[keyboardweeb]

That, I think is the point. If BBM is secure enough for you and you like it, then that is what matters for you.

All well and good, but in the end, "ML12 likes it" should not be a criteria to consider when ranking BBM in terms of its security. I happen to really, really like Opera 12.16. This does not mean it should not be outscored by more modern browsers when ranked by security features. Similarly, I really, really like the keyboard on the Classic, but as time goes by I will eventually be unable to use it because the phone itself will become obsolete and nigh unusable. It will not be topping any "best phones of today" lists...ever.

[anon(9864623)]

So let's talk about the reported breaches and whether they impact the the privacy of WA or iM messages.

But are you saying AI should have ranked BBM, which has no e2e encryption at all, higher? BBM isn't even making any reasonable attempt to keep a user's messages private using one key for so many years.

I'm not saying that, my opinion is I find what AI say misleading as there are some services that don't have the best track record for security and privacy.

[anon(9864623)]

So in your mind, a service that has no reported breaches is more secure than one that has--even if that service is known to implement less security than others.

Let's put that into perspective.

Banks get robbed, but my house has never been. Therefore, I will keep all my money at home.

Seems legit.

I'm not saying that no reported breaches is more secure. Unfortunately both banks and houses do get robbed. If a device gets hacked then e2e isn't effective, I don't happen to agree with what AI says as they are not experts in this area that is all.

[anon(9864623)]

All well and good, but in the end, "ML12 likes it" should not be a criteria to consider when ranking BBM in terms of its security. I happen to really, really like Opera 12.16. This does not mean it should not be outscored by more modern browsers when ranked by security features. Similarly, I really, really like the keyboard on the Classic, but as time goes by I will eventually be unable to use it because the phone itself will become obsolete and nigh unusable. It will not be topping any "best phones of today" lists...ever.

As I posted earlier, it's an individual choice and I don't say that me liking it is criteria to consider.

[aiharkness]

All well and good, but in the end, "ML12 likes it" should not be a criteria to consider when ranking BBM in terms of its security. I happen to really, really like Opera 12.16. This does not mean it should not be outscored by more modern browsers when ranked by security features. Similarly, I really, really like the keyboard on the Classic, but as time goes by I will eventually be unable to use it because the phone itself will become obsolete and nigh unusable. It will not be topping any "best phones of today" lists...ever.

I'm simply saying there is another dimension to the bank versus home analogy, and hence also to this whole argument over that ranking. And I didn't say the personal decision is based only on what you like. I included also whether your chosen solution is secure enough for you.

You can't separate that ranking from the criteria. That's fine. You can say A is better than B if you accept the criteria. But what matters in your world is what is the best match for you given your needs.

[keyboardweeb]

As I posted earlier, it's an individual choice and I don't say that me liking it is criteria to consider.

In this case, I am not sure exactly what you are saying at all. I'm just not getting your point here at all. Should BBM be rated higher? If so, why?

Based on the criteria outlined by Amnesty the low grade is deserved. I find the criteria to be reasonable and I can't disagree with the rankings for any quantifiable reason.

You can't separate that ranking from the criteria. That's fine. You can say A is better than B if you accept the criteria. But what matters in your world is what is the best match for you given your needs.

Criteria are important. If one is picking a vehicle on the basis of safety, it doesn't matter very much that a motorcycle is a lot more fun than say, a minivan.

And of course, I understand that what one chooses is usually the best for what one needs. I wanted a phone with a keyboard and I wanted it to have LTE. There were precisely two phones that fit those criteria--Passport and Classic--and I chose the Classic. Partly because they didn't have a Passport in the store.

Posted on my Model M

[llamax]

EFF supports Signal. That should be the top go-to messaging app for security and privacy.

Here is EFF's take on Whatsapp from 10/13.

[aiharkness]

In this case, I am not sure exactly what you are saying at all. I'm just not getting your point here at all. Should BBM be rated higher? If so, why?

Based on the criteria outlined by Amnesty the low grade is deserved. I find the criteria to be reasonable and I can't disagree with the rankings for any quantifiable reason.



Criteria are important. If one is picking a vehicle on the basis of safety, it doesn't matter very much that a motorcycle is a lot more fun than say, a minivan.

And of course, I understand that what one chooses is usually the best for what one needs. I wanted a phone with a keyboard and I wanted it to have LTE. There were precisely two phones that fit those criteria--Passport and Classic--and I chose the Classic. Partly because they didn't have a Passport in the store.

Posted on my Model M

Criteria matter to the degree the user of that information understands it and the degree it applies.

In the back of my mind I have memory of all the questions and discussions I've read over the years on BlackBerry forums. There's not end to end encryption, what? Oh my! Yet there is no thought to the total picture. People read an article or something like this and think they have their answer.

[Loc22]

All of it.

Did you?

Yes, I did. They did say there is a team of lawyers who verify if the requests and warrants are sufficient before releasing any information.

To be totally fair I believe that BlackBerry has had no choice but to do this last time as they required BIS and BES for their BBM services. Certain governments around the world issued an ultimatum forcing them to release information or they will be shut down. Well that is history.

Perhaps the new services do not require that. I guess BlackBerry will have to find a way to be more rogue in a way so that they can deny government of information. However I'm sure WhatsApp do release information to the government and authorities without any fuss. Just that they are Facebook hence, nobody will report about them unfavourably.

[keyboardweeb]

Perhaps the new services do not require that. I guess BlackBerry will have to find a way to be more rogue in a way so that they can deny government of information. However I'm sure WhatsApp do release information to the government and authorities without any fuss. Just that they are Facebook hence, nobody will report about them unfavourably.

I love how you characterize it as "being rogue" and then you seem to think Facebook doesn't have any detractors and press won't report negatively about them.

Governments can come knocking all they want, but WhatsApp can't hand over what they don't actually have (ie, message contents), and that applies to all WhatsApp users, not just enterprise users like with BlackBerry. It's not a matter of "being rogue" at all to simply say, "Sorry, we ain't got what you're looking for."

Posted on my Model M

[anon(9864623)]

[QUOTE=keyboardweeb;12638303]In this case, I am not sure exactly what you are saying at all. I'm just not getting your point here at all. Should BBM be rated higher? If so, why?

Based on the criteria outlined by Amnesty the low grade is deserved. I find the criteria to be reasonable and I can't disagree with the rankings for any quantifiable reason.

You find it reasonable, which I accept that's your opinion. What AI reports I don't have to agree with.

[Loc22]

I love how you characterize it as "being rogue" and then you seem to think Facebook doesn't have any detractors and press won't report negatively about them.

Governments can come knocking all they want, but WhatsApp can't hand over what they don't actually have (ie, message contents), and that applies to all WhatsApp users, not just enterprise users like with BlackBerry. It's not a matter of "being rogue" at all to simply say, "Sorry, we ain't got what you're looking for."

Posted on my Model M

That's not true WhatsApp do store the messages and there has never been any negative reports about Facebook before. At least I have never seen or heard of any before.

[keyboardweeb]

That's not true WhatsApp do store the messages

No they don't.

and there has never been any negative reports about Facebook before. At least I have never seen or heard of any before.

If you've never seen any negative press about Facebook, you simply haven't been paying any attention.

[Loc22]

No they don't.



If you've never seen any negative press about Facebook, you simply haven't been paying any attention.

Explain to me how WhatsApp do this.

Someone sends you some messages and some documents together with some pictures and voice notes when your phone is shut down while you are in a 1 month vacation. Or you decide to delete WhatsApp without deleting your account for 1 month.

After your 1 month vacation, you switch your phone on again with the WhatsApp and all these messages come in. Where were those messages kept so that you can still get them?

[Ment]

Explain to me how WhatsApp do this.

Someone sends you some messages and some documents together with some pictures and voice notes when your phone is shut down while you are in a 1 month vacation. Or you decide to delete WhatsApp without deleting your account for 1 month.

After your 1 month vacation, you switch your phone on again with the WhatsApp and all these messages come in. Where were those messages kept so that you can still get them?

Imagine your messages are like a safe being transported back and forth between you and your contacts. Just because UPS/Fedex might know that your safe is waiting to be picked up doesn't mean they know how to crack it and get to its contents. In e2e WA doesn't know the combination and once its 'delivered' to you they don't have the container either.

[Alain_A]

Imagine your messages are like a safe being transported back and forth between you and your contacts. Just because UPS/Fedex might know that your safe is waiting to be picked up doesn't mean they know how to crack it and get to its contents. In e2e WA doesn't know the combination and once its 'delivered' to you they don't have the container either.

He is talking when one phone is off. Where the sent message being store? Once the sender push that button

[Alain_A]

It has to be in transit somewhe (sitting )

[bobshine]

BBM is encrypted, but to my knowledge, with a common key. So anyone who has that key can just read your messages

[bobshine]

That's not true WhatsApp do store the messages and there has never been any negative reports about Facebook before. At least I have never seen or heard of any before.

Yeah but without the private key, even if they store the message temporarily somewhere, it's impossible to read those messages.

[keyboardweeb]

So they do store it temporarily.

From https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/#priv...ion-we-collect -

If a message cannot be delivered immediately (for example, if you are offline), we may keep it on our servers for up to 30 days as we try to deliver it. If a message is still undelivered after 30 days, we delete it.

It's still encrypted of course, and unreadable to anyone except the sender and receiver unless the key has been compromised.

[bobshine]

So they do store it temporarily.

From https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/#priv...ion-we-collect -


It's still encrypted of course, and unreadable to anyone except the sender and receiver unless the key has been compromised.

Yeah that's the idea... or else it would be unusable. Any messages has to be stored temporarily, either a fraction of a second to a few days.

[Ment]

He is talking when one phone is off. Where the sent message being store? Once the sender push that button

As noted, WA stores the encrypted message temporarily much like if you're not home for a delivery that requires a signature, a service might leave a tag with a notice of re-delivery or that you can pick it up at the nearest post office or distribution point. Still doesn't mean the safe can be cracked by UPS/Fedex.

[Alain_A]

So WA will be the good to go for criminal as oppose of BB

[app_Developer]

So WA will be the good to go for criminal as oppose of BB

BBM Protected would also be a good choice for criminals willing to pay.

On the other hand, e2ee is also good for people who are working to change/evolve their culture or government. Or simply have other things they wish to discuss with their family or colleagues with privacy. This is true for the majority of the world.

[Loc22]

BBM Protected would also be a good choice for criminals willing to pay.

On the other hand, e2ee is also good for people who are working to change/evolve their culture or government. Or simply have other things they wish to discuss with their family or colleagues with privacy. This is true for the majority of the world.

Well as I know Visa, Mastercard & BBM use the same 3des standard for encryption. So if I have to trust my money on this standard I guess it's not too scary to trust my messages being encrypted on the same standard too right?