06-08-16 10:46 AM
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  1. Jack Chin's Avatar
    I wonder if they decided their was a need for an Android Runtime so early in development... why they didn't choose Linux?

    No special QNX hardware drivers, no full runtime would have been required, many more developers out there with Linux experience.... Was it so hard to "secure" Linux back then? Or was it that BlackBerry didn't want their OS to be part of anything even close to "open"?
    And, continuing that last thought, did ML prefer a local Canadian product--particularly one with U. Waterloo ties? I don't recall: Did Dodge and ML know each other at UW? They were there at the same time.

    Also, Waterloo, for all its well-deserved laurels, is not Silicon Valley. The network effects of a business/education cluster are huge. RIM in Waterloo was somewhat like a K-Mart located in an obscure part of town while Wal-Mart, the mall, and everything else is thriving in a modern business district on the other end. It's tough to compete for good employees in that scenario.


    Posted via CB10
    05-31-16 01:32 PM
  2. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    And, continuing that last thought, did ML prefer a local Canadian product--particularly one with U. Waterloo ties? I don't recall: Did Dodge and ML know each other at UW? They were there at the same time.

    Also, Waterloo, for all its well-deserved laurels, is not Silicon Valley. The network effects of a business/education cluster are huge. RIM in Waterloo was somewhat like a K-Mart located in an obscure part of town while Wal-Mart, the mall, and everything else is thriving in a modern business district on the other end. It's tough to compete for good employees in that scenario.


    Posted via CB10
    Very true... maybe he wanted to keep it local.

    Me... I still can't believe that there wasn't a "new" OS already being worked on somewhere in BlackBerry R&D in 2008, much less 2010.
    05-31-16 01:42 PM
  3. Jerry A's Avatar
    I wonder if they decided their was a need for an Android Runtime so early in development... why they didn't choose Linux?

    No special QNX hardware drivers, no full runtime would have been required, many more developers out there with Linux experience.... Was it so hard to "secure" Linux back then? Or was it that BlackBerry didn't want their OS to be part of anything even close to "open"?
    My take is that Mike L. wanted to control the horizontal and vertical, hence the reason for buying QNX instead of leveraging Linux or one of the BSDs.

    As for Open Source, don't think that was an issue. QNX had opened a bunch of its code years before the acquisition. RIM closed it again after the acquisition.

    Honestly, I think the reason for the Linux runtime goes something like this (pure speculation on my part):

    AS: "Hey, I just got back from meeting with all the major app services and developers. None of them want to jump on BB10, especially after the PlayBook fiasco."

    ML: "Don't they know we're BlackBerry? What can we do to make them coming over easier?"

    AS: "?????"

    ML: "Why not run their Linux apps on BB10? They can't say no if they don't have to write a new app. It'll be a quick porting effort. Drop everything else and get a runtime going."

    Add a 1+ year delay to launch and Bob's your uncle.
    Troy Tiscareno likes this.
    05-31-16 02:01 PM
  4. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    AS: "Hey, I just got back from meeting with all the major app services and developers. None of them want to jump on BB10, especially after the PlayBook fiasco."

    ML: "Don't they know we're BlackBerry? What can we do to make them coming over easier?"

    AS: "?????"

    ML: "Why not run their Linux apps on BB10? They can't say no if they don't have to write a new app. It'll be a quick porting effort. Drop everything else and get a runtime going."
    The PlayBook had the android runtime and the fiasco was not yet in the rear view mirror.
    05-31-16 02:18 PM
  5. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    The PlayBook had the android runtime and the fiasco was not yet in the rear view mirror.
    Yeah they had the foresite pretty early on that it would be hard to get developers on board for recording their Apps. The runtime seemed at that time to be a brilliant solution, and too be honest must not have been too much work as it was part of the PlayBooks release. What they failed to consider was... what if developers treated BB10 the same as they treated the PlayBook? Which with two more years of delays was pretty much a forgone conclusion.

    I still wish we had seen a pure QNX OS.... but in 2010 Android would have been the smarter play.
    05-31-16 03:43 PM
  6. eshropshire's Avatar
    He is aware of this fact and the short comings of the QNX system ( monetization) .He has started the focus on software.

    Analyst interest have already been peaked at what this can do for Blackberrys ' bottom line.

    The self driving race is just started and BlackBerry has joined in, the recent CES in Las Vegas premiered the Toyota Highlander with the QNX technology at its core.
    This, on top of the use in other IOT leaves the potential for growth wide open.

    Why would they want to "sell" this technology? I'm sorry to disagree with you on the point that they would even consider trying to "sell" it.

    Again even Apple utilizes this technology if it's such a waste as you are implying there would be NO takers in this sphere.

    BlackBerry isn't going to be number one at anything in the short to medium term, nor do they need to be. They just need to be profitable company.

    My personal opinion would be to take the company private and let growth be had without the pressures of the markets and investors.

    Time is what's needed to allow for re growth and rebirth. It will happen but not over night.



    Posted via CB10
    And why would private investors want to buy BlackBerry. You take a company private that has a strong positive cash flow. Investors for some strange reason expect to get money back for their investment. BlackBerry would have to completely restructure to go private.
    05-31-16 04:38 PM
  7. app_Developer's Avatar
    And why would private investors want to buy BlackBerry. You take a company private that has a strong positive cash flow. Investors for some strange reason expect to get money back for their investment. BlackBerry would have to completely restructure to go private.
    Yeah, if you don't like being accountable to the public (which really means funds like Fairfax), then just wait until you've been taken "private" by PE. They would cut the phone business on day 1.
    05-31-16 05:46 PM
  8. Jerry A's Avatar
    The PlayBook had the android runtime and the fiasco was not yet in the rear view mirror.
    Not during the launch. Thought Android was added during the 2.0 OS version (or was it 1.2?)

    If I recall correctly, work on the Linux runtime didn't start until 2012. There were a bunch of news stories at the time about that particular engineering feat.

    But I admit that I may be getting dates confused.
    05-31-16 08:09 PM
  9. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Not during the launch. Thought Android was added during the 2.0 OS version (or was it 1.2?)

    If I recall correctly, work on the Linux runtime didn't start until 2012. There were a bunch of news stories at the time about that particular engineering feat.

    But I admit that I may be getting dates confused.
    But the PlayBook had the runtime quite a while before the release of BB10.
    The Playbook OS was a test mule for BB10.
    Things must have been smelling like Limburger for them to even consider the ART.
    Also they were bound and determined that Adobe Air was going to be the way forward.
    Cascades came to the fore only when they realized that Air wasn't gaining acceptance.
    05-31-16 08:21 PM
  10. Jerry A's Avatar
    But the PlayBook had the way runtime quite a while before the release of BB10.
    The Playbook OS was a test mule for BB10.
    Things were starting to smell like Limburger for them to even consider the ART.
    Also they were bound and determined that Adobe Air was going to be the way forward.
    Cascades came to the fore only when they realized that Air wasn't gaining acceptance.
    Totally agree with you. Just don't recall Android at launch (2011) on the PB. Pretty sure that came later.
    05-31-16 08:24 PM
  11. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    And why would private investors want to buy BlackBerry. You take a company private that has a strong positive cash flow. Investors for some strange reason expect to get money back for their investment. BlackBerry would have to completely restructure to go private.
    I don't know why, please enlighten me.

    Posted via CB10
    05-31-16 09:27 PM
  12. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    I don't know that this is scientific. iOS and Android users tend to use more apps, and iPhones in particular have tiny batteries compared to like the Z30 or the Passport.

    What I've seen in my experience is that iPhones have more consistent battery life (fewer wild swings) and tend to run cooler.



    That is not what RT even means. It has nothing to do with that.

    BTW, if you write an app that freezes on iOS or Android, it is also killed by the OS watchdog. But that has absolutely nothing to do with an RT scheduler.
    Nothing you have said proves your assumption that a RT OS and in this case QNX is not the right choice for a phone. BB10 works better than iOS and Android in terms of functionality and security. The reason for the security is the QNX design.
    DonHB likes this.
    06-01-16 06:25 AM
  13. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Digging through troy post lol found one from a few about his post regards RTOS
    That post doesn't have any proof that a RT OS (QNX) isn't a good choice for a mobile phone.
    DonHB likes this.
    06-01-16 06:27 AM
  14. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    I think that's exactly right. A modern smartphone is very different from the typical QNX applications. I think QNX is excellent for other applications, but a poor fit for phones.

    If BB10 had been built on Linux, I think they would have launched much earlier, they would have reduced the cost of adopting the latest hardware, and they could have had more compelling low/mid end devices. I don't know if all of that would have been enough to save BB10, but I think building on QNX did put them at a serious disadvantage.
    It would also have been insecure as the Priv currently is and no Android manufacture is making any profits. BB10 and it's security set BlackBerry apart in the Enterprise space. And you can say things now about MM, but MM wasn't available when BB10 was released. Android at the time BlackBerry started creating BB10 from QNX was a mess in terms of design and functionality. That is a big point that those who say that BlackBerry should have gone Android miss when they make those statements. When BlackBerry was looking to replace BBOS, the only Android version available was 1.5. Are you telling me that Android 1.5 was what BlackBerry should have used for secure Enterprise phones?
    06-01-16 06:35 AM
  15. app_Developer's Avatar
    It would also have been insecure as the Priv currently is and no Android manufacture is making any profits. BB10 and it's security set BlackBerry apart in the Enterprise space. And you can say things now about MM, but MM wasn't available when BB10 was released. Android at the time BlackBerry started creating BB10 from QNX was a mess in terms of design and functionality. That is a big point that those who say that BlackBerry should have gone Android miss when they make those statements. When BlackBerry was looking to replace BBOS, the only Android version available was 1.5. Are you telling me that Android 1.5 was what BlackBerry should have used for secure Enterprise phones?
    I'm not saying they should have built on or even touched Android, I'm saying they should have built BB10 on Linux.
    06-01-16 06:58 AM
  16. app_Developer's Avatar
    Nothing you have said proves your assumption that a RT OS and in this case QNX is not the right choice for a phone. BB10 works better than iOS and Android in terms of functionality and security. The reason for the security is the QNX design.
    What is the impact of an RT scheduler on security?
    06-01-16 07:11 AM
  17. Jack Chin's Avatar
    It would also have been insecure as the Priv currently is and no Android manufacture is making any profits. BB10 and it's security set BlackBerry apart in the Enterprise space. And you can say things now about MM, but MM wasn't available when BB10 was released. Android at the time BlackBerry started creating BB10 from QNX was a mess in terms of design and functionality. That is a big point that those who say that BlackBerry should have gone Android miss when they make those statements. When BlackBerry was looking to replace BBOS, the only Android version available was 1.5. Are you telling me that Android 1.5 was what BlackBerry should have used for secure Enterprise phones?
    Well, surely there are *some* Android manufacturers making profits.

    And the objective was profitability in the handset space, not forcing an enterprise solution for its own sake, regardless of profitability, like some religious act. We can see that given BB10's subsequent abysmal sales record, RIM need never have bothered. They would have been better off by (tens of?) billions of dollars merely by ceasing production, once they'd been caught off-guard when the market shifted.



    Posted via CB10
    Troy Tiscareno and Jerry A like this.
    06-01-16 08:17 AM
  18. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Well, surely there are *some* Android manufacturers making profits.

    And the objective was profitability in the handset space, not forcing an enterprise solution for its own sake, regardless of profitability, like some religious act. We can see that given BB10's subsequent abysmal sales record, RIM need never have bothered. They would have been better off by (tens of?) billions of dollars merely by ceasing production, once they'd been caught off-guard when the market shifted.

    Posted via CB10
    Check the quarterly reports for them and look at the mobile phone division. Samsung is the only one making a little profit.

    Apple accounted for 91% of smartphone profits last year

    Take a look at the chart for mobile profit market share and tell me that BlackBerry is going to do better with Android.

    And they had to provide at the time an end to end solution which could only be accomplished by making a phone. The only space that they are still living is the enterprise space. They are and always have been a enterprise services company who's phones were the fad to the public.
    06-01-16 08:39 AM
  19. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    I'm not saying they should have built on or even touched Android, I'm saying they should have built BB10 on Linux.
    LOL. So in your opinion, BlackBerry should have gone linux like the successful Open webOS, Jolla Sailfish, Samsung Tizen, Amazon Fire OS, Ubuntu Phone and Firefox OS.
    Yasch22 likes this.
    06-01-16 08:44 AM
  20. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    What is the impact of an RT scheduler on security?
    Don't know why you just focus on the RT scheduler when it is the RT OS that we are talking about.

    BlackBerry made the decision for a few reasons. Take the time to read why BlackBerry choose QNX for security.

    https://www.troopers.de/media/filer_...l-aint-one.pdf

    https://labs.mwrinfosecurity.com/***...2016-03-14.pdf

    Also because of the design, there are about 1/4 of the kernel calls needed to function the same with QNX which means less possible vulnerabilities.
    DonHB likes this.
    06-01-16 09:07 AM
  21. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    LOL. So in your opinion, BlackBerry should have gone linux like the successful Open webOS, Jolla Sailfish, Samsung Tizen, Amazon Fire OS, Ubuntu Phone and Firefox OS.
    I don't think any of us really have an answer for what BlackBerry should have done in 2010....

    It's what they should have done in 2005 that would have made any difference. If Mike and Jim has said "hey this pager OS has gone as far as it really can, where should we go now.".... Moving to a new OS built on any kernel in 2005, with a projected release in 2007/2008 would have made a difference.

    Looking back to 2010.... Palm sold for only $1.2 Billion, seems pretty cheap compared to what has been spent on BB10 in money and more importantly in time.
    DrBoomBotz likes this.
    06-01-16 09:08 AM
  22. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    Also because of the design, there are about 1/4 of the kernel calls needed to function the same with QNX which means less possible vulnerabilities.
    That's because it's a micro kernel not because it's an rtos.
    DonHB likes this.
    06-01-16 10:18 AM
  23. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    That's because it's a micro kernel not because it's an rtos.
    You can't separate the two in QNX. QNX is a micro kernel RTOS. So any discussion of QNX being wrong for cell phones needs to use QNX as a whole.
    06-01-16 11:41 AM
  24. DrBoomBotz's Avatar
    You can't separate the two in QNX. QNX is a micro kernel RTOS. So any discussion of QNX being wrong for cell phones needs to use QNX as a whole.
    Some kernels are micro and some kernels are RT and some are both.
    The reason QNX has less kernel calls is because the kernel does less and user-space does more.
    I can certainly talk about this facet of QNX without talking about its RTOS characteristics.
    DonHB likes this.
    06-01-16 11:53 AM
  25. Bluenoser63's Avatar
    Some kernels are micro and some kernels are RT and some are both.
    The reason QNX has less kernel calls is because the kernel does less and user-space does more.
    I can certainly talk about this facet of QNX without talking about its RTOS characteristics.
    But could BlackBerry release QNX without it being a RTOS? No. QNX is what it is.
    06-01-16 11:57 AM
187 12345 ...

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