1. K's Avatar
    So, just about every cell phone provider that offers Blackberry service charges more for "work", "enterprise", "corporate" email - in other words BES.

    My question is, are these plans actually needed or they just feast on customers' ignorance or rely on their terms of service to enforce sale of the higher priced packages if customers are using BES?

    I mean, once a BB is provisioned, how does a carrier know that you'll be using BES and restrict it unless you're paying for the BES plan?
    07-31-09 11:45 AM
  2. sniffs's Avatar
    BIS and BES technically can do the exact same thing, except BIS cant connect to a BES. It's just that with a BES, you've got connectivity into RIM's NOC, which costs RIM money, so they push that onto the carrier, which pushes it onto the consumer.

    It costs more for that reason. Nothing more, nothing less.
    07-31-09 11:48 AM
  3. K's Avatar
    BIS and BES technically can do the exact same thing, except BIS cant connect to a BES. It's just that with a BES, you've got connectivity into RIM's NOC, which costs RIM money, so they push that onto the carrier, which pushes it onto the consumer.

    It costs more for that reason. Nothing more, nothing less.
    RIM is involved whether you use BIS or BES, so I don't think there's any additional cost there. In fact, RIM makes more money off you when you buy BES and the CALs.

    So, my question is, why does the carrier care if you're using BIS or BES...and can they actually restrict BES use if you only have a BIS plan?
    07-31-09 11:52 AM
  4. sniffs's Avatar
    When you manage a BES, there is connectivity from that BES to RIM's NOC, thats the extra charge. This is done via the SRP, Service Routing Protocol. Each BES has a unique SRP, just like our handhelds have a unique PIN. BES has better guaranteed service vs a BIS plan. On a BES you get WAY more functionality than BIS, you get more security, etc. The company you work for are paying for that peace of mind.

    If you only have a BIS plan, the ports needed for your device to talk to a BES are blocked.

    Same as a T1 line vs residential DSL. both are 1.5Mbps, however, with a T1, you are guaranteed services as well as, any downtime and the T1 provider PAYS you back.

    I'm just trying to show you the perks of a BES vs BIS, just like the perks of a T1 vs DSL.
    Last edited by sniffs; 07-31-09 at 12:03 PM.
    07-31-09 11:59 AM
  5. K's Avatar
    When you manage a BES, there is connectivity from that BES to RIM's NOC, thats the extra charge. This is done via the SRP, Service Routing Protocol. Each BES has a unique SRP, just like our handhelds have a unique PIN. BES has better guaranteed service vs a BIS plan. On a BES you get WAY more functionality than BIS, you get more security, etc. The company you work for are paying for that peace of mind.

    If you only have a BIS plan, the ports needed for your device to talk to a BES are blocked.

    Same as a T1 line vs residential DSL. both are 1.5Mbps, however, with a T1, you are guaranteed services as well as, any downtime and the T1 provider PAYS you back.

    I'm just trying to show you the perks of a BES vs BIS, just like the perks of a T1 vs DSL.
    You're missing the point...when you buy BES and pay for the CALs, you're paying RIM for their back end infrastructure. There is no additional cost for the mobile service provider if you're using BES vs. BIS.

    So, is there something that T-Mobile, AT&T, Sprint et al actually have to do in order to facilitate BES? ...or is it just a marketing gimmick that if you pay more you can use "enterprise email"? In other words, is there an actual difference in how the blackberry device is provisioned on the carrier's network depending on whether the user is using BES or BIS? If so, what is that difference?
    07-31-09 12:09 PM
  6. sniffs's Avatar
    There is no difference. BIS and BES can do the exact same thing.

    However, I think you are missing the point a little. On BIS, there's no hosted servers involved. BIS, RIM acts as a proxy and routes your email through it's servers. This is controlled via Service books.

    On a BES, there IS a hosted server involved, that consumes a sh!t ton of BW, you think RIM wants to pay for that BW?

    On BIS, you are 1 person consuming tiny bits of bandwidh, On a BES, there could be 2000+ people.

    Fact is, there's more BES users out there that chew through BW than BIS users. RIM pushes that cost to the carriers, which effectivly push the costs to us.

    My california bes has been up for 45 days.. it's chewed up 650 Gigabytes of data.
    Last edited by sniffs; 07-31-09 at 12:29 PM.
    07-31-09 12:25 PM
  7. K's Avatar
    There is no difference. BIS and BES can do the exact same thing.

    However, I think you are missing the point a little. On BIS, there's no hosted servers involved. BIS, the carrier acts as a proxy and routes your email through it's servers. This is controlled via Service books.

    On a BES, there IS a hosted server involved, that consumes a sh!t ton of BW, you think RIM wants to pay for that BW?

    On BIS, you are 1 person consuming tiny bits of bandwidh, On a BES, there could be 2000+ people.

    Fact is, there's more BES users out there that chew through BW than BIS users. RIM pushes that cost to the carriers, which effectivly push the costs to us.

    My california bes has been up for 45 days.. it's chewed up 650 Gigabytes of data.
    LOL

    Well, no BIS and BES are different animals. If they did the same thing, they WOULD be the same thing not separate products.

    BES allows customer to leverage their existing messaging platform and extend it out to mobile devices. So, your Outlook/Exchange mailbox, calendar, GAL etc. is replicated real-time to your berry.

    BIS just allows individual users to get push-email without using a centralized server. BIS doesn't do calendar, corporate apps, vpn, security, GAL, IT policies etc.

    The reason you probably used that much bandwidth is because you probably have multiple users and you're sending your web browsing and other data over your network. However you're wrong in that the cost between BIS and BES is exactly the same. If you're using 650GB at your BES...then the devices using that BES are together also using the exact same amount of bandwidth.

    I mean, it's not like your blackberry enterprise server used 650GB, half of it disappears and the devices only use like 300GB. The data transfer at the BES equals the aggregate data transfer done with all the 'berry devices using that BES.

    But you're still missing my point. What is the difference - at the mobile service provider level - the difference between provisioning a device using BIS vs. a device using BES.

    Maybe someone who actually knows what the **** they're talking about could chime in?
    07-31-09 12:37 PM
  8. sniffs's Avatar
    *SIGH* when I said BIS and BES could do the same thing, I was referring to the DATA PLAN, not specifics on the handheld. If you unblock the BES ports for BIS, BIS could connect into a BES and sync your data, plain and simple.

    from a provisioning standpoint, there's no difference. once the Host Routing Table gets downloaded onto your device based on your plan, your data gets routed differently.

    Obviously BIS and BES offer different functionality. The reason why my BES chewer up 650GB of data is because I've got 2000 users on each BES, all browsing websites, facebook, youtube, all connecting into the corporate network, all sending/receiving emails with attachments, etc.

    Unblock the BES ports for BIS, and BIS plan could do the same. From a provisioning standpoint in the carriers eyes, there is no difference other than how data is routed. Ask them why there's a cost difference.
    07-31-09 01:04 PM
  9. K's Avatar
    from a provisioning standpoint, there's no difference.
    Unblock the BES ports for BIS, and BIS plan could do the same.
    So, which one is it? If the provisioning is the same, then it's the same. If certain ports are blocked then obviously the provisioning process is different.
    07-31-09 01:09 PM
  10. sniffs's Avatar
    All the carriers do is add the plan, service book gets sent, host routing table downloads. This process is exactly the same on both BIS and BES.

    There is no difference in how the carrier provisions one plan vs the other, it's the same process for both.

    When they add a BIS plan, the BIS service book gets sent which allows for minimal data syncing functionality and BES is blocked.

    When they add a BES plan, the BES service book gets sent, which allows for full data syncing functionality and connection to a BES.

    There are 3 types of Service Books, Carrier service books which control how the device functions on the carrier network such as how data is routed, Then BIS service books which control BIS syncing, and then BES service books which control BES messaging functions and IT policies.

    From a carrier provisioning standpoint, all they do is click a button, that's it.

    If you are equating provisioning to how data is routed, than obviously its different and I dont even know if the carriers would know this. If you're referring provisioning to how the plan is setup, rep for carrier clicks a button and RIM takes care of the rest.
    Last edited by sniffs; 07-31-09 at 01:19 PM.
    07-31-09 01:16 PM
  11. jakeboyer11's Avatar
    generally more data is sent on a BES than on a BIS which costs the carrier money. Therefore you pay more for the increased amount of data being used on a BES vs BIS
    07-31-09 01:24 PM
  12. K's Avatar
    All the carriers do is add the plan, service book gets sent, host routing table downloads. This process is exactly the same on both BIS and BES.

    There is no difference in how the carrier provisions one plan vs the other, it's the same process for both.

    When they add a BIS plan, the BIS service book gets sent which allows for minimal data syncing functionality and BES is blocked.

    When they add a BES plan, the BES service book gets sent, which allows for full data syncing functionality and connection to a BES.

    There are 3 types of Service Books, Carrier service books which control how the device functions on the carrier network such as how data is routed, Then BIS service books which control BIS syncing, and then BES service books which control BES messaging functions and IT policies.

    From a carrier provisioning standpoint, all they do is click a button, that's it.

    If you are equating provisioning to how data is routed, than obviously its different and I dont even know if the carriers would know this. If you're referring provisioning to how the plan is setup, rep for carrier clicks a button and RIM takes care of the rest.
    The data is routed the same way...to RIM. Whether there's a third piece - BES - or not is a different matter.

    What I'm trying to find out is, if were to install BES, do I absolutely have to get the "BES" package from the mobile service provider?...or will the BIS one do just fine?

    If the carrier just provisions the device the same way, and the BES service books are delivered from RIM to the device if I actually have a blackberry enterprise server, then what is the difference in the BIS vs BES data plans offered by the carriers?
    07-31-09 01:25 PM
  13. K's Avatar
    generally more data is sent on a BES than on a BIS which costs the carrier money. Therefore you pay more for the increased amount of data being used on a BES vs BIS

    A) That's a ridiculous generalization. I'm the difference isn't significant. A user is going to use the same amount of data regardless of whether he/she is using BIS or BES...unless there are a lot of company specific apps being delivered via the blackberry platform.

    B) That still doesnt' answer my question...what is the difference for the provider? If both plans are provisioned the same way, how do they know, if I'm using BES? I understand it may be a violation of the agreement to use enterprise services without using an enterprise plan etc. ....but what is the TECHNICAL difference between the two plans?
    07-31-09 01:29 PM
  14. jakeboyer11's Avatar
    in the simplest terms BES is constant data..full connection to the server...BIS is more of DATA ON DEMAND type of service. Having BEs installed with only a BIS plan is worthless because the BIS would not allow for the constant connection it needs..rendering it worthless with BES. Having the BES service ensures constant connection to the server for 100% live push of DATA
    07-31-09 01:30 PM
  15. sniffs's Avatar
    Refer to post # 11, which I mentioned already.

    If you setup a BES, you HAVE to get the BES plan or the BIS device will absolutely not connect into a BES.

    There's no difference except for routing, and how much data is used. BES uses more data, so the carrier pushes the costs to us. =/

    like I mentioned, BIS "technically" could connect in, but then they'd be giving you a cheaper plan and you'd use way more data and reap the benefits.

    The carriers are EVIL, EVIL and they don't care about you, or anyone. all they care about is $$$
    07-31-09 01:32 PM
  16. sniffs's Avatar
    A) That's a ridiculous generalization. I'm the difference isn't significant. A user is going to use the same amount of data regardless of whether he/she is using BIS or BES...unless there are a lot of company specific apps being delivered via the blackberry platform.

    B) That still doesnt' answer my question...what is the difference for the provider? If both plans are provisioned the same way, how do they know, if I'm using BES? I understand it may be a violation of the agreement to use enterprise services without using an enterprise plan etc. ....but what is the TECHNICAL difference between the two plans?
    BES uses way more data in the fact that you have better push email, your device is constantly connected to the BES in real time.

    BIS isn't. It's push, but it's not true push, and it's VERY unreliable. Most corporations live and die by instant, on demand email. Bis just wont cut it.
    Last edited by sniffs; 07-31-09 at 01:45 PM.
    07-31-09 01:33 PM
  17. jakeboyer11's Avatar
    if you're that defiant..then do it your way and find out for yourself that it just won't work.
    07-31-09 01:35 PM
  18. BlackBella's Avatar
    I'm very green with this and IrishQT just told me about Enterprise activation....no one has addressed how to activate this if you are not an administrator.
    07-31-09 08:38 PM
  19. Jenny King's Avatar
    hey - I just got a blkbry curve and want to register it on the blackberry.com site. it wants my srp and ....oops, another number. I don't see either on the box. can you tell me where to locate these numbers so I can feed the site and get access to it? Thanks.
    12-28-09 06:37 PM
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD