[Bbnivende]

c Bolds 9900 are the biggest part of the market. Companies buy them by the dozen.
Phone wise they're the equivalent of the company ar.

Bolds 9900 were the biggest part of the market. Companies used to buy them by the dozen.
Phone wise they're the equivalent of getting to the front of the rental car line and all they have left is a Dodge Avenger.

[johnnyuk]

Better to aim at the small BlackBerry 7 market than at the even smaller BlackBerry 10 market. Honest question, if you consider BlackBerry 7 a "small" market, what sort of market is BlackBerry 10? Tiny?

It might be time for BlackBerry to consider cutting their losses on the failure that is BlackBerry 10.

Any vendor of a technology platform that can only sell to its existing customer base is doomed to failure in the long run unless it can diversifying like hell and create new revenue streams. Let's hope they can because BBOS is not a long term money maker, this is a short term fix for Enterprises that can't yet move on only. Eventually too many people who currently rely on BBOS phones and simply 'must' have one will move on to something else, not necessarily a BlackBerry product, and for a variety of reasons. Inertia will kill it over time.

If BlackBerry kill off BlackBerry 10 they may as well get out of the phone hardware market altogether. To stay in with BBOS phones only would leave them right back at the square 1 they were facing in 2010. Attempting to develop BBOS and it's phones is a non-starter. BlackBerry realised BBOS was a technology dead end that they couldn't program their way out of even when they were cash rich and had double the staff. They have absolutely no chance of modernising BBOS now.

I'll mention just a couple of reasons for this because the list of reasons is big, technical and complex. BBOS doesn't even support running on multiple core CPUs. All BBOS phones up to the present day (and the ones being re-manufactured) have single core CPUS. Yes even today in 2014.

That is a huge, huge technical challenge to overcome because of the "bowl of spaghetti" way that BBOS developed over the years. I'll now sum up BlackBerry's software development methodology over the last decade. "Hey, there's this new version of BBOS being developed that needs a load of new features and new sets of API's. How are we going to bolt all that on to what started out as a Pager OS? Easy, just pile on another 100 spoons full of spaghetti code in to the bowl!".

Ever wonder why BBOS 7 phones suffer lag the worst of all BBOS phones to the point where daily reboots are a necessity? Ever wonder why their battery life is the poorest of any BBOS phone? Ever wonder why in 2014 you still have to reboot the phone after installing or uninstalling apps? All examples of how BBOS has been stretched too thinly to try to offer modern features and functionality that it was never originally designed to be able to do. In some cases because of its secure Enterprise background BBOS was originally designed specifically not to do some of the things is does today and had to be hacked and kludged to make some kind of half baked solution work.

All of that desperately needed to be unravelled and sorted out years ago to have a hope in hell of competing with iOS and Android. BlackBerry bottled it back in 2009/2010 when they had ample software development resources and bought in QNX instead. They won't even consider trying to modernise BBOS now because they will simply fail to achieve it with the resources they now have.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

[anon(153966)]

If a new BOLD had an OS with the speed of BB10, I'd be happy.


Sent from my iPad using CB Forums

[johnnyuk]

If a new BOLD had an OS with the speed of BB10, I'd be happy.


Sent from my iPad using CB Forums

Never... gonna.... happen I'm afraid. For all kinds of reasons both financial and technical.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

[Bookshelf]

[QUOTE=naviwilliams;10182642]If a new BOLD had an OS with the speed of BB10, I'd be happy.

Thats sound like what their shooting for with the Q20.

[Bookshelf]

[QUOTE=Tank1978;10182403]How many are they producing?

They solid 2.3 million Bolds and Curves, which is double BlackBerry 10 sales.
I'm not cheering about that.... just the facts. 2/3rd of the customers are OS7.

[johnnyuk]

Yes, and I'd be mildly surprised if it was the Bold 9900. More cost effective Bolds came after.

Only the 9790 and it's too small for serious use in the Enterprise today. Only if you have hands the size of a child's for the tiny keys and eyes like a hawk for reading the tiny screen can you live with one.

Where I deployed them at work they have been universally unpopular for those reasons and of course for the usual BBOS 7 reasons such as lag, poor browser, lag, slow boot up, lag, lock ups that require a battery pull, lag, no apps, did I mention they lag?

People who use them where I work can't wait to upgrade early to anything else, and they then sit in my stock unused as I can't even give them away without them coming back like a bad penny when the users get too frustrated with them.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

[belfastdispatcher]

Never... gonna.... happen I'm afraid. For all kinds of reasons both financial and technical.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

Haven't you learned yet never to say "never"?


#believeinfilm

[johnnyuk]

Haven't you learned yet never to say "never"?
#believeinfilm

Haven't you learned yet what will sink BlackBerry for good?! That BBOS Dinosaur phone you crave, the 'updated' 9900 running BBOS 8 isn't coming. It would almost break the bank to develop it and the return just wouldn't be worth it.

This is more 2011 spec 9900's running BBOS 7.1 for regulated Enterprises that can't or won't move on yet. Keep on kidding yourself otherwise if it makes you feel better though.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

[Raddin]

Any vendor of a technology platform that can only sell to its existing customer base is doomed to failure in the long run unless it can diversifying like hell and create new revenue streams. Let's hope they can because BBOS is not a long term money maker, this is a short term fix for Enterprises that can't yet move on only. Eventually too many people who currently rely on BBOS phones and simply 'must' have one will move on to something else, not necessarily a BlackBerry product, and for a variety of reasons. Inertia will kill it over time.

If BlackBerry kill off BlackBerry 10 they may as well get out of the phone hardware market altogether. To stay in with BBOS phones only would leave them right back at the square 1 they were facing in 2010. Attempting to develop BBOS and it's phones is a non-starter. BlackBerry realised BBOS was a technology dead end that they couldn't program their way out of even when they were cash rich and had double the staff. They have absolutely no chance of modernising BBOS now.

I'll mention just a couple of reasons for this because the list of reasons is big, technical and complex. BBOS doesn't even support running on multiple core CPUs. All BBOS phones up to the present day (and the ones being re-manufactured) have single core CPUS. Yes even today in 2014.

That is a huge, huge technical challenge to overcome because of the "bowl of spaghetti" way that BBOS developed over the years. I'll now sum up BlackBerry's software development methodology over the last decade. "Hey, there's this new version of BBOS being developed that needs a load of new features and new sets of API's. How are we going to bolt all that on to what started out as a Pager OS? Easy, just pile on another 100 spoons full of spaghetti code in to the bowl!".

Ever wonder why BBOS 7 phones suffer lag the worst of all BBOS phones to the point where daily reboots are a necessity? Ever wonder why their battery life is the poorest of any BBOS phone? Ever wonder why in 2014 you still have to reboot the phone after installing or uninstalling apps? All examples of how BBOS has been stretched too thinly to try to offer modern features and functionality that it was never originally designed to be able to do. In some cases because of its secure Enterprise background BBOS was originally designed specifically not to do some of the things is does today and had to be hacked and kludged to make some kind of half baked solution work.

All of that desperately needed to be unravelled and sorted out years ago to have a hope in hell of competing with iOS and Android. BlackBerry bottled it back in 2009/2010 when they had ample software development resources and bought in QNX instead. They won't even consider trying to modernise BBOS now because they will simply fail to achieve it with the resources they now have.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

That is a really long reply with a bunch of information I already knew.

I know OS7 devices won't save BlackBerry. Probably nothing will at this point. All I was saying is the undeniable truth of the situation. Legacy devices are helping the company out a lot more than BB10 is. BB10 is a mulit-billion dollar money pit that should have been taken out back and shot a while ago.

I think BlackBerry should have never created BB10. They should have kept the legacy devices going for consumers in emerging markets and corporations and made devices running a BlackBerry flavored Android for everyone else. Think of all the time, money and resources they would have saved if they had done that instead of wasting billions on BB10.

But it is too late for that now. Now we have BlackBerry 10. The platform that is such a massive failure that it can't even match the numbers of the so called horrible legacy OS.

At this point, keeping BB10 alive is just dumb. Does anyone honestly think releasing more unwanted BB10 phones will change anything? Wasn't the Z10 gonna be the savior? Then wasn't the Q10 gonna right the ship? Oh and the Z30, that was the best BlackBerry every!

Eventually, they need to cut their losses and move on or just let BB10 drag them into the grave.

[johnnyuk]

At this point, keeping BB10 alive is just dumb. Does anyone honestly think releasing more unwanted BB10 phones will change anything? Wasn't the Z10 gonna be the savior? Then wasn't the Q10 gonna right the ship? Oh and the Z30, that was the best BlackBerry every!

Chen seems to think releasing more BB10 phones will make money, and the media seem to think he knows what he is talking about and doing so let's wait and see.

Thorsten thought (or told the world, whether he believed it or not) that the Z10 and Q10 were going to sell tens of millions. He over predicted demand and didn't take any preventative measures to ensure that if he was wrong BlackBerry wouldn't be hit with huge financial losses. And for his failure he is gone.

The reasons for the poor BB10 sales are many, complex and have regional variations but the one thing that Chen is making sure of that Thorsten failed to do is that if phones don't sell as expected BlackBerry doesn't lose money on the unsold inventory any more. That problem was bleeding BlackBerry dry.

In terms of where you think BlackBerry has to get back to in order to continue to exist I think you're way off. You're picturing BlackBerry as they used to be, a giant of the smartphone world in both consumer land and Enterprise, and you're expecting that that's what Chen is aiming to get back to. It is not. Those days and that BlackBerry is all gone, they will probably never get back there ever again.

Chen's focus is only on the parts of the world where he can make money from selling to the consumer (developing countries, and even then only some of them) and Enterprise. He just wants to start making a profit again however small his customer base is. Chen's BlackBerry is nothing like even the BlackBerry that Thorsten led last year for one last push over the trenches to go for global consumer success. There will be no more going for the consumer dollar in the western world, that fight is lost.

A decade ago BlackBerry's share price was measured in cents not dollars and they would bite your arm off if you could offer them sales of 1 million phones per quarter. But they were making money hand over fist. For the short to medium term BlackBerry doesn't have to sell 10 million phones a quarter or whatever figure people day dream about. They just have to start making a profit again. That's all. Chen has done well getting operating costs down and the cash haemorrhage has slowed. If the new BB10 phones don't sell it's not BlackBerry that lose money on unsold inventory. And he is not finished yet by a long way.

Oh and the Z30 is the best BlackBerry ever made by a country mile, mine is just inspirational, but it has received no marketing whatsoever from BlackBerry or any carriers. Tech media reviews and long term tests of the Z30 are positive, which is unusual for a BlackBerry phone in this day and age, it's just that nobody out there knows it exists or where you can buy it from.

Eventually, they need to cut their losses and move on or just let BB10 drag them into the grave.

Move on to what? They don't have the resources now to come up with yet another mobile OS and platform or redevelop BBOS. If they pull the plug on BB10 then they may as well pull out of making phones altogether once the 'demand' for BBOS phones in Enterprise inevitably dries up. Then they will be just another software and services company (and CrackBerry will be no more). I don't want to see that happen, and you can't blame the company for at least trying to avoid that and for not going out without a fight. What's Chen supposed to do, just roll over and give up immediately without trying? He believes he can start making money again selling phones, let's see if he is right.

For the record I agree that making a secure Android fork was a viable option back when BB10 was first being planned as BBX, and BlackBerry did consider it, but unfortunately the people in charge of making the decision, Lazaridis, Balsille and Thorsten included, were too arrogantly blinkered in an inward looking inward thinking "we know best" mentality.

Secure Android forks are being worked on only in the last year by a few companies as a way to get Android in to Enterprise so BlackBerry could have stolen a march on their competitors. Unfortunately I don't believe they have the resources to start on that from scratch now as a Plan B after BB10 unless they get bought up by a very rich company.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

[Orange UK]

If there is no UMA chip in it its a right step backwards, as was wifi calling app as a weird version of 'UPDATED' UMA lol

I'm looking at a Torch for touchscreen, real UMA & BIS....something deeply wrong in Blackberry when you have to take a old handset to have all the things you need as a consumer...

[Orange UK]

There will be no more going for the consumer dollar in the western world, that's fight is lost.

Not really, see my post above... removing 3 major selling points over the last few years and investing in BB10 and leaving these core assets out even BB10, pitiful products to market. You never had it so good when your current products are sh1t compared to previous products and consumers have to buy backwards not current products.

[Bbnivende]

I really appreciate Johnny's thoughtful response.

The part of Chen's plan that troubles me, is the notion that enterprise and prosumers are seeking phones with physical keyboards. I think that a cheaper phone like a Z3 running LTE might find more traction. Can they not make a BIS variant for certain markets ?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app

[Shanerredflag]

Well...I agree with a bunch and don't with a few (comments made) but this needs to be said...if margin exists and people want it AND it will help BlackBerry survive I don't see why they shouldn't.



Is that a Z30...yes, yes it is.

[Orange UK]

[QUOTE=Bookshelf;10182713]

How many are they producing?

They solid 2.3 million Bolds and Curves, which is double BlackBerry 10 sales.
I'm not cheering about that.... just the facts. 2/3rd of the customers are OS7.

And all them and older BIS handset users are financially keeping the company afloat with BIS revenue...

[Orange UK]

Only the 9790 and it's too small for serious use in the Enterprise today. Only if you have hands the size of a child's for the tiny keys and eyes like a hawk for reading the tiny screen can you live with one.

Where I deployed them at work they have been universally unpopular for those reasons and of course for the usual BBOS 7 reasons such as lag, poor browser, lag, slow boot up, lag, lock ups that require a battery pull, lag, no apps, did I mention they lag?

People who use them where I work can't wait to upgrade early to anything else, and they then sit in my stock unused as I can't even give them away without them coming back like a bad penny when the users get too frustrated with them.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

If BB10 devices had BIS they be out the door and Blackberry sales and BIS revenue UP, why consumers are deprived BIS is beyond sensible reasoning, this ship is still sinking by cutting off any source of income whilst still trying to gain market share with BB10.

BB7/10 touchscreen with BIS, UMA chip, 4G, NFC, great sound (Playbook-esque), wireless charging and a alphanumeric keypad and I'm there, SOLD. 12 months left before upgrade or BlackBerry is gone (well touchwood my Playbook will still be wifi usable) and I'll be back on Windows Phones for both my handsets and tablet needs, as will the rest of the family...



I'm not asking for a miracle just features my BB devices had before to be reinstated with the processing power like the rest of the market, BB7 hangs...should have left the building

[johnnyuk]

Not really, see my post above... removing 3 major selling points over the last few years and investing in BB10 and leaving these core assets out even BB10, pitiful products to market. You never had it so good when your current products are sh1t compared to previous products and consumers have to buy backwards not current products.

If UMA and BIS are what consumers want then why aren't consumers hammering on the counters in phone shops demanding BBOS phones by the tens of millions every quarter instead of iPhones and Android phones?

Sometimes I wonder what version of reality some people in this forum live in.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

[johnnyuk]

I really appreciate Johnny's thoughtful response.

The part of Chen's plan that troubles me, is the notion that enterprise and prosumers are seeking phones with physical keyboards. I think that a cheaper phone like a Z3 running LTE might find more traction. Can they not make a BIS variant for certain markets ?

Sent from my Nexus 7 using CB Forums mobile app

Thanks, I appreciate your comment.

I too am worried about Chen's fixation on physical keyboards. It's the only part of Chen's plans of which he has spoke about that I doubt. My experience as a BESAdmin tells me everyday at work that people do not crave physical keyboards on their phones at work any more, they have long since moved on from that.

A BIS variant of the Z3 running BlackBerry 10 is not realistically possible without rewriting a heck of a lot of the OS. It currently contains no ability whatsoever to make use of BIS, so that's not gonna happen with the way BlackBerry's resources are right now. If it was being worked on for the Z3 we'd have seen the functionality appear in recent leaks of the OS.

Posted via CB10 on Z30 STA100-2 /10.2.1.2141 on O2 UK - Activated on BES10.2.1

[Troy Tiscareno]

I too am worried about Chen's fixation on physical keyboards. It's the only part of Chen's plans of which he has spoke about that I doubt. My experience as a BESAdmin tells me everyday at work that people do not crave physical keyboards on their phones at work any more, they have long since moved in from that.

Agreed with both of you. I fear Chen is listening to a tiny minority that is out of touch with the vast majority, even of enterprise users.

A BIS variant of the Z3 running BlackBerry 10 is not realistically possible without rewriting a heck of a lot of the OS. It currently contains no ability whatsoever to make use of BIS, so that's not gonna happen with the way BlackBerry's resources are right now. If it was being worked on for the Z3 we'd have seen the functionality appear in recent leaks if the OS.

Not only that, but most BIS functions are either unneeded with today's tech or are actually harmful. Most modern email services offer ActiveSync, so using a BIS server to "create" push email makes little sense. And the data compression, which made sense on 2G networks, only slows down 4G networks and limits what services work. No one who understands how these things work are clamoring to have them back.

Even in most emerging markets, 3G is becoming the norm, data costs are falling, and BIS has become much less important as a result.

[Shanerredflag]

Agreed w


ith both of you. I fear Chen is listening to a tiny minority that is out of touch with the vast majority, even of enterprise users
Not only that, but most BIS functions are either unneeded with today's tech or are actually harmful. Most modern email services offer ActiveSync, so using a BIS server to "create" push email makes little sense. And the data compression, which made sense on 2G networks, only slows down 4G
networks and limits what services work. No one who understands how these things work are clamoring to have them back.

Even in most emerging markets, 3G is becoming the norm, data costs are falling, and BIS has become much less important as a result.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think the new OS or BES creates a "push" like your suggesting....In fact it's more attuned to your example is it not?

[Shanerredflag]

Yup...I think that's correct.

[extisis]

Phone wise they're the equivalent of getting to the front of the rental car line and all they have left is a Dodge Avenger.

you did NOT just compare a BlackBerry to a Dodge. no way.

[milo53]

Since there are many threads sprouting up I will reproduce my comment.

Background:

1. I listened to the entire call and QA.

2. My company as of a month ago was still buying the 9900 and have just recently approved the BB10 devices; all 3 as in Q and Z10 and Z30.

3. Every upgrade at my company has been to a bb10 device as they became available. Not ONE person has asked for the legacy device.

Facts:
- They are restarting the bold 9900 line.
- Buying on a cost variable model versus previously it was firm commitment. Chen specifically said they will not lose money on the hardware in this setup.
The deal is with Wisteron(?) not Foxconn

My thoughts:

- enterprise wants bes 12 before moving to BB10 and so staying with 9900. Chen's comments lead me to believe this + experience in my company.
- bulk of BB10 sales are consumer. Why? Announced enterprise #s are small and companies like mine are just starting to move to bb10. It took between BlackBerry and our IT department a year to test and roll out BES10. The reason we did it is because we were on an older bes then 5 and we were in a need of an upgrade. If we were on bes 5 we would have waited until Nov for bes 12 before going to bb10 devices.

- Chen has probably been hearing that the enterprise transition will likely begin in earnest once bes 12 is out. And he needs to keep his clients happy till then with device replacement when they break

- couple this with the good deal they have struck from a cost perspective for producing 9900 and it's a win win for BlackBerry

My conclusion is that until upcoming Q4 legacy will outsell bb10. Z3 and Q20 in consumer space will accelerate (how much is anyone's guess hoping for a lot)

And that Q1 is when the tide will turn decisively as bes 12 and bb10 accelerate.

G

Posted via CB10

Posted via CB10

Exactly! If the demand is there, then supply that demand.

BB is in no position to kill off any revenue streams.

[Bishkin]

Maybe a business model that takes away what the customers want and give them what they don't want is a challenging proof of concept.