[belfastdispatcher]

Is loosing features and services "moving forward"?

PS I'd actually love a rotary phone


Sent from my iPhone using CB Forums

[SubCamp]

Third is good but First is the best.. nothing to celebrate if you're not the best

Posted via CB10

[Troy Tiscareno]

My point is that BlackBerry is still making money Legacy BES or otherwise.

If that's the case, then how do you explain the $4.4 billion LOSS in the last quarter alone, with over $1.1B of that being CASH? How do you explain the need to take on $1.25B in debt, at 6% interest, just to survive?

Gross revenues are not the same as profits.

[Bbnivende]

I agreed with everything you said above, except this (which I realise you posed as a question)

In a reality where Chen says the upcoming Jakarta phone will be "under $200" (which we all, I suspect, understand to mean it'll be $199)... a BB Lumia 520-u-like equivalent/competitor is simply a dream!

Yes it will be very interesting to see what Foxconn can build and sell for $200. I am wondering if we might see iphone 5C build quality and with a screen that is larger than the Lumia 520. They will be selling to markets where BlackBerry does not carry such a negative stigma . If it is too much like the 5C they would not likely try to sell it in the UK.

[hamsterwheel]

Last I checked, Legacy devices are still BlackBerry devices no? So even if they are the cause of this number 3 position, that's relatively good news right?

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

Yes it will be very interesting to see what Foxconn can build and sell for $200. I am wondering if we might see iphone 5C build quality and with a screen that is larger than the Lumia 520. They will be selling to markets where BlackBerry does not carry such a negative stigma . If it is too much like the 5C they would not likely try to sell it in the UK.

I "think" BlackBerry now realizes that they can't ask for 200% profit on devices. That said, I'm pretty sure that Foxconn isn't going to build anything close to a 5C type quality and BlackBerry be able to sell it for under $200. It cost Apple, who has much greater buying power about $173 to build the 5C.... Other than the 2GB of ram it will need to have, I'm betting the specs on the Jakarta are going to be pretty basic.

And with the Z10 being a year old and no replacement in site, I imagine it's price is going to get cut so there really isn't a need for a Z5 type device in many markets.

[JeepBB]

Last I checked, Legacy devices are still BlackBerry devices no? So even if they are the cause of this number 3 position, that's relatively good news right?

You'd think so, wouldn't you?

However, I think it unlikely that BB Execs are turning cartwheels over this news.

As has been mentioned above, that #3 position is almost entirely due to legacy devices. However, fewer legacy handsets are sold every quarter, and it is unlikely that the "new" legacy sales outweigh the numbers of legacy BB owners leaving for another platform. I say "unlikely" because I can't prove that subscriber losses exceed gains, but BB's refusal to publish subscriber numbers anymore speaks loudly to me being correct.

Now those userbase losses might be OK, or lessened, if the legacy guys were swapping over to a BB10 phone but, given the pitiful BB10 global sales, ex-legacy users clearly aren't buying BB10 phones in any significant numbers. So that user base will inevitably shrink as consumers look elsewhere for their next phone.

The conclusion, for me, seems to be that the userbase will become a steadily shrinking group of diehard legacy hold-outs who love BB7, but have no fond feelings for BB10. When their legacy phones finally break, I suspect many of them will jump to iOS or Android. It may seem perverse to suggest the BB holdouts who love BB7 so much will leave BB altogether, but I reckon they'll conclude that if they can't have BB7... they might at least not have BB7 but with compensatory extras... such as Apple/Android's vast ecosystem.

So, no cartwheels...

[TommiTommi]

I've got two BB7 devices and a playbook and use them all constantly. I want BB10 but I'm waiting to see what phones they bring out in 2014. If I'm honest I wouldn't buy another BB7 device, I just feel like I've 'done that' and want something new. I also go to London tons for work and just from looking round on the train etc I would say 50% of people in suits (including me) use a BB. Bold 9900 and the more recent curves are the most popular, I have yet to see a BB10 device in the wild.

[Mo Cat]

Nooo, BlackBerry is number 1.

[bigglybobblyboo]

I've got two BB7 devices and a playbook and use them all constantly. I want BB10 but I'm waiting to see what phones they bring out in 2014. If I'm honest I wouldn't buy another BB7 device, I just feel like I've 'done that' and want something new. I also go to London tons for work and just from looking round on the train etc I would say 50% of people in suits (including me) use a BB. Bold 9900 and the more recent curves are the most popular, I have yet to see a BB10 device in the wild.

Z10 here mate since last Feb! If you could have come into our company meeting in Jan there were over 40 BB10's in the room (ok, it was up North so it might have been something of a trip just to see a load of happy Z10, Q10 And Z30 owner's )...

Wanna try something different, amazing and yet strangely familiar?

Go BB10...!

Posted via CB10

[SomeoneOrOther]

My health department bought a bunch of Q10s at end of last year (10 handsets I think)...it's a compact phone with a keyboard, what's not to like?

But my own personal phone is the Z10...I can't see myself going back to an iphone. What a sweet phone the Z10 really is....and such a bloody shame it's not in the hands of more people.

[Superfly_FR]

I really don't get it (and I must say I stopped reading before the mustard burned my nose [this is French expression, but I'm sure you'll get it]).
From earlier readings, I understood some people here just don't like BB10 and praise the goodness of legacy devices and while I'm miles from sharing their point of view, they're absolutely legit claiming so; taste and colors.

Where's the problem ?
- Last time I read about UK sales in these forums, market shares were allegedly "bleeding" and reduced to "dismall". They're not (1).
- Legacy lovers should rejoice, at this will probably lead BBOS7 to last longer and get some improvements
- "New power generation" is glad because it means that there's more cash in the bank than alleged.

How's that it could turn to anything bad in the current context (1) ?

That's good news to me, thanks OP for sharing.

[garnok]

double post sorry

[garnok]

I really don't get it (and I must say I stopped reading before the mustard burned my nose [this is French expression, but I'm sure you'll get it]).
From earlier readings, I understood some people here just don't like BB10 and praise the goodness of legacy devices and while I'm miles from sharing their point of view, they're absolutely legit claiming so; taste and colors.

Where's the problem ?
- Last time I read about UK sales in these forums, market shares were allegedly "bleeding" and reduced to "dismall". They're not (1).
- Legacy lovers should rejoice, at this will probably lead BBOS7 to last longer and get some improvements
- "New power generation" is glad because it means that there's more cash in the bank than alleged.

How's that it could turn to anything bad in the current context (1) ?

That's good news to me, thanks OP for sharing.

BB marketshare are bleeding in the GB..last quarter result they only have 3.2% marketshare down from 6%, while WP8 marketshare in GB increase to 11% according to kantar

what money ? from kantar and OP sources it means BB userbase are dropping, and they are losing marketshare....

people in here should know the difference between marketshare (new sales) and userbase

[Skyforever]

If that's the case, then how do you explain the $4.4 billion LOSS in the last quarter alone, with over $1.1B of that being CASH? How do you explain the need to take on $1.25B in debt, at 6% interest, just to survive?

Gross revenues are not the same as profits.

No one is saying that BlackBerry has not lost money. What I'm saying is BlackBerry continues to make money from the enterprise sector, and QNX sector. As you know, these represent two of 4 sectors which BlackBerry is now made up of under John Chen. I would add, with Foxconn's help, it would not surprise me if the third sector (phones/hardware) started to make money lets say by 2015. After all BlackBerry is ready for the long haul. That is why they borrowed the money. The phones are already great, and I expect with QNX they will only get better.

[Superfly_FR]

people in here should know the difference between marketshare (new sales) and userbase

Your corrections make sense. I'm probably not clear enough, but if you compare "bleeding" with "dropping" and "dismall" with "losing marketshare" ... you'll get what I mean : That's not good news as such, just better than expected.

P.S: Userbase with legacy devices are revenues. that's the BIS effect ... another positive point for legacies

[Jas00555]

I have very serious doubts when it comes to the link that the OP described. According to the article, WP has a 2% market share, but every other article I've seen has said that WP has over 10% market share. Either the OP is wrong, or the rest of the world is wrong.

Just one of the many articles that contradict the OP : http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/385180/w...hare-in-europe
Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!

[garnok]

Your corrections make sense. I'm probably not clear enough, but if you compare "bleeding" with "dropping" and "dismall" with "losing marketshare" ... you'll get what I mean : That's not good news as such, just better than expected.

P.S: Userbase with legacy devices are revenues. that's the BIS effect ... another positive point for legacies

their userbase are keep dropping, its not a good sign for BB, it means their revenue from BIS are become smaller and smaller.

[Pkimmd]

I like how I scroll down and find: (Reuters) Kaspersky Says Banking Apps on Android Phones are Most Vulnerable to Cybercrime

[Troy Tiscareno]

No one is saying that BlackBerry has not lost money. What I'm saying is BlackBerry continues to make money from the enterprise sector, and QNX sector. As you know, these represent two of 4 sectors which BlackBerry is now made up of under John Chen. I would add, with Foxconn's help, it would not surprise me if the third sector (phones/hardware) started to make money lets say by 2015. After all BlackBerry is ready for the long haul. That is why they borrowed the money. The phones are already great, and I expect with QNX they will only get better.

When you say "BB is making money", most people are going to interpret that as PROFITS. Every company generates REVENUE, but the amount of money that passes through the company is not nearly as important as the amount of money they KEEP (or lose).

Sure, the enterprise sector is generating revenue, but less than before (BB had 80,000 corporate customers a couple of years ago - today they have 25,000, with about 20,000 of them still on legacy systems), and revenue from that sector is still projected to fall in the near term as more legacy customers choose other platforms and/or BYOD.

QNX revenues are almost certainly up, but QNX represents only a tiny fraction of BB's revenues. 4 years ago, QNX's total yearly revenues (not profits, but gross income) was only $40M. That's a drop in the bucket for a company the size of BB. I wouldn't be shocked if they've doubled that, but even still, $80M is nothing for BB.

BB's biggest source of revenue, and profits, is handset sales, but those are down to a small fraction of what they were just a couple of years ago. While I don't expect another $4.4B loss this quarter, I'm still expecting a $300-500M loss. There have been no new products for this quarter, no significant advertising, and while there have been a handful of public enterprise contracts, and I'm sure some that haven't been made public, I don't expect this Q's numbers to be much different from last Q's as far as units sold. A couple more quarters like that, and BB won't have much choice but to exist the hardware business IMO.

I totally agree that the OS continues to get better, but the contest hasn't been OS vs. OS since 2009. The contest now is ECOSYSTEM vs. ECOSYSTEM, and when you evaluate the 4 big players in that light, the current market positions make complete sense. BB has, by far, the weakest ecosystem of the 4, and sales reflect that. Until BB can do SOMETHING to make HUGE, MASSIVE improvements to its own ecosystem, I don't see that changing. And I have no idea how BB can do that with the very limited resources they have available.

Chen is doing the best he can with what he was given, and I'd probably have made the same decisions he has, but the odds are still very much against BB being able to continue in the hardware business over the next, say, 2-3 years. The overall company will still be here (Chen is at least that competent, I'm sure), but they may well be a software & services company 2 years from now.

[milo53]

After a year I would have thought that BB10 would have sold more. But of course it won't ....because 90% of people only know about legacy devices, and know that they either love them or would never give them up, or that they freeze and reboot and no Blackberry will ever darken their door again. Most really don't understand that BB10 is totally differnet and it even has better specs than a lot of other phones on the market. Users go into phone shops to replace their freezing old 8520 and won't even look at the BB10 stand cos they don't want another phone that freezes....as they think it will. Sales people don't push BB as they push Samsung, Apple etc.

And I think this is down to lack of advertising. Every evening there is a mobile ad on TV, a close up of the phone, showing features, pointing out what it will do.

Around the launch of BB10 last year Blackberry took too much notice of the no doubt expensive marketing company that did their TV ad and too much emphasis on 'keep moving'....which to most of the public meant nothing. The ad only had a couple of quick glimpses of the phone features....with most of the ad concerned with random people skipping from scene to scene. The ads didn't show off the phones properly.

And so we are left with no money in the budget to advertise, last years advertising opportunity wasted, and most only knowing legacy.

When Blackberry post a feature post on their page on FB the comments come in thick and fast.....even though it is a BB10 post...."rubbish phones, they always freeze" etc....the poster not being even aware that BB10 has 16GB of memory against legacy with at most 100mbs free....except for the Bold before anyone jumps in to correct me.

So, if Blackberry want to keep going in the handset market, if tbey want BB10 to succeed, tbey need to advertise....and not overly expensise "too clever". ads like last time, but close ups on screen on the phone, show the features, prime time TV.

Poeople see and people want....

Arrogance and Ego. A year ago these dudes in charge thought this thing would catch fire, Alicia Keys and Super Bowl ads were icing! In the USA, no one could touch a zed10 for almost 3 months after launch, all the buzz had passed, all positive reviews, surprisingly, quieted. The carriers were left floundering. Returns were high because poor training.

Meanwhile Heins and company were purchasing a new Jet. They really thought this thing was wrapped up, sadly.

Now we have another Corporate Jet lover, hope he earns it!

[tinochiko]

I have very serious doubts when it comes to the link that the OP described. According to the article, WP has a 2% market share, but every other article I've seen has said that WP has over 10% market share. Either the OP is wrong, or the rest of the world is wrong.

Just one of the many articles that contradict the OP : http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/385180/w...hare-in-europe
Posted via the Android CrackBerry App!

Article says nothing about market share, read again..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

[Dylan Garcia2]

maybe Nokia , as they have lots of advertising also a whole range of offers in stores, still see blackberrys , but samsung and apple are huge

[belfastdispatcher]

What I don't understand is how they continue to base their future on a product that simply doesn't sell. They'd have to triple the BB10 sales just to catch up with the 3 year old BBOS sales, or 10 times to catch up with what BBOS used to sell 3 years ago.

How re they gonna pull that off? It's not gonna happen.

In the meantime they only survive because there's a certain user base out there that prefers or chooses BBOS.


I just don't get the business model. Are they gonna stop only when they're deep into debt and administrators are called in? Because that's where they're heading.


Maybe it's a pride thing, they just can't admit they failed.


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[JeepBB]

Article says nothing about market share, read again..

TechCraze C0008DDD1

True dat.

I have no problem with that link OP, thanks for posting as it's generated an interesting debate.

There's certainly confusion between the terms marketshare (new sales) & userbase (phones in hands). And they are often used interchangeably, when they shouldn't.

The sad reality is that, by either metric, BB's slice of that pie is shrinking (seemingly ever faster).



JBB