08-06-11 10:10 AM
107 ... 2345
tools
  1. anon3396357's Avatar
    I wouldn't belittle the accomplishments in OS7. Certainly, some of its accomplishments are quite a jump compared to (for example) OS 4.5 -> OS 5. Here are two examples.

    Liquid Graphics: it's more than what you described. This is true GPU-accelerated UI. Android doesn't have it. Android folks are eagerly looking forward to precisely this feature, but it's only in the future Honeycomb 3.0. If this justifies a full version bump in Android, why not BBOS? This is an example of a feature that requires both software support and new hardware (the OpenGL-capable GPU). If it's so easy, why doesn't Android have it after all this time?

    JIT compiler: this is a big deal for a a platform where apps based on web technology (HTML/CSS/JavaScript) is really taking off. You want your WebWorks apps fast? You want this. This is not Java/Dalvik JIT: JIT for JavaScript is actually very new and cutting edge. Android doesn't have this, nor iPhone. I believe the JavaScript JIT compiler is why OS7's browser performance is blows Android's away, more than twice as fast in one benchmark. It's faster than the iPhone too.

    In other words, these two features that you dismissed as unremarkable are actually industry-leading features.
    Unfortunately, Android phone manufacturers don't write the Android OS themselves. I believe a fairer comparison should be made with Apple and their iPhones, since they write the OS for the phones they make. GPU-accelerated UI existed on the iPhone 3G in 2008. Liquid Graphics an industry-leading feature? Nope.

    HTML5 was already supported in Android 2.0. JIT compilers "very cutting edge"? Android 2.2 introduced JIT. iOS4.3 introduced Nitro for Safari, a JIT compiler, in March 2011. Industry-leading feature? Nope.

    Also, the comparison chart is really interesting. iPhone4/Nexus One/Nexus S were released in 2010. BlackBerry OS7 phones' real competition is the iPhone5(iOS5)/Android phones(Ice Cream Sandwich).
    Caymancroc likes this.
    08-04-11 11:31 PM
  2. ibigberries's Avatar
    I will be purchasing 5 of these "dead on arrival devices" myself.
    Nikeem24 likes this.
    08-05-11 01:33 AM
  3. southlander's Avatar
    Rim is moving to qnx in the near future.
    Yes I know. I have a PlayBook. The chance of RIM having QNX based phones out in 3 months is just very slightly north of zero.
    Nikeem24 likes this.
    08-05-11 01:49 AM
  4. cwong15's Avatar
    Unfortunately, Android phone manufacturers don't write the Android OS themselves. I believe a fairer comparison should be made with Apple and their iPhones, since they write the OS for the phones they make. GPU-accelerated UI existed on the iPhone 3G in 2008. Liquid Graphics an industry-leading feature? Nope.

    HTML5 was already supported in Android 2.0. JIT compilers "very cutting edge"? Android 2.2 introduced JIT. iOS4.3 introduced Nitro for Safari, a JIT compiler, in March 2011. Industry-leading feature? Nope.

    Also, the comparison chart is really interesting. iPhone4/Nexus One/Nexus S were released in 2010. BlackBerry OS7 phones' real competition is the iPhone5(iOS5)/Android phones(Ice Cream Sandwich).
    1. Funny that to denigrade Liquid Graphics, you want us to avoid comparison with Android, as if Android is not a leading competition. Wrong universe, buddy. Liquid Graphics remains a major, major advantage over Android.

    2. I repeat: Android does not have JIT. I'm talking about JavaScript JIT here. Android 2.2 introduced Dalvik JIT for their Java-like runtime. Not JavaScript JIT. Again, a major advantage over Android. Safari's Nitro is only for Safari: web-based apps do not get any advantage from Nitro, unlike OS7. And according to that article, Apple "has no plans to fix" the limitation. Advantage: RIM.

    3. Now you want to benchmark OS7 phones against products that don't even exist? That would make benchmarking rather ... impossible. Talk about stacking the deck.
    Last edited by cwong15; 08-05-11 at 06:43 AM.
    Neely2005 and Bobcat665 like this.
    08-05-11 06:34 AM
  5. anon3396357's Avatar
    1. Funny that to denigrade Liquid Graphics, you want us to avoid comparison with Android, as if Android is not a leading competition. Wrong universe, buddy. Liquid Graphics remains a major, major advantage over Android.

    2. I repeat: Android does not have JIT. I'm talking about JavaScript JIT here. Android 2.2 introduced Dalvik JIT for their Java-like runtime. Not JavaScript JIT. Again, a major advantage over Android. Safari's Nitro is only for Safari: web-based apps do not get any advantage from Nitro, unlike OS7. And according to that article, Apple "has no plans to fix" the limitation. Advantage: RIM.

    3. Now you want to benchmark OS7 phones against products that don't even exist? That would make benchmarking rather ... impossible. Talk about stacking the deck.
    1. I believe I already explained myself why I compared BBOS7 to iOS. Both RIM and Apple are companies that write their own proprietary software for the phones they make, so I felt appropriate to compare them. I left out Samsung/Bada since not many people know about them.

    If you're so adamant about it, let's pit BBOS7 and Android together. Even better, let's look at Nexus One, released in January 5, 2010. The Android OS has no GPU-accelerated UI since a long time ago, but even without that their UI is already fluid. There, comparison done. Major advantage indeed.

    2. I read the Ars Technica article before. I really hope you know what you're talking about. There are no performance enhancements to web-apps saved to the home screen, but Nitro still boosted web-apps opened in Safari itself. I don't know if the JIT compiler for BBOS7 browser will boost web-apps saved to the home screen though, so why don't you answer that for me? Now, what is this advantage you speak of? iOS4.3 had Nitro in March 2011.

    I invite you to read this article as well (not mine) if you're not too familiar with iOS: Nitro iOS 4.3.

    3. Well, I'm quite sure I didn't say I want to benchmark OS7 phones against products that don't even exist. If you can quote me on saying that then I truly apologize. Anyhow, I could have been unclear or just simply used bad phrasing. I was amused that BBOS7 browser was lauded because it beat phones with OSes released in 2010 (granted, improvements had been made along the way), and suggested that a fair comparison be made with the next iteration of iOS and Android OS, just as BBOS7 is an upgrade from BBOS6.
    08-05-11 10:08 AM
  6. vlade31's Avatar
    249 or 299...doesn't matter, its too much...its a last gen device it should be 150 with a 2 yr contract...I am done with RIM until QNX phones come out...Just picked a Google Nexus S for FREE on Tmobile with 2 yr contract...Best Buy one day sale. I am loving the pure android experience and free built in Wifi hotspot.
    psufan32 likes this.
    08-05-11 10:20 AM
  7. vbev84's Avatar
    Even if os7 is doa, it looks great and is better than my current bb.
    08-05-11 10:59 AM
  8. cwong15's Avatar
    1. I believe I already explained myself why I compared BBOS7 to iOS. Both RIM and Apple are companies that write their own proprietary software for the phones they make, so I felt appropriate to compare them. I left out Samsung/Bada since not many people know about them.

    If you're so adamant about it, let's pit BBOS7 and Android together. Even better, let's look at Nexus One, released in January 5, 2010. The Android OS has no GPU-accelerated UI since a long time ago, but even without that their UI is already fluid. There, comparison done. Major advantage indeed.

    2. I read the Ars Technica article before. I really hope you know what you're talking about. There are no performance enhancements to web-apps saved to the home screen, but Nitro still boosted web-apps opened in Safari itself. I don't know if the JIT compiler for BBOS7 browser will boost web-apps saved to the home screen though, so why don't you answer that for me? Now, what is this advantage you speak of? iOS4.3 had Nitro in March 2011.

    I invite you to read this article as well (not mine) if you're not too familiar with iOS: Nitro iOS 4.3.

    3. Well, I'm quite sure I didn't say I want to benchmark OS7 phones against products that don't even exist. If you can quote me on saying that then I truly apologize. Anyhow, I could have been unclear or just simply used bad phrasing. I was amused that BBOS7 browser was lauded because it beat phones with OSes released in 2010 (granted, improvements had been made along the way), and suggested that a fair comparison be made with the next iteration of iOS and Android OS, just as BBOS7 is an upgrade from BBOS6.
    1. Sorry, merely deeming Android "already fluid" does not cut it. Android users know the difference they can get from a GPU-accelerated UI. That's why they are still clamoring for it: they can see the difference. OS7 has it. Android does not. Once again, advantage: RIM.

    2. I do know what I am talking about WRT JIT. I read the article: only apps running within Safari get the JIT boost. You do understand web apps, right? Cross platform, standalone HTML5/CSS/JS apps can now be built for iOS, Android and RIM. You can download and install them from App World like any app. They don't run in a browser: they use the mobile platform's JavaScript runtime. HTML5 standalone apps can run on all 3 platforms. But (to answer your question) only BlackBerry's OS 7 will JIT-accelerate these apps. Advantage: RIM, against both platforms.

    3. You are saying that a "fair comparison" should be made against products that do not yet exist. The comparison we are talking about is the benchmarks. That is why I inferred you wanted benchmarks against ontologically challenged products. Since that is impossible, essentially you don't want us to consider benchmarks at all.
    Last edited by cwong15; 08-05-11 at 11:42 AM.
    Neely2005 likes this.
    08-05-11 11:35 AM
  9. Neely2005's Avatar
    Funny how different that article is from most of the other ones that I've read about the new BlackBerry models. Sounds like someone is just trying to perpetuate the RIM/BlackBerry is dead myth.
    08-05-11 12:42 PM
  10. cvdburgh's Avatar
    Whether it's 6.1 or 7.0, I'll take Liquid Graphics and be nice to it. I'll extend my upcoming contract with 1 year, pay some part of the price of the 9900 and use that until QNX comes shining through. We'll see what that actually does by the time it gets here.
    Perhaps JIT will help do stuff faster, perhaps it's just a theoretical advantage. For me, the form factor (huuuuuge keyboard) and improved hardware are enough reason to fork over the cash.
    I work with my BB everyday, it is essential to my business. I would buy it for up to 1000 euros (1426 or so dollars) if I had to. I just want the f*cker to work. My 9700 is working more or less OK, aside from some water damage to the screen -my bad-, but I have to be picky as to what non-essential apps I keep installed. Aside from full version Docs2Go, SugarSync, Dropbox, Endomondo (gotta get in shape), Bridge and some others, there is not much room for anything else on OS6.
    And, I really wanted OS6 because it's browser was so much better than OS5. Actually, now that I think of it, since I do my serious browsing on my Playbook now, which is never far out of my reach, I could probably downgrade my 9700 to OS5. But why bother now, the 9900 is apparently coming veeery soon, and then all my troubles will be over (until QNX phones get here and I'll have to read a ton of more-or-less informed forum posts [we need more stuff from cwong15! somebody talking sense for a change] to see if I should ditch my 9900 by that time.

    Whatever time we'll get to spend until the next big thing, I'm very much ready to put my hands on the 9900 and if it delivers what is show in the vids on this site, I'll be very happy. In a couple of months y'all here will explain to me why that BB sexiness is then no longer good enough. Perhaps I'll listen. Maybe not...
    08-05-11 12:45 PM
  11. Neely2005's Avatar
    Funny how different that article is from most of the other ones that I've read about the new BlackBerry models. Sounds like someone is just trying to perpetuate the RIM/BlackBerry is dead myth.
    Such as these 2 articles:

    Talk of RIM's Demise Greatly Exaggerated - Seeking Alpha

    RIM unveils new BlackBerry models - The Globe and Mail

    Somewhat more balanced than the article in the OP.
    08-05-11 01:03 PM
  12. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    2. I repeat: Android does not have JIT. I'm talking about JavaScript JIT here. Android 2.2 introduced Dalvik JIT for their Java-like runtime. Not JavaScript JIT. Again, a major advantage over Android. Safari's Nitro is only for Safari: web-based apps do not get any advantage from Nitro, unlike OS7. And according to that article, Apple "has no plans to fix" the limitation. Advantage: RIM.
    According to several resources, Android has their own JIT for javascript with V8.
    anon3396357 likes this.
    08-05-11 01:20 PM
  13. Mio_Ray's Avatar
    I could get myself an iPhone5 this fall. Or one of the WP7 Mango phones coming, they also look sweet. But I'm still confident that I will go for the BB 9860. BB7 looks sweet and in my book it is the superior OS, where it is still lacking is with the small selection of apps.

    And really the platform is not dying, I see more potential for BBOS&QNX than I do for Android.
    08-05-11 01:27 PM
  14. houshinto#IM's Avatar
    These "tech reviewers" use lack of QNX OS as a disqualifier for these new phones. Yet for the Playbook which has a QNX OS, they give it a grain of salt, "sure it can multitask with ease, but there's no apps" or it's still not the same ease as iOS. Which proves two things to me.

    1. The QNX argument is BS that's used to lazily write off RIM devices, like all apple/android fanboys.

    2. Tech Reviewers like most of the Media establishment have become so lazy in their profession that they resemble more the trashy tabloid magazines they claim to superior to.

    Sad really.
    sergesc likes this.
    08-05-11 01:38 PM
  15. anon3396357's Avatar
    1. Sorry, merely deeming Android "already fluid" does not cut it. Android users know the difference they can get from a GPU-accelerated UI. That's why they are still clamoring for it: they can see the difference. OS7 has it. Android does not. Once again, advantage: RIM.

    2. I do know what I am talking about WRT JIT. I read the article: only apps running within Safari get the JIT boost. You do understand web apps, right? Cross platform, standalone HTML5/CSS/JS apps can now be built for iOS, Android and RIM. You can download and install them from App World like any app. They don't run in a browser: they use the mobile platform's JavaScript runtime. HTML5 standalone apps can run on all 3 platforms. But (to answer your question)only BlackBerry's OS 7 will JIT-accelerate these apps. Advantage: RIM, against both platforms.

    3. You are saying that a "fair comparison" should be made against products that do not yet exist. The comparison we are talking about is the benchmarks. That is why I inferred you wanted benchmarks against ontologically challenged products. Since that is impossible, essentially you don't want us to consider benchmarks at all.
    1. Okay, if RIM beating Android makes you so happy, whatever floats your boat. Once again, iPhone 3G had GPU-accelerated UI in 2008. Funny how you accused me of avoiding comparing between BBOS and Android and you totally dismissed that iOS already had it 3 years ago.

    2. Yes I know what web-apps are, and I use them quite frequently. Can I just ask (I admit I do not know very much about this, since RIM hasn't released much information yet), where is the JIT compiler for BBOS7? Is it in the browser, or is it a runtime JIT compiler everywhere in the OS? If it's only in the browser, then how can the JIT compiler "accelerate" web apps that are not run in the browser?

    There are 2 kinds of web apps. Browser-based, and client-based. You should read up more.

    3. A fair comparison is between BBOS7, iOS5 and Android OS 2.4. Find me one person on this boards which will disagree with this. And it's just common sense that we can only wait till iOS5 and Android 2.4 is out before we make a comparison. I did not say anything about comparing against "nothing", so stop trying to put words into my mouth.

    I'm out of here. You don't know what you're talking about.

    In response to the thread title, BBOS7 is not DOA, it just pales in comparison to the competition. Have fun, and keep the discussion civil and healthy.
    08-05-11 01:47 PM
  16. cwong15's Avatar
    2. Yes I know what web-apps are, and I use them quite frequently. Can I just ask (I admit I do not know very much about this, since RIM hasn't released much information yet), where is the JIT compiler for BBOS7? Is it in the browser, or is it a runtime JIT compiler everywhere in the OS? If it's only in the browser, then how can the JIT compiler "accelerate" web apps that are not run in the browser?
    I don't know how I can make this clearer. I know something about web apps because I write them for a living. The OS7 JavaScript JIT compiler works everywhere. It works in the browser. It also works on apps outside of the browser. That link from RIM I gave you earlier says so: WebWorks apps are standalone HTML/JS/CSS apps, and they benefit from the JIT acceleration. You cannot get a more authoritative source than RIM itself.

    I think your confusion comes from the fact that neither iOS nor Android can do this. You assume that OS7 suffers from the same limitation as iOS with respect to JIT compilation. Well, put aside those iOS-specific assumptions. JavaScript JIT acceleration is universal on OS 7, speeds up standalone webapps, and is one clear advantage that OS 7 has over both iOS and Android.
    Neely2005 and Bobcat665 like this.
    08-05-11 02:04 PM
  17. DenverRalphy's Avatar
    I think your confusion comes from the fact that neither iOS nor Android can do this. You assume that OS7 suffers from the same limitation as iOS with respect to JIT compilation. Well, put aside those iOS-specific assumptions. JavaScript JIT acceleration is universal on OS 7, speeds up standalone webapps, and is one clear advantage that OS 7 has over both iOS and Android.
    Do you have any benchmarks of the OS7 JIT over Google's V8 which Android uses?
    08-05-11 02:18 PM
  18. grover5's Avatar
    So you are basically saying people who buy iPhones or Android devices can't think for themselves. BB users are the only people in the world who have control over their brain, right?

    Do people forget about all the kids buying BBs because they think BBM is cool? Everyone I knew who had a smartphone before the iPhone came out had BBs. Now there are more choices and there are only a few of them who continue to use BBs.
    I'm pretty sure he was saying that people buy what they like regardless of the eventual platform chosen as opposed to the two antagonistic options presented in the post he was replying to. It was pretty obvious and I thought done in a respectful manner.
    08-05-11 02:24 PM
  19. anon(3733516)'s Avatar
    why would you post an article that is purely opinionated?

    stupid thread is stupid.
    08-05-11 02:29 PM
  20. sergesc's Avatar
    why would you post an article that is purely opinionated?

    stupid thread is stupid.
    Because that is the "professional, unbiased" point of view of a "tech-reviewer". Which is sad. Very few websites are truly unbiased and neutral nowadays, and not to mention, it is "IN" to bash on RIM, because let's face it, it gives more views for them (as people debate on the topic), and makes a post extremely easy.

    Just check Engadget (which unfortunately has gotten worse since Josh left), and the post of the BB 9900 with the FB button, read the post and you'll see it is pure flame bait.

    I don't really care what these "analysts" and "experts" have to say, I use BBs for a long time, and BB7 is one of the best OSes out there. It excels in security and messaging, that's all I need. And with the amount of viruses spreading in Android, I'm happy with RIM.

    PS: I do own an iOS device as well, and that is basically my "gaming console", but it is nowhere near as useful as my BB.
    08-05-11 02:50 PM
  21. jd914's Avatar
    why would you post an article that is purely opinionated?

    stupid thread is stupid.
    It wouldn't be so stupid if it was in blackberrys favor now wouldn't it?
    08-05-11 02:56 PM
  22. ScoobyDoo555's Avatar
    What a bizarre thread.

    Sorry, I'm new to Blackberry, and at present don't even own one (although Wifey has just got a 9800).....

    My take is yes, there's always something new around the corner - Apple, HTC/Android etc are no doubt working on the next best thing for them.

    QNX etc blah blah blah. Let's be honest, the Playbook isn't exactly setting the world on fire (for whatever reason), but QNX isn't the be-all and end-all. As has been proven by the sales so far.

    That said, Blackberry is still a MAJOR player, and is very popular with the buying public.
    The reason I think is that inherently, the Blackberry is perceived as a GOOD reliable product...... the OS (regardless of what the insiders think) is bolted together very well in comparison to its competitors, and it is a polished product.
    And does what it says on tin.


    Sure by the looks of it, RIM's progressive stance could be called into question, but right here, right now, they're in a good position.

    My thoughts are that there are a LOT of RIM-haters out there... or to me more precise, Apple/Android-lovers.....
    Those genuinely questioning RIM are probably mostly on here..... because you know the product very well and know what could be done if the system is developed..... hence the frustration that it's not happening as speedily as you'd hope.

    But from an "outsider's" perspective, the outlook is nowhere near as grim as some people would paint it.....

    Dan
    08-05-11 03:20 PM
  23. Ricktye's Avatar
    I guess it really comes down to, do we want a communication device we can sometimes play games on (Blackberry) or a play thing we can some times communicate on (iPhone or Android). Two different markets and philosophies.....

    Honestly, is there anything wrong with your present device vis a vis the purpose it was designed for IE. a phone and email device? Sometimes, I think we just complain for something to do. Obviously more people want something to play games on (iPhone) than to communicate with, which all present devices do just fine.

    I'm as bad as the next person, I have both a iPhone 4 and a Bold 9700. They both work fine as designed, so why all the hype about new devices? Is it simply to put more coins in the manufactures' pockets or????

    Enlighten me, please....

    R...
    Last edited by Ricktye; 08-05-11 at 03:47 PM.
    08-05-11 03:41 PM
  24. Buzz_Dengue's Avatar
    I guess it really comes down to, do we want a communication device we can sometimes play games on (Blackberry) or a play thing we can some times communicate on (iPhone or Android). Two different markets and philosophies.....

    Honestly, is there anything wrong with your present device vis a vis the purpose it was designed for IE. a phone and email device? Sometimes, I think we just complain for something to do. Obviously more people want something to play games on (iPhone) than to communicate with, which all present devices do just fine.

    I'm as bad as the next person, I have both a iPhone 4 and a Bold 9700. They both work fine as designed, so why all the hype about new devices? Is it simply to put more coins in the manufactures' pockets or????

    Enlighten me, please....

    R...
    It is NOT two different markets. People are frustrated because they KNOW the truth is RIM/Blackberry should be doing better. This is a great example of the poor decision making and disconnect from the consumer that causes a 2,000 employee lay-off announcement... The expectations are HIGH for Blackberry and deservedly so; they have some of the best talent on the planet. Whoever makes these type decisions within the organization for new products ARE the problem. The staid and stale thinkers need culled and outed from the organization and forward, progressive thinkers need to be awarded the reins... juz' sayin'
    08-05-11 04:12 PM
  25. TheIgster's Avatar
    I guess it really comes down to, do we want a communication device we can sometimes play games on (Blackberry) or a play thing we can some times communicate on (iPhone or Android). Two different markets and philosophies.....
    Love this argument.

    I have a personal Android device (Samsung Captivate). I also have a work Android device (Nexus S). I use BOTH as communication devices and occasionally I use my personal device to play a game or two. Please don't paint devices with a single brush stroke.

    Just because it's an iPhone or an Android, doesn't mean some teenage kid owns it and plays games on it and doesn't use it as a phone.

    Thanks.
    Buzz_Dengue likes this.
    08-05-11 04:36 PM
107 ... 2345
LINK TO POST COPIED TO CLIPBOARD