[defcon3]

Hello awesome citizens,

Let me open by saying this is not a piece of news, neither a rumor, just an observation of the tech market and some of my own thoughts.

Remember the days before Apple went all-Intel? Processors were IBM Power, few linux distributions could run (crippled) on their hardware. The day comes when Apple went Intel and OSX86 went through the roof. Being able to run Mac OS X was already possible on devices other than original Mac hardware and results quickly followed.

Some websites now regularly track what hardware can run Hackintosh

The Hackintosh was born and is now thriving. What happened is that other vendors were supplying similar or compatible hardware to the one Apple was, hence the ability to port the OS to those hardware devices.

Now try to transfer this to the mobile phone world. Take PALM and RIM. What if PALM start shipping a device with similar to BlackBerry hardware characteristics? Same processor, same signal chip, keyboard and navigation controllers? Well, naturally, one should be able to run WebOS on this device or vice-versa, run Blackberry OS on it and hack the cr@p out of it.

I realize this is right on the edge but PALM are in a position where they have to go bold or go home. They have nothing to lose and everything to gain which cannot be said for RIM.

Do you think we'll finally see the true birth of HackBerry in the near future? Or will RIM launch a preemptive strike and give us something beautiful to play with?

[backslasher]

I would hope that we see something come from RIM that will knock the sox off soon. Rim is one of the most innovative companies I know, but they need to improve the OS. Phones like the Palm Pre and HTC hero have a large aesthetic value that we have yet to see from RIM.

One thing that I would love to see come down the pipe is some open GL support.

[Devlyn16]

Because of the security focus RIM places on their devices I don't think they would let PLAM ge tto market with such a device.

Rememebr there is a reason why BBs have ESN and PINS

[xxxxpradaxxxx]

I would hope that we see something come from RIM that will knock the sox off soon. Rim is one of the most innovative companies I know, but they need to improve the OS. Phones like the Palm Pre and HTC hero have a large aesthetic value that we have yet to see from RIM.

Innovative? How so?

The only thing that has changed with products made by RIM is the hardware.

Other than that- there has been no innovation in a long long long long long time.

[defcon3]

Because of the security focus RIM places on their devices I don't think they would let PLAM ge tto market with such a device.

Rememebr there is a reason why BBs have ESN and PINS

As much as I agree on this when we are talking about BES and closed corporate use, from a marketing perspective, to the BIS prosumer this is not a selling point, as the emails added to BIS are often in the wild and BIS is merely a transport for whatever is in the wild.

Talking consumer market, this can and will be a killer move - imagine offering a similar experience but on an open (server) platform that Telecoms could support internally themselves? Whoa...

[Devlyn16]

As much as I agree on this when we are talking about BES and closed corporate use, from a marketing perspective, to the BIS prosumer this is not a selling point, as the emails added to BIS are often in the wild and BIS is merely a transport for whatever is in the wild.

Talking consumer market, this can and will be a killer move - imagine offering a similar experience but on an open (server) platform that Telecoms could support internally themselves? Whoa...

Doesnt matter what the prosumer cares for. RIM's security isnt going to let the OS be installed in mass on devices they didnt approve and dont control. Look what happened when psystar tried to install Mac OS on PCs

psystar - Gizmodo

[Dave12308]

Because of the security focus RIM places on their devices I don't think they would let PLAM ge tto market with such a device.

Rememebr there is a reason why BBs have ESN and PINS

PIN numbers are unique to BB. ESNs however are not.

[Sith_Apprentice]

BB is already allowing their software suite on other devices? Virtual BB is also still coming.

[Dave12308]

Doesnt matter what the prosumer cares for. RIM's security isnt going to let the OS be installed in mass on devices they didnt approve and dont control. Look what happened when psystar tried to install Mac OS on PCs

psystar - Gizmodo

Psystar got sued because they were directly violating Apple's EULA and making money off of it in the process. Apple is not going to come after Joe Citizen for installing OS X on his/her PC. Apple probably couldn't care less that I have OS X 10.5.6 running on my Dell mini 9; however if I started selling netbooks with OS X preinstalled, Apple would sue me.

Psystar could have avoided all of their problems by selling their Hackintoshes as a DIY kit (you open and install the OS DVD) - that way, YOU are breaking the EULA on YOUR OWN behalf.

[defcon3]

As Dave already said, I do not see how someone might allow or disallow (lol) the sale of bundled hardware outside patent borders.

All PALM need to do is put in one package the same specs processor, screen, signal module, etc and put WebOS on it. Palm may be unable to look inside the software of berries but can look at the hardware - no problem there:

- one ARM processor (check)
- one ROM module ABC (check)
- one RAM module XYZ (check)
and so on. Put it together, have your engineers make it run WebOS and release in the wild. Nobody will be stupid enough to break any design patents - these boys are in business for decades, they know what intellectual property is and how to work with it. And RIM is going to do what exactly?

Nothing personal, I am speculating on the possibility for a David - Goliath game play here. What is most interesting to me is that if you put your mind to it, this doesn't really require this much of an investment to launch and try on Palm's part. Could very well cost less than their crazy lady ad campaign

[by1333]

Good Read..

[Devlyn16]

BB is already allowing their software suite on other devices? Virtual BB is also still coming.

I stand corrected on that fact, Although I suspect RIM still has some control over the decison and process.

I also still believe that there would be litiagation involved if Palm tried to Mimic RIMs devices. If these things were that much like "lego" the chinese Blueberrys would be much closer to the real thing. You cant just assemble the bricks and have the same thing that is in the picture.


in the end would it be worth the R & D & + lawyer fees to copy someone vs developing your own?

As far as PR goes would you lose more customers thant you gained?

[PredatorGanaz]

Do you really to hold something as blueberry? Kinda have the cheap looks and feel and maybe it is ..

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Aetius]

Psystar got sued because they were directly violating Apple's EULA and making money off of it in the process. Apple is not going to come after Joe Citizen for installing OS X on his/her PC. Apple probably couldn't care less that I have OS X 10.5.6 running on my Dell mini 9; however if I started selling netbooks with OS X preinstalled, Apple would sue me.

Psystar could have avoided all of their problems by selling their Hackintoshes as a DIY kit (you open and install the OS DVD) - that way, YOU are breaking the EULA on YOUR OWN behalf.

That is really awesome

[defcon3]

Following up on the Psystar example and building a little further - how about a Palm Pixie, a bit thicker, that has all the guts/hardware of a BOLD running nothing but a shortcut to the web where it automatically downloads and installs WebOS?

The design is different - no IP there
The OS is different - no EULA there

Something interesting I came across - Ian Murdock, founder of Debian and Linux Guru Extraordinaire - has published his thoughts on BES/BIS independent of Blackberry Service over here: Two-way email synchronization without Blackberry Enterprise Server? � Ian Murdock’s Weblog

If someone at PALM is keeping their eyes and ears open, we might just be at the brink of a new episode of "The Underdog Outshines the Stars"

As Kevin likes to say "Interesting times for the smartphone business"

[Devlyn16]

Following up on the Psystar example and building a little further - how about a Palm Pixie, a bit thicker, that has all the guts/hardware of a BOLD running nothing but a shortcut to the web where it automatically downloads and installs WebOS?

The design is different - no IP there
The OS is different - no EULA there

Something interesting I came across - Ian Murdock, founder of Debian and Linux Guru Extraordinaire - has published his thoughts on BES/BIS independent of Blackberry Service over here: Two-way email synchronization without Blackberry Enterprise Server? � Ian Murdock�s Weblog

If someone at PALM is keeping their eyes and ears open, we might just be at the brink of a new episode of "The Underdog Outshines the Stars"

As Kevin likes to say "Interesting times for the smartphone business"

Again I'm no lawyer but I still have to believe there are laws in place preventing GM from buying component parts to a Toyota engine, assembling it, and then selling that engine in a new "Chevette".

Even if they manage to squeak through legally How do you sell the consumer on it?

HI I'm Fred , spokesperson for Palm. We took the guts of another phone from another manufacturer and put it in a Palm case. Now you can have the best RIM has to offer with our WebOS.

I still maintain the components are not LEGO. you cant just plug them in different spots and be done with it. You would still need to test them to see that they function properly within Heat & other tolerance limits in the new configuration. Test them with your OS to see how that affects their function ETC.

I'm not a lawyer, Engineer, or Programmer but it just doesn't seem feasible to me.

[defcon3]

I'm not a lawyer, Engineer, or Programmer but it just doesn't seem feasible to me.

Then try not to think as a lawyer How many laptop manufacturers do you know who use Intel Centrino chipset+processor that can run Windows/Linux? Any of them replicating each other randomly? Of course not. Still from the top of your head you can name at least five - Lenovo, Asus, MSI, Toshiba, Sony, HP, Apple, DELL, Alienware, Acer, etc.

Quite naturally, nobody expects Palm to behave like a Chinese copy-cat. They can improve on the motherboard design, the layout of components and so on - but trust me, it will be twice as easy working on improving something existing than developing it from scratch themselves.

How to pitch it to customers?
- fastest Palm to date
- best battery life to date
- WebOS
- full email support - IMAP4, push, etc
- security protocols (easy in linux) SSL, crypto keys, etc
- OTA applications
- blinding fast browsing
- on your carrier data plan with gmail or
- on your private server (BES replacement, say Zimba Mobile for kicks)

Worry not about referencing to RIM - the media will be the first to notice and tout how Palm beat RIM to their own game and how awesome it is for any one person to be able to run their private (free of charge) BES-replacement over any carrier network that offers data plan. Take the server, give it to the people/businesses (take it out of carriers), make it all run on free software and guess how the IT/Communication 3yr plan will look like for 90% of companies that pay millions in license fees alone?

[sunshower.beauty]

i think sometimes people forget that blackberry's started out for business people. no average joe or teenager would even think of having a blackberry. i think they also very much still like to focus on the business aspect while trying to please the newfound bb lovers that are not all about business. they may be a little afraid that they won't be seen as repituable for business men and woman if they make bb to pretty and more fun to play with than anything else. like the pre and iphone. i think soon they will start taking more risks and doing bigger and better things that will please all of you. but it's a big world with many different types of people. and not everyone will ever be pleased.

[defcon3]

i think sometimes people forget that blackberry's started out for business people. no average joe or teenager would even think of having a blackberry. i think they also very much still like to focus on the business aspect while trying to please the newfound bb lovers that are not all about business. they may be a little afraid that they won't be seen as repituable for business men and woman if they make bb to pretty and more fun to play with than anything else. like the pre and iphone. i think soon they will start taking more risks and doing bigger and better things that will please all of you. but it's a big world with many different types of people. and not everyone will ever be pleased.

I totally agree - we lately see how RIM open up slowly. Take Storm, take the Curve new additions (multimedia buttons, wow). They will open up to the new market of users, or others will storm (haha) in to take that market.

The thing is they are milking the BES market so heavy it is a question of time before competitors who have nothing to lose offer a free software infrastructure only to sell hardware (handheld) devices

[avt123]

Innovative? How so?

The only thing that has changed with products made by RIM is the hardware.

Other than that- there has been no innovation in a long long long long long time.

My thoughts exactly.

[thesquire]

No offense to the OP but this thread makes no sense.

If you are suggesting that Palm duplicate a RIM device what would be the purpose behind that? Palm is already shipping a device with a faster ARM v7 processor (RIM doesn't), equal or greater amount of ram, they boot their OS off a NAND device so they have a much larger memory (I think 4GB?) and the pre has a high-res screen. I'm not a Palm fanboy but they are *already* shipping comparable devices to BlackBerry. The look & feel of a device is patent or trademark protected so you CAN'T copy the exact look of a device.

Secondly if you are suggesting that someone with a Palm device could load BB OS on it, its not possible (lacks the heavily encrypted boot-rom). Or if you are suggesting that someone could load a BlackBerry with WebOS this is also probably not possible, its less of hardware compatibility and more of a device security that prevents it.

What makes RIM devices fast isn't the hardware its all in the software. To re-create something similar to a BES for Palm devices also isn't cheap. Palm would need to re-create something similar to the RIM NOC which is no easy task. And then on top of that most IT managers would rather stick with a tried and true solution then move to a new and untested one.

I think I wrote enough to make my point, that PALM cannot (and probably doesn't want) to recreate BlackBerry.

[defcon3]

None taken

I think through the follow-up posts the idea to duplicate BES sneaked in silently making it hard to follow and (to an extent) confusing.

To my mind, RIM should have two lines of devices/software:

BES
Solid, encrypted, closed-source, running on BES servers provided by RIM

BIS
More innovative, software encrypted, open source running OTA on any data plan, no servers, plain ability to connect to any POP/IMAP securely. Software encryption should be stepping in after a a "checkbox" OK handover from the hardware chip which hold the boot data, similar to Apple's protection for OS X. Once you wish to join BES, this will no longer handover to "open" system but keep things in the hardware-encrypted loop. Opt out of BES and you are free to add/remove any email you have access to without the need for BIS server.

This way, business users will have (pretty much) what they have now, whereas the whining and never-satisfied-end-users will have multimedia, cool UI, some hacks and tweaks on top of excellent hardware, (perhaps) sacrificing some hardware encryption in exchange.

Does this make it a bit easier to follow? I hope you are not suggesting that mobile email using GSM devices is hard to implement, are you? Peek already have this (Peek - Simply Connected.) WebOS of Palm is basically a stripped-down Linux kernel + modules. You have all sorts of encryption - you name it, it is part of Linux. So it is questionable if any security will be truly sacrificed. Add IM and Social Networks to that, snap some fancy AR features like TAT - The Astonishing Tribe and voila!

I am not aware of patents covering "feel of" any device. Would love to read about it, no doubt. I am worried about HTC with their Ozone and Snap phones, Nokia's E71 and E72 and oh, so many others - they must be preparing for this avalanche of lawsuits for infringing feel-of patents

What I am saying is the following - RIM are pretty conservative and slow in pushing new things to market. At present there are both OS and software solutions that can do more, better. Hungry, recent bankruptcy survivors like Palm will be more than happy to do a facelift of their hardware-in-the-making PIXIE, beef it up, spec it up (microSD, bigger battery, proper cam) and put it out there to claim some existing and profitable market share.

Unlike HTC, Palm *is* a brand, and has a soft spot in the hearts of many.
Unlike Nokia, who are struggling with their newly-found-old-Symbian, Palm has a truly open system, which can *only* improve but never go back (community and hacker feedback).
Unlike Android, basic linux kernel + ssh + AES (WebOS) can go a long way in terms of security.
Unlike RIM, Palm have nothing to lose and everything to gain.

So, thinking out loud, putting the pieces together - do you not see why such a scenario is possible?

[Devlyn16]

Then try not to think as a lawyer How many laptop manufacturers do you know who use Intel Centrino chipset+processor that can run Windows/Linux? Any of them replicating each other randomly? Of course not. Still from the top of your head you can name at least five - Lenovo, Asus, MSI, Toshiba, Sony, HP, Apple, DELL, Alienware, Acer, etc.

)

I think your example is Flawed in that Laptop manufactures are just that equipment manufacturers. All of the componenets of the hardware are DESIGNED with the expectation they will be sold to "manufacturers" who will assemble them into devices running a Windows OS. Computers/Laptops are much closer to "Lego" than cell phones. this is why so many consumers build/upgrade the hardware their own devices. Howmany do that for cell phones?

RIM manufactures the equipment and the OS.

Really this whole thing sounds to me like it would go the way of National Comics Publications v. Fawcett Publications National Comics Publications v. Fawcett Publications - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
AKA Superman vs. Captian Marvel (Shazam)


I believe those Copyrights are different than the exact legalities of what we are discussing but in the end if the legal system can be drawn out suffiently to force a settlement in the above case I can see RIMs pockets doing the same to PALM.

[defcon3]

After all, PALM might not make it out of their hole at all...

Palm Eos coming in October, or next year, or some other time, or never

If PALM do not launch a new device that will wash away the memories of Pre, they may crash gloriously after their amazing re-birth.

[smnc]

I think your example is Flawed in that Laptop manufactures are just that equipment manufacturers. All of the componenets of the hardware are DESIGNED with the expectation they will be sold to "manufacturers" who will assemble them into devices running a Windows OS. Computers/Laptops are much closer to "Lego" than cell phones. this is why so many consumers build/upgrade the hardware their own devices. Howmany do that for cell phones?

RIM manufactures the equipment and the OS.

I don't think we're all on the same page. Smartphone and Notebook design do have a LOT in common.

Notebooks are made of components like CPUs, RAM, Networking chips, screens, etc. These components are supplied to the notebook manufacturer by companies like Intel, Micron, Atheros and NEC. Many different notebook manufacturers make similar notebooks, often using the same or similar parts.

Smartphones are also made of components like CPUs, RAM, networking chips and screens. These are also supplied by a variety of manufacturers (many of whom are the same companies that build parts for laptops).

Many of the parts for both basically are "LEGO" parts. Your phone or computer doesn't care if its RAM was made by Micron or Samsung; as long as it's spec'd the same, it works the same. Other parts are much more specific. A radio chip made by Qualcomm is not going to be compatible with one made by Motorolla. Even radio components with the same capabilities will need to have software specifically written for them.
That said, cell phones are usually made with as many universal parts as possible to lower costs. There's no reason why a Palm, Nokia, or even a Sony Ericsson couldn't use the same radio chip as a BlackBerry. Ditto CPUs. Designing Silicone Chips is a complicated and expensive process, so it's prohibitive for phone companies to have chips built explicitly for their phones.

Computers have been deisgned with many common interfaces (PCI, USB, etc.) which lowers cost and provides more flexibility in design, however these interfaces are not space efficient, which is why you see fewer upgradeable parts on a notebook than a desktop. However, most parts of a desktop and a notebook are very similar, and function in the same manner.
Likewise, although smartphones have virtually no upgradeable parts, most of the parts in your BlackBerry are similar to their counterparts on a notebook.

Don't confuse easy upgradability with commonality. Just because something is soldered on instead of socketed doesn't mean it's not interchangeable with a different part.


EDIT:
Whew, I just read my own post... Sorry for the super long post/rant, I ramble on when I'm sleep deprived...