing for BB.
BB's biggest source of revenue, and profits, is handset sales, but those are down to a small fraction of what they were just a couple of years ago. While I don't expect another $4.4B loss this quarter, I'm still expecting a $300-500M loss. There have been no new products for this quarter, no significant advertising, and while there have been a handful of public enterprise contracts, and I'm sure some that haven't been made public, I don't expect this Q's numbers to be much different from last Q's as far as units sold. A couple more quarters like that, and BB won't have much choice but to exist the hardware business IMO.
I totally agree that the OS continues to get better, but the contest hasn't been OS vs. OS since 2009. The contest now is ECOSYSTEM vs. ECOSYSTEM, and when you evaluate the 4 big players in that light, the current market positions make complete sense. BB has, by far, the weakest ecosystem of the 4, and sales reflect that. Until BB can do SOMETHING to make HUGE, MASSIVE improvements to its own ecosystem, I don't see that changing. And I have no idea how BB can do that with the very limited resources they have available.
Chen is doing the best he can with what he was given, and I'd probably have made the same decisions he has, but the odds are still very much against BB being able to continue in the hardware business over the next, say, 2-3 years. The overall company will still be here (Chen is at least that competent, I'm sure), but they may well be a software & services company 2 years from now.Last edited by Skyforever; 02-11-14 at 11:34 PM.
02-11-14 06:02 AMLike 4 - i dont think BBOS 7 will help much...in the end BB userbase and marketshare will keep shrinking with or without BB10. most sales come from emerging market, people pick BBOS than BB10 because it is cheaper...
for me, BB biggest mistake is ignoring the emerging market their stronghold, by selling expensive BB10 phone. while BB more focusing on developed market, their stronghold already taken over by samsung and dozen android vendor...now they trying to switchback their strategy again by developing BB Jakarta for emerging market.
but looks like it is much much harder because people in emerging market already leaving BB for android, BBM available on other platform, and People already look BB brand negatively.
maybe if BB offer cheap BB10 phone before cheap android phone catch people attention.. BB can improve BB10 sales number and make it more popular for buyer and app developerJeepBB likes this.02-11-14 06:06 AMLike 1 - Sorry but that's wrong, legacy user base only started shrinking in 2013, the peak was at 80 millions at the end of 2012 clearly coinciding with the BB10 launch. My guess is people waited to see it and then left to other platforms.
Let's not mislead people. User base did not drop for 4 years, far from it.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
If you compare BlackBerry's market-share in 2010 to late 2012, it declined significantly. This is a fact and it occurred under the BBOS platform.
Take for example the United States , one of BlackBerry's most important markets for a significant part of the decade. In 2010, it was almost 40% of the smartphone market there. At the end of 2012 with still BBOS, it had dwindled to less than 5%.
Even Jim B and Mike L, 2 of the staunchest BBOS supporters, who for years resisted calls from their own employees for building a new OS to compete with Apple and their ios platform saw the writing on the wall.
If there was any way of realistically modifying BBOS to give it the functionality and features that Apple and Android devices had without having to build a new OS from scratch, they would have done so.
The fact is that the public rejected BBOS , so staying with the status quo and continuing to improve it was pointless and would only lead to diminishing returns.
Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z1002-11-14 06:43 AMLike 4 - So the only solution according to garnock, Troy and Belfast is for BlackBerry to close up shop and fold because everything has and will continue to fail so why are they even operating as a company exactly?
This is what I gather from all your posts...unless you have the solutions but just haven't shared them yet (and no BD, it's not to continue selling an OS that has no more room for growth). Come on guys....you all seem to be experts at knocking anything that anyone else says, let's hear your genius ideas because from the sounds of things any one of the 3 of you would have ensured BlackBerry's success had you been in charge. That's too bad that the board wasn't aware of your pure genius earlier on.
Posted via CB10
if you want my suggestion than see the above....BBM and BES as BB main business. BB still can offer phone for government, or corporate high excecutive to support their main business.
and if they want to enter consumer market, their best way is to find other oportunity outside smartphone market....apple can survive and become the most profitable company not because of mac. they gain their momentum with ipod (mp3 player) and become large player with iPhone. many people in CB already discussing about qnx capabilites on car entertainment system...why BB not give better attention on that? it is better to create new large oportunites.JeepBB likes this.02-11-14 06:49 AMLike 1 - Sorry but I have to call you out on that. The most important factor is market-share as a percentage of smartphone users, not the legacy userbase.
If you compare BlackBerry's market-share in 2010 to late 2012, it declined significantly. This is a fact and it occurred under the BBOS platform.
Take for example the United States , one of BlackBerry's most important markets for a significant part of the decade. In 2010, it was almost 40% of the smartphone market there. At the end of 2012 with still BBOS, it had dwindled to less than 5%.
Even Jim B and Mike L, 2 of the staunchest BBOS supporters, who for years resisted calls from their own employees for building a new OS to compete with Apple and their ios platform saw the writing on the wall.
If there was any way of realistically modifying BBOS to give it the functionality and features that Apple and Android devices had without having to build a new OS from scratch, they would have done so.
The fact is that the public rejected BBOS , so staying with the status quo and continuing to improve it was pointless and would only lead to diminishing returns.
Posted via CB10 from my spectacular Z10
Second of all, if the public rejected BBOS that still is at number 3 in UK based on user base, what do you suppose the public thought of BB10 with only 5 million sales in one year? Does that sound like the public accepted it to you? Let's be realistic here.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 06:50 AMLike 0 -
Since BBOS is doomed in the long run (and please, spare me the "it sold millions" comment , because obviously 99% of the market didn't care in 2013) anyway, as is BIS and the revenues associated with it...
What's the future of BlackBerry then?
If it isn't BB10, then BlackBerry can close their phone business anyhow.
(I am open for discussions about a secure Android version from BlackBerry, but this is considered heresy by some members in here... Anyhow, BBOS isn't the future of BlackBerry as well, since the consumers have voted against it with their wallets.)
Posted via CB1002-11-14 06:53 AMLike 3 -
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 06:56 AMLike 0 - And BBOS failed even harder, since it got some serious competition with the iPhone and Android.
Since BBOS is doomed in the long run (and please, spare me the "it sold millions" comment , because obviously 99% of the market didn't care in 2013) anyway, as is BIS and the revenues associated with it...
What's the future of BlackBerry then?
If it isn't BB10, then BlackBerry can close their phone business anyhow.
(I am open for discussions about a secure Android version from BlackBerry, but this is considered heresy by some members in here... Anyhow, BBOS isn't the future of BlackBerry as well, since the consumers have voted against it with their wallets.)
Posted via CB10
That's why I think an assessment based on BBOS or BB10 is the wrong one, they are both zombie OSes - it's just that one is slowly dying and the other was DOA.02-11-14 06:58 AMLike 2 - Man save it, he doesn't get that BBOS had very little competitors in their days of selling millions. He also doesn't get that a brand new built from scratch platform today selling 5 million is actually not as bad as he thinks it is. I would venture to guess no other company introducing a brand new platform could do that. It will need time and attention for it to grow.
Posted via CB1002-11-14 07:01 AMLike 2 - Given the size of the sector, the number of markets it was released in, it is actually pretty dreadful - you are maybe looking at sub-200,000 in some markets across 4 handset designs (although the Z30 and the Q5 were both likely bombs and account for a small amount). The bigger problem is that the platform doesn't seem to have ramped - the most recent phone was released on few carriers than the first and with virtually no marketing, so it is likely the first year of sales was also the peak and we are now in decline.
Posted via CB1002-11-14 07:04 AMLike 0 - There is no discussion with you man. And how about you use some logic and think as to why the numbers are the way they are. You have Balsile syndrome. BBOS had almost zero competitors and this sold millions...does that make sense to you. IT has been failing for sometime and they needed to change because the competitors would and did leave that ancient platform behind in the dust. You can argue that all you want....its the case.
Posted via CB10
What do you suggest BB should do about them since thy don't want BB10 clearly? I suggest they give them a phone they're used to and like.
Would you rather they hand them on a plate to other platforms?
What's your solution? And please don't say BB10 because that clearly ain't happening.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums02-11-14 07:09 AMLike 0 -
but it is not about how many people buy it at launch, but its about how the sales number grow each quarter... if BBRY and investors satisfied with number you mention BBRY will not lost billion dollars, fired CEO who launch BB10 platform, put the company for sales, losing large marketshare and userbase number, cancel sales of the company because the buyers dont get loan from the bank (rumour)JeepBB likes this.02-11-14 07:14 AMLike 1 - First of all, this thread is about user base, NOT marketshare.
Second of all, if the public rejected BBOS that still is at number 3 in UK based on user base, what do you suppose the public thought of BB10 with only 5 million sales in one year? Does that sound like the public accepted it to you? Let's be realistic here.
Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums
The HP Touchpad was out of stock after they decided to make a fire sale for 99$.
Does that mean that most tablet buyers accepted it?
Those fails at a basic level of logic are irritating.
I completely agree that BBOS is not the future, the problem is that BB10 is a market failure and I don't think that Blackberry had the time or resources to turn that around or even the intent to do so (look at how the Z30 was pushed out in the cold to die). I think that Chen is trying to build a lean enterprise services company as quickly as possible and that the deal with Foxconn is simply a prelude to selling off the hardware side.
That's why I think an assessment based on BBOS or BB10 is the wrong one, they are both zombie OSes - it's just that one is slowly dying and the other was DOA.
The choice of BlackBerry's market positioning with their devices was what made it fail, combined with an incredibly lethargic response to the iPhone.
BB10 came like.... 6 years to late?
Then we should pose the question of whom BlackBerry was kidding with the Q5 and its price (same goes for the PlayBook and the Z30 in my opinion) for example?
Then they had no real marketing push, a bastardised ecosystem relying on an Android app player without native apps, and a 1.0 software version with the Z10, that kind of felt like a beta version.
These are all immense troubles when it comes down to execution.
Issues, a once market leading company obviously shouldn't have had.
I do appreciate your POV, since you openly admit that BBOS can't be a solution.
I guess that the difference in the way we look at the market, stems from the fact of me not seeing BB10 itself as a bad product.
What I see is one executional fail after another.
Posted via CB1002-11-14 07:17 AMLike 4 -
- Superfly_FRRetired ModeratorI just don't say BB10 failed. Instead I pretend BBOS exagerated life support lead us into the deep ... and recovery was such a challenge even a perfect OS couldn't do magic in a snap ...02-11-14 07:19 AMLike 0
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- like you see in the graph userbase still not declining because android and apple is still new in the market, after sales growth quarter after quarter android and apple become the hottest mobile platform, attracting new smartphone users and in the endis it is affecting BB number because many people move to android and ios02-11-14 07:24 AMLike 0
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