[soarest]

Well, I pretty much love all the concepts except for the massive 5' screen. I personally think even the z30 is just too big.

I mean 5' screen with a slider keyboard will make it like 7' in length. I don't know...

Another thing I would like to comment on is the touch key. I love dedicated keys (even better if customizable) for dialing and bbm. Would love to make the trackpad flat so that bb10 gesture will remain consistent.

Last, Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

Posted via CB10

[RyanGermann]

Well, I pretty much love all the concepts except for the massive 5' screen. I personally think even the z30 is just too big.

The beauty of this device having the keyboard and the hard buttons and track pad is that unlike other 5" screen devices, you can still operate it with one hand. The Trackpad is a mouse, a mouse pointer appears on BB10 when there is a "mouse" or pointing device (like the touchpad on the PlayBook bluetooth keyboard) so you can navigate around the screen with just the thumb on the TrackPad, and click the TrackPad button instead of trying to reach up to the top of that 5" screen with just your thumb.

That's what makes this the ultimate mobile device: hide the keyboard, ignore the hard buttons to your hearts desire and use the device one- or two-handed with just your thumb and / or index finger as you would any other full slab device... slide up the keyboard and use two hands (thumbs) to type and use the mouse (TrackPad) to select and cut / copy / paste text (a lot faster and more precise than with just a touchscreen, and no, trying to state otherwise is not credible) and then when you're relaxing and sipping your coffee with one hand, you're able to operate the device casually with one hand with the keyboard extended and a thumb hovering comfortably on the trackpad... or hide the keyboard and use the device full screen with 1 hand like any other 5" device (problematic for people with small hands).

To those suggesting that for BlackBerry to issue a device with the hard buttons - track pad is some kind of "backward looking" thing, not modern enough whatever:

BB10 is a no-trackpad design that can adapt to accommodate a trackpad and hard buttons (because it already supports them via bluetooth keyboard / mouse support) so there's no work to do in the OS to support the hardware buttons and trackpad and no, your user experience will not change one bit if BB does decide to release a device like this.

And to those worried that "blackberry will look pathetic in the eyes of the media if they go back to BBOS7 hardware".... SERIOUSLY? You're worried NOW about "blackberry looking pathetic"??? WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN FOR THE LAST 3 YEARS????

Ahem.

BlackBerry has nothing to "lose" by honoring their own established successes in the hardware design market, and if the sheer numbers of people still clinging to their BBOS devices (I think it maybe be as many as 20 TIMES MORE BBOS7 USERS THAN BB10 USERS) I really REALLY think you must rethink your position on how BlackBerry should reflect on their hardware designs. They've built you your no-hard-buttons devices, you own them you love them... but most people DON'T own them and DON'T love them, and ANYTHING that BlackBerry can do to make OTHER people besides YOU love them and own them is good... don't begrudge BlackBerry additional success in the market because YOU already bought in to BB10: 60 million BBOS users HAVEN'T bought into BB10 for various reasons, and the hardware design differences between current BB10 devices and BBOS devices are one of the reasons.

Wouldn't you just bash your head against the wall if Samsung released a device with the BBOS device form factor running Android with BBM preinstaled and it was a huge hit and BBOS users dropped their BBOS devices and bought it, and ditched BB forever? I know I would. The only thing stopping them is some inconsequential hardware patents that BlackBerry holds on the keyboard and possibly trackpad implementation: Samsung could buy / license those for their empty bottle returns or half-an-hour's S4 revenues.

Do you want to see Samsung just wipe BlackBerry OS users off the face of the earth with a compelling alternative that is more approachable to BBOS users than BB10 is? I sure don't.

[Bbnivende]

Great post Ryan.

It is my speculation that during the development of BB10 there must have been some thought to jettison physical keyboard devices altogether. On the other hand there must have been BBOS loyalists who did not feel the need for a bigger screen.

It is obvious that the Q10 is far from being the ultimate QWERTY device that it needed to be to attract both BBOS loyalists and converts from other platforms.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app

[StoicEngineer]

Ryan, nicely stated.

I love my Q10, have used several earlier BlackBerry devices with trackpads (& trackballs!) and personally don't miss them. But, that's me and, as you say, others differ.

I completely agree with your important point that a trackpad would be necessary with a slider. Aside from the reach issues with gestures, there will be difficulties with slider movement and vertical gestures as the slider mechanism wears, I think.

Posted via CB10

[ZeroBarrier]

Using a trackpad on BB10 would be similar to playing an FPS with a gamepad. There will always be people who think they're the fastest and most precise on a gamepad, but reality is they are helplessly wrong.

Posted via CB10

[ToY9CiTo]

Anyone who says they DO NOT need Real keys for call and end buttons or a Trackpad definitely must not have ever been in the middle of a call and then started goin thru menus/surfing the web while talking then tried to swipe back and forth to find the call active frame to try to end the call quickly..

it takes way too dam long compared to a END button..another thing trying to select a specific part of a sentence to then paste is basically so frustratin on my q10 that I just end up giving up and deleting the whole sentence and part of sentence and rewriting again.

Posted via CB10

[ZeroBarrier]

Anyone who says they DO NOT need Real keys for call and end buttons or a Trackpad definitely must not have ever been in the middle of a call and then started goin thru menus/surfing the web while talking then tried to swipe back and forth to find the call active frame to try to end the call quickly..

it takes way too dam long compared to a END button..another thing trying to select a specific part of a sentence to then paste is basically so frustratin on my q10 that I just end up giving up and deleting the whole sentence and part of sentence and rewriting again.

Posted via CB10

You don't need to look for the active frame, you have a constant dedicated phone icon on every home screen. All you have to do it swipe up, click phone, click end. Is the dedicated key quicker? Yes, but by how much? 2 seconds, maybe less for someone proficient at BB10. It takes me less than 2 seconds (closer to just 1 second) to end a call and return to what I was doing.

There's a lot of people that obviously need to learn to use their BB10 device more efficiently. Post like yours just keep reaffirming this over and over.

Posted via CB10

[ToY9CiTo]

Proficient my ****. I been using BlackBerry since 2004 and I hated the trackpad compared to the wheel. And yet fine I got over it and learned to get it w the trackpad. Even though trackpad broke more often then whEel. Either way I was fine. I have had my q10 since day 1 and I type around 12,000 text a month BBM cant even count and whatsapp all day. Emails around 600 per day my business keeps me on the fone most of the day and night. I been up since 8am and its 3am here n im messaging from my q10..

This has nothing to do w proficient.. if it takes me 2 less seconds and less swiping up and click on call then find end key.. thats 2 less seconds x lets say 20k calls a years thats like how many hours ive saved a year? I really doubt im not proficient. I been texting while I drive 5 speed since I got my first BlackBerry In 2004.. still no accidents. So I think im pretty proficient... actually I Love texting while I drive.. anyway Busy business people which are the core BlackBerry users time is money and when im driving finding the end button I dont even havbe to look or swipe just click and Boom ur done. In business every minute eevery second counts.


BlackBerry needs to remember that people who like to play games and just netflix on there phones are not the people that still love BlackBerry. Speed Great Speedy UI that allows BlackBerry users to quickly get minimal tasks done is what we Love.. if u wanna swipe and click and all to do something so simple like hang up. Then ur just like most of the zombie apple followign crew.

Fine if u want to do all that swipin on and all touch device fine. Be happy but for people The core BlackBerry users that Love and Need Real physical keys have different needs than all touch device users..its a totally different experince a all touch to a qwuerty. We sacrifuce the lcd real estate for something we feel is very important which is fast speedy typin, shortcuts to common used task like for example long pressing the C to o pen lets say Clock app etc... we trade our small lcd for the fact that real keys. Shortcuts are why we are here. Yes videos dont like as great but then again I have 2 ipads for those tasks and for playing games and watching movies I have a 65 inch LED TV I need my phone for quick emails text bbm mms to reply to business emails quickly and not slow down my life more than it already is "
Posted via CB10

[ZeroBarrier]

It's as clear as day when you mention a method that is the absolutely worst way to accomplish something that is so simple, that you may just not be as proficient as you truly believe.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, oh well. In the meantime BlackBerry shall continue to move forward, and we shall hope they continue the course and hopefully succeed in staying relevant in this market.

Posted via CB10

[ToY9CiTo]

Actually Apple has moved forward very well.. and if you have every read the story of the building of the original iphone engineers had a war vs steve jobs cause he insisted on NOT have the Home Button on the iphone yet most of the tech team disagreed.

7 years later Apple rules the smartphone world and not that home buTton steve jobs didnt want is one of the most core security features on the 5s w the fingerprint scanner.. u dont always have to change everything to continue innovation..

Posted via CB10

[ZeroBarrier]

Actually Apple has moved forward very well.. and if you have every read the story of the building of the original iphone engineers had a war vs steve jobs cause he insisted on NOT have the Home Button on the iphone yet most of the tech team disagreed.

7 years later Apple rules the smartphone world and not that home buTton steve jobs didnt want is one of the most core security features on the 5s w the fingerprint scanner.. u dont always have to change everything to continue innovation..

Posted via CB10

Android controls a staggering 81% of the smartphone market worldwide, while iPhone has a measly 12.9% market share. On what world are you living on where iPhones control the smartphone world?...

Windows Phone, Android Gain Market Share While Apple Slips Despite Growth In iPhone Shipments | TechCrunch

And it isn't slowing down either.

http://techcrunch.com/2013/12/02/app...-of-all-sales/

[ToY9CiTo]

Direct quote from your article posted..



For now, things appear somewhat set: Android rules the smartphone market, Apple makes all the money, and Windows Phone is scrapping to prove that it deserves the third-place spot that it has scratched out in the game.

So google and amazon and china selll a ton of android devices and hardly any profit. Basically almost giving them away. So u call that controlling the smartphone market..

But apple like says there still makes all the money w there highly priced very hard to customize super controlled IOS OS that I freaking hate there dam control but android to comepete w that basically for the most part sells a lot of very low end devices many who pucrchase them because of the huge price cuts I mean a nexus 4 nexus 5 and moto G and moto x are half of an iphone and come factory unlocked yet motorola can barely sell 100k of them..
Apple sells phones for 650 US and 850euros in europe and still people flocking to buy. Its not just about numbers apple keeps there fan base and adds w there crazy high welll built products. we all stand in shock how people dish out $500 for an ipad and android has tablets w twice the specs selling for 180 to 200 dollars less and still apple outsells them. BlackBerry is made for more business focused quickly finishing task intuitive focused devices specially the qwerty devices which are there nitch in the world.

Besides samsung though as far as devices only samsung gives apple a huge run for the money we can thank samsung for forcing apple to innovate other they might be still selling the iphone 5 this year and saving the 5s for 2014 and a half

Posted via CB10

[SenorPistachio]

Using a trackpad on BB10 would be similar to playing an FPS with a gamepad. There will always be people who think they're the fastest and most precise on a gamepad, but reality is they are helplessly wrong.

Posted via CB10

To be honest, you turned the two around. A mouse + keyboard is precision and speed, whereas a gamepad is not. Same goes for trackpad and all-touch. It's like claiming you can type quicker on a touchscreen device than you can on a QWERTY. Sure it's neck-to-neck, which is acceptable, but time is money, and like 'ToY9CiTo' stated, it can add up to god knows how many hours.

I'll bet you anything i can select a piece of text and copy/paste it with more precision and speed than you can with all-touch which is not as NEAR as precise as touch is.

[deadcowboy]

Anyone who says they DO NOT need Real keys for call and end buttons or a Trackpad definitely must not have ever been in the middle of a call and then started goin thru menus/surfing the web while talking then tried to swipe back and forth to find the call active frame to try to end the call quickly..

it takes way too dam long compared to a END button..another thing trying to select a specific part of a sentence to then paste is basically so frustratin on my q10 that I just end up giving up and deleting the whole sentence and part of sentence and rewriting again.

Posted via CB10

Thank you. I've been saying this since day one and I've never gotten anyone to agree.

[deadcowboy]

It's as clear as day when you mention a method that is the absolutely worst way to accomplish something that is so simple, that you may just not be as proficient as you truly believe.

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, oh well. In the meantime BlackBerry shall continue to move forward, and we shall hope they continue the course and hopefully succeed in staying relevant in this market.

Posted via CB10

You're a joke, buddy. Ending a call with one button is way better than ending it with a swipe, a tap, and a tap. It boggles the mind that you can't admit that.

[ZeroBarrier]

I call controlling 81% of the market, " controlling 81% of the market". You think that Google isn't raking in money by dominating 81% of the entire world's smartphone market, and integrating nearly every one of their services on those same smartphone? Sure the handsets are almost given away, but make no mistake about it and don't think for a second that Android doesn't make Google money; stacks and stacks of money.

And I'm done in this thread. No point arguing this any further here. Those that have a hard-on for physical call & end buttons, and for a trackpad will always have a hard-on for them; unfortunate as it may be.

Posted via CB10

[RyanGermann]

You don't need to look for the active frame, you have a constant dedicated phone icon on every home screen. All you have to do it swipe up, click phone, click end. Is the dedicated key quicker? Yes, but by how much? 2 seconds, maybe less for someone proficient at BB10. It takes me less than 2 seconds (closer to just 1 second) to end a call and return to what I was doing.

How is the amount of time and effort that it takes, you, ZeroBarrier, to do anything on an all touch slab device or how much of a hassle you think that something that used to be "push the button" that now becomes "swipe, tap then tap again, looking at the device the whole time" relevant to the fact that BlackBerry devices are not selling well? If it is because you think the only problem BlackBerry has in market appeal is that people don't know how wonderful BB10 is? Part of why that is is because of the form factor of the devices, but you may not agree.

There's a lot of people that obviously need to learn to use their BB10 device more efficiently. Post like yours just keep reaffirming this over and over.

Again what does that have to do with BB10's failure in the marketplace? Most people on this site hoping for a device like this slider already have paid their fare to ride the BB10 train and still want something more.

Why resort to insults about those that don't find the device as usable as you do?

Guess we will have to agree to disagree, oh well. In the meantime BlackBerry shall continue to move forward, and we shall hope they continue the course and hopefully succeed in staying relevant in this market.

They're moving forward towards increasing irrelevance minute by minute with the attitude that what they've got on the market is fine and it just needs a teensy bit of... something no one can articulate. The OP suggested a radical design that would appeal to a lot of people and differentiate BB devices from others that run touch-centric OSes. Positive contribution to the BB / CB community.

Ending a call with one button is way better than ending it with a swipe, a tap, and a tap. It boggles the mind that you can't admit that.

And I'm done in this thread. No point arguing this any further here. Those that have a hard-on for physical call & end buttons, and for a trackpad will always have a hard-on for them; unfortunate as it may be.

Again with the condescension. SMH.

[anon(4227288)]

if this ever comes out, it'll cost a ****load of money

[ejp279]

I want this phone

Posted via CB10

[SenorPistachio]

if this ever comes out, it'll cost a ****load of money

I had written a small piece about this in the blog post by Adam Zeis, but i'll write it down again since, to me,
it's very interesting to discuss this.

When the Z30 came out, i wanted to get one because i like OS10. It's pretty much the only reason as well, because i wasn't impressed at all by the specs, i don't like how the phone looks ( i don't find it ugly, but it looks so...2011 ), but i figured, what the hey, i'll try it. Then i found out what it would cost and i didn't understand it. Here you have a company, which is not a bad company, it was once one of the top smartphone makers in the world, but a company that's fallen behind due to a couple of points, mainly :

- Lagging OS ( which they corrected with OS10 though )
- Not innovating nearly enough ( if anything ) as the competition ( imo, Blackberry should have tackled the all-touch market at around the same time they released the Bold ( 2008 i think ), to directly compete against the iPhone 3g. )
- Percentage of faulty components was just too high ( faulty trackpads, faulty keyboards, white screen of death )
- Overall look and feel of the devices seemed a bit cheap in comparison to other high-end competitors
- Another important one is BBM. They should have developed and finetuned BBM for iOS and Android a LONG time ago, so they could've released instantly it in 2010, when Whatsapp started to make a name for itself. Of course they didn't, because RIM were still somewhat of a big player and the phones were selling like hot-cakes, so that's a decision they made which did not turn out well for them, but that's business.

Main thing now is to look forward, and to start innovating.

Call me Blackberry Joe. I'm the same as Average Joe, but i have a weakness for Blackberries. So when i have the option to get myself a phone, i look if i can get a Blackberry first. So here we have the Z30, a phone that should have launched next to the Z10 ( Z15 perhaps ), which should cost around 399 euros. But it doesn't. You see, they made the price SO high, that not a lot of people were willing to get one. But BB10 is so good you say? Yeah, it rules, but that's beside the point. To make people fall in love with you again after you've scorned them, you have to make some sacrifices. If they really wanted to sell OS10, they should've released it on the cheaper phones ( Curve ) as well, so the word would get out, because right now they ( Curve ) still have a OS that's laggy. If you want people to buy mid-range hardware, don't sell the phone as if it were a high-end phone because it's not and people are not stupid.

Let people try the phone for 2 weeks, if they don't like it, they can send it back, money back guarantee. Start with a cashback promotion, but do something. Don't sit back on your lazy *** and watch a sinking ship sink further, because you are NOT Apple, you DON'T have a large enough following that buys anything you release, and even they are failing right now with the 5C. While i'm still on the 'sinking ship' metaphor, what you're basically doing is inviting people to get on a sinking ship without trying to fix the damage.

The Blackberry Z30 costs 540 euros , off contract. Which is 744 dollars. The Note 3 is 620 euros, 855 dollars, BUT has a cashback promotion which makes the phone 717 dollars. Which phone would you choose? Let me also stress the fact that the Z30 costs more than the Galaxy S4 , and the LG G2. BB10 is a great selling point for those that have actually played with it, but almost everyone has used the older BB software, and almost everyone hates it to the point they don't believe RIM anymore which is a bad thing, because the OS is really, really well crafted.

Almost every spec i used for the concept was copied from the Note 3, and tbh, it's not that unrealistic, it's just that RIM has made the price for a mid-range phone so high, which makes you believe that if RIM would make this phone with the aforementioned specs, it would probably cost a much as a Fiat Panda. RIM needs to get their act together and start being realistic, you want my 800 dollars? You can have it, even though you've screwed me a couple of times, i still believe that RIM deserves to be one of the top players. But you better give me something that's worth my 800 dollars. Don't try to sell me a phone with specs that other phones have that cost 2-300 dollars less. ( Xperia Z comes close. )

That's my two cents.

[RyanGermann]

For everyone concerned with how much these devices would cost to manufacture, a quick glance at isuppli.com will give you an idea about what component costs are, and of course you have to add manufacturing and distribution costs on top of that:

Teardowns - iSuppli

If a company like BlackBerry is willing to do a limited run of devices, it would bear a higher per-unit cost, naturally, but it wouldn't be DOUBLE the cost of a larger volume... at high guaranteed volumes, it's fair to say that component costs are reduced in price, but use a site like monoprice or dealextreme as a guide to how prices come down in volume...

6ft 18Gbps Ultra Slim Series High Performance HDMI� Cable w/ RedMere� Technology - Black - Monoprice.com

Just over $17 each, just over $15 in 50+ quantity... this is retail pricing not wholesale, but the proportionate discounts a good indicator of buying hundreds of thousands of a component vs. buying millions.

Perhaps there are people involved more directly in the industry that could comment: but here's another example that's more directly related to this topic:

For Apple Iphone 5s Screen Replacement - Buy For Iphone 5s Screen,For Iphone 5s Screen Replacement,For Apple Iphone 5s Screen Replacement Product on Alibaba.com

Price is $140 to $170 minimum order of 10: according to iSuppli:

Groundbreaking iPhone 5s Carries $199 BOM and Manufacturing Cost, IHS Teardown Reveals - IHS iSuppli�€™s® Teardown portal provides deeper insights into bill of materials, BOM cost, photo analysis and graphical representation of electronics. To learn

Apple pays $41 per screen, total device cost INCLUDING MANUFACTURING is $199... so let's say that this "Q40" would use the same screen as the LG G2 or Galaxy S4 (or Galaxy Note III YES GO HUGE BLACKBERRY!)... the G2 / Note III / Nexus 5 teardowns aren't released yet (january 2013 dates) so it's difficult to know the price of the screen (the single most costly component) in large quantities would be... and these quantities would not be 10s-of-millions quantities, but might be a few hundred thousand... so let's do a high ballpark of $60 or so.

For the record, here's the cost teardown for the BlackBerry Torch, which was manufactured in greater quantity than this device would be, but it gives an idea about how much the slider mechanism itself adds to the cost:

http://www.isuppli.com/Teardowns/New...n-Reveals.aspx

Total cost is about $184 including $12 manufacturing costs... the entire case mechanism is about $24 or so... and because the other components of the 'casing' including the keyboard are included in that $24, the additional cost for the slider mechanism isn't all that much.. and the estimated manufacturing cost is $12, CHUMP CHANGE. COOs care about shaving 50� off the manufacturing costs, but I'd pay BlackBerry an extra $5, so that's not really an argument against a slider.

All tolled, it would be the slider mechanism and the keyboard that would increase the costs, but even then, I think BlackBerry could build a 64 gig version of the Q40 for less than $400, possibly less than $300 each.

I don't think there would be much point to spending hundreds of millions on marketing: trot it out to the tech press and make it's EXISTENCE known, and let the chips fall where they may: you know that a device with a 5" screen and high-powered processor with the form factor of this "Q40" would make the mainstream media and frankly, I don't give a flying fcuk what the mainstream media says: those that are intrigued won't be swayed by the throwaway jibes from Ron Burgundy after the 3 years of absolute enmity from the press.

[Bbnivende]

Ryan, I like your "field of dreams" approach. Build it and they will come.... that and the need to have a unlocked runtime for easy install of android apps.

[samsam27]

Hey

Posted via CB10

[Tim-ANC]

You're a joke, buddy. Ending a call with one button is way better than ending it with a swipe, a tap, and a tap. It boggles the mind that you can't admit that.

Answering with a swipe is a pain too. The device is after all, primarily a telephone. Why take those base functions away?


Posted via CB10

[Skeevecr]

This has nothing to do w proficient.. if it takes me 2 less seconds and less swiping up and click on call then find end key.. thats 2 less seconds x lets say 20k calls a years thats like how many hours ive saved a year? I really doubt im not proficient. I been texting while I drive 5 speed since I got my first BlackBerry In 2004.. still no accidents. So I think im pretty proficient... actually I Love texting while I drive.. anyway Busy business people which are the core BlackBerry users time is money and when im driving finding the end button I dont even havbe to look or swipe just click and Boom ur done. In business every minute eevery second counts.

Ignoring the obvious issue that you have been lucky not to be in an accident rather than it somehow relating to your typing proficiency, isn't the law that you have to use handsfree for phone-calls while driving in your country? It certainly is in most nowadays and in that scenario the easiest way to end a call would not be touching the phone at all, it would be doing it via the controls on your car or headset.

Incidentally, people should probably avoid falling into the trap of thinking that an anecdote is the singular of data.