[Khashayar24]

According to a friend of mine RIM has confirmed that they will discontinue the necessariness of BIS on BB10 Devices.
The following article has been published on a reliable german mobile site:
http://www.areamobile.de/news/22534-...et-service-bis




Sent from my BlackBerry

[aragone79]

If you already try new OS for BB 10 Alpha device, yes, BIS is not necessary for it. Why? all you have to do is just make sure you subscribe mobile internet connection from your carrier. and you can use BBM on BB 10 Alpha.

[Plazmic Flame]

This would actually be a godsend for me. I've been burned way too many times buying used Blackberry devices, only to find the PIN is in bad standing for some reason with it's carrier of origin. Stopped buying and reselling them because of it, just bad business. This will definitely help Berry devices maintain a higher resale value.

[Branta]

Sorry to hear you got scammed. A blocked PIN usually implies an illegally sold pre-release device which is still owned by RIM. A blocked IMEI is more often a sign of a stolen device or one on contract with outstanding debt.

[GTiLeo]

The demoed devices show the BIS symbol so I'm sure BIS will be incorperated once the devices are released

[greatwiseone]

I don't think it's "BIS" as we currently know it. I don't think the data is being routed through RIM NOC's the way current BIS works. It'll be more like how the 4G Playbook works.

[GTiLeo]

Thorsten was talking about consumers wanting their data compression

[Urucubaca]

BIS is one of the things that make Blackberry more unique.

[Mr_Comet]

I hope the new BB10 devices will support BIS/BES and Ordinary Data plans. People can choose what kinda plan they want depending on their needs instead of forcing everyone to use BIS/BES without choice.

[timmy t]

Data compression may be more important in some regions of the world where they are still on slower cellular systems or pay heavily for their data usage. In NA, some carriers are going for unlimited data usage.

[AWK47]

So a few questions come to mind. If the BB10 devices no longer need BIS does RIM still get the $5 per device for providing the backend?

And if they lose that fee doesnt that basically cut their revenue in half?

Will it still have data compression?

Will it still be as secure with PIN and BBM?

[timmy t]

AWK, that is the big question. I assume that you will need to pay for using BBM, otherwise they would be reducing a large portion of their revenue stream. At the same time, can you image how much BBM video conferencing will strain their servers if everything has to go through them? Maybe you have to set up an account that costs $5/month and allows certain functionality, whether or not it goes through the BB servers. Some token with an expiry date can be put on your systems so that it is there and can be read even if the system is down for maintenance.

[bluetroll]

i don't buy this... data compression is a bonus... i'm quite sure carriers love it too...

my friends that are on the GS3 have already told me that LTE has already dropped in speed since the introduction of the iPhone5.

and also, you wouldn't want to alienate your goldmine of customers in nigeria, indonesia, malaysia, phillipines, etc... the reason why they use BB is because of data compression, it's why the carriers push it.

[Roo Zilla]

...and also, you wouldn't want to alienate your goldmine of customers in nigeria, indonesia, malaysia, phillipines, etc... the reason why they use BB is because of data compression, it's why the carriers push it.

Not exactly. I'm not sure if I would call RIM's sales to emerging markets a "goldmine." Last quarter they sold over 7 million units and lost money. In 2008 they sold about the same in a quarter and made money. What's the difference? In 2008 they primarily sold high end devices to established markets. That's why BB10 is so important for RIM, it might allow them to actually make money selling smartphones. Also, the reason BB is popular in emerging markets is not because of data compression. It's because of BBM. All the marketing in those countries is pointed at BBM as a cheap SMS replacement, they hardly even mention email and you never hear about data compression. The reason for that is because in those countries, you can actually get BBM only plans.

[Rjinswand]

and also, you wouldn't want to alienate your goldmine of customers in nigeria, indonesia, malaysia, phillipines, etc... the reason why they use BB is because of data compression, it's why the carriers push it.

Well, they continue offering OS7 devices, especially in those markets. From th OPs article:

Nach Angaben von RIM gegen�ber Areamobile wird die aktuelle Blackberry-Plattform in den kommenden Jahren noch unterst�tzt werden und es werden auch neue Ger�te mit Blackberry 7 herauskommen - allerdings nicht in Deutschland.

Roughly translated: "RIM told Areamobile that the current BlackBerry platform will be supported in the coming years and that new BlackBerry 7 devices will be introduced, too - but not in Germany."

[timmy t]

Roo, the point is, they are losing money on the less expensive handsets they sell from the point of how much it costs to manufacture the handsets and get them to their customers but they may make $150 in three years in after sales fees for 75% of these customers.
This is why Amazon is selling their tablet at a losss - so they can get the product into the hands of consumers and generate sales of their other products.
This is just a temporary step in order to stave off even higher losses while we wait for the introduction of their next generation of phones.

[machus]

Not exactly. I'm not sure if I would call RIM's sales to emerging markets a "goldmine." Last quarter they sold over 7 million units and lost money. In 2008 they sold about the same in a quarter and made money. What's the difference? In 2008 they primarily sold high end devices to established markets. That's why BB10 is so important for RIM, it might allow them to actually make money selling smartphones. Also, the reason BB is popular in emerging markets is not because of data compression. It's because of BBM. All the marketing in those countries is pointed at BBM as a cheap SMS replacement, they hardly even mention email and you never hear about data compression. The reason for that is because in those countries, you can actually get BBM only plans.

That's part of the reason, expenses at that point were adequate for that level of sales. Current expenses are sustainable at the higher sales levels achieved after that. That's why the CORE program is important to right size expenses for lower sales and probably margin levels.

[Roo Zilla]

Roo, the point is, they are losing money on the less expensive handsets they sell from the point of how much it costs to manufacture the handsets and get them to their customers but they may make $150 in three years in after sales fees for 75% of these customers.
This is why Amazon is selling their tablet at a losss - so they can get the product into the hands of consumers and generate sales of their other products.
This is just a temporary step in order to stave off even higher losses while we wait for the introduction of their next generation of phones.

And how do they exactly make this $150? Please don't say it's from the $5 per month they get from carriers, because in emerging markets, they don't get that. Look at Vodaphone BBM plans in India, they cost like 7 Rupees or $0.095 a day, payable by the day. Do you really think Vodaphone is going to pay RIM $5 for each of those customers? Hate to break it to you, but in countries like India and Indonesia, these are the types of plans that most people use with their Blackberries. There's a reason they're called emerging markets and only the cheaper models along with cheaper plans sell in those places, it's because people spend less money.

So, if the $150 isn't from the carriers collecting $5 from BIS/BES, then where is it from? From selling apps? Since App World gets only 30% of gross revenue, they would actually have to sell like $460 in apps to those emerging market customers. I live in the USA with an iPhone, and I haven't spent $460 in apps in the past 3 years. I don't think average customers in emerging markets are going to be spending more than me on apps.

I really don't see another source of after sales revenue for RIM besides those. I guess it's possible they might make some money off of sales of accessories like chargers and stuff, but again, I doubt it will add to $150 over 3 years in those markets, especially since it's the retail sellers who make the bulk of those profits. Even if you combine all three, I still don't think an average customer in emerging markets will hand over $150 in revenue per customer to RIM over 3 years.

RIM is selling in those markets for one reason. They are subsidizing growth in the hopes that sometime soon, the economies of those countries will grow sufficiently to allow them to sell higher end goods, and they will be able to retain enough customer loyalty to prevent them from fleeing to other company's smartphones. it's not a bad plan. I see the same thing in China. Last week I was in Hefei, the capital of Anhui Province, where there is a brand new huge Louis Vuitton store. It's empty, and I bet they go through days, perhaps weeks, without selling a single item, but LVMH spent serious bucks building it, as they did in every other major city in China. Eventually, and very soon, income will catch up, and LVMH will make a killing in China as people see the stores and covet the goods.

Addendum: As for the Amazon comparison, it doesn't fly. Amazon doesn't sell their devices in emerging markets.

[Caulibeam]

This is interesting news, would be good when travelling, no more need to look for bis specific data sims

Sent from my BlackBerry 9790 using Tapatalk

[Jeovex]

And how do they exactly make this $150? Please don't say it's from the $5 per month they get from carriers, because in emerging markets, they don't get that. Look at Vodaphone BBM plans in India, they cost like 7 Rupees or $0.095 a day, payable by the day. Do you really think Vodaphone is going to pay RIM $5 for each of those customers? Hate to break it to you, but in countries like India and Indonesia, these are the types of plans that most people use with their Blackberries. There's a reason they're called emerging markets and only the cheaper models along with cheaper plans sell in those places, it's because people spend less money.

So, if the $150 isn't from the carriers collecting $5 from BIS/BES, then where is it from? From selling apps? Since App World gets only 30% of gross revenue, they would actually have to sell like $460 in apps to those emerging market customers. I live in the USA with an iPhone, and I haven't spent $460 in apps in the past 3 years. I don't think average customers in emerging markets are going to be spending more than me on apps.

I really don't see another source of after sales revenue for RIM besides those. I guess it's possible they might make some money off of sales of accessories like chargers and stuff, but again, I doubt it will add to $150 over 3 years in those markets, especially since it's the retail sellers who make the bulk of those profits. Even if you combine all three, I still don't think an average customer in emerging markets will hand over $150 in revenue per customer to RIM over 3 years.

RIM is selling in those markets for one reason. They are subsidizing growth in the hopes that sometime soon, the economies of those countries will grow sufficiently to allow them to sell higher end goods, and they will be able to retain enough customer loyalty to prevent them from fleeing to other company's smartphones. it's not a bad plan. I see the same thing in China. Last week I was in Hefei, the capital of Anhui Province, where there is a brand new huge Louis Vuitton store. It's empty, and I bet they go through days, perhaps weeks, without selling a single item, but LVMH spent serious bucks building it, as they did in every other major city in China. Eventually, and very soon, income will catch up, and LVMH will make a killing in China as people see the stores and covet the goods.

Addendum: As for the Amazon comparison, it doesn't fly. Amazon doesn't sell their devices in emerging markets.

I agree on the way you describe RIM's strategy but I'm not so sure about Luis Vuiton going to make a killing. Isn't a vast percentage of "fake" everythings made in China???!?!?!
so why woukd they spend a crap load more for slmeyung they can get down the street for dirt cheap, if the brabd is what s important about it. same in NA, I'm sure every time you soo a lui vuiton bag it isn't a "real" one, not everyone here buys something extremely over valued... apple products anyone

[Roo Zilla]

I agree on the way you describe RIM's strategy but I'm not so sure about Luis Vuiton going to make a killing. Isn't a vast percentage of "fake" everythings made in China???!?!?!
so why woukd they spend a crap load more for slmeyung they can get down the street for dirt cheap, if the brabd is what s important about it. same in NA, I'm sure every time you soo a lui vuiton bag it isn't a "real" one, not everyone here buys something extremely over valued... apple products anyone

There is currently an "upper" class in China. People with serious disposable income, and it's growing. You would be amazed at the number of high end automobiles running around in this country. As for the fake Louis..... suffice it to say, Chinese people don't buy them. It's only the tourists and expats who buy them. Also, there's a lot less of it now than ever before, since the criminal punishment for making them has gotten really serious. It was in the news that a guy last month got a life sentence for making fake Hermes stuff in Guangzhou.

EDIT: The reason I say LVMH is going to make a killing is that nouveau riche tends to go with conspicuous consumption, and China is full of nouveau riche. Buying expensive cars and luxury goods is in line with that kind of behavior. Back in the Nokia heyday, anybody who had a few bucks in China carried around the latest Nokia, even buying multiple phones a year. Now, it's iPhones. RIM's hope is that as the nouveau riche class in places like India, Indonesia, Nigeria, etc., grow, they'll buy Blackberries.

[Jeovex]

There is currently an "upper" class in China. People with serious disposable income, and it's growing. As for the fake Louis..... suffice it to say, Chinese people don't buy them. It's only the tourists and expats who buy them. Also, there's a lot less of it now than ever before, since the criminal punishment for making them has gotten really serious. It was in the news that a guy last month got a life sentence for making fake Hermes stuff in Guangzhou.

agreed but all I'm saying is that in all honesty, if the upper class really wanted their luis vuiton...they would get it, it doesn't have to be in their region. and maybe the common chinese people wouldn't buy them and even if the country cracks down on forging, the end result is the same, the target market is already getting what they want and be honest there is no way in a country of over 1billion and as vast a land as China will ever completely eliminate the forging in their country

[bluetroll]

but if data compression is one of their strengths... why give it up?

[ADGrant]

BIS is one of the things that make Blackberry more unique.

But not in a good way (for me at least). BIS was why I dumped my personal BB and replaced it with an iPhone. I prefer EAS.

[Roo Zilla]

agreed but all I'm saying is that in all honesty, if the upper class really wanted their luis vuiton...they would get it, it doesn't have to be in their region. and maybe the common chinese people wouldn't buy them and even if the country cracks down on forging, the end result is the same, the target market is already getting what they want and be honest there is no way in a country of over 1billion and as vast a land as China will ever completely eliminate the forging in their country

Like I said, the upper class is growing rapidly. People who were commoners 10 years ago are now multimillionaires. Typical apartment in a first tier city in a nice neighborhood will cost about $500,000.00 for something about 1000 square feet (100 square meters). Somebody is buying them up, since most new developments are sold out before they're finished. Even with new laws allowing only 1 residence per person, they're selling out. Before, it wasn't as easy to get imported luxury goods in China. 20 years ago, it was impossible, 10 years ago, it could be had with difficulty. In those days, there wasn't much demand, since there weren't many rich people. Now it's easy to get, if you have the money. In another 10 years, what's now the middle class can probably afford luxury goods, and that's what companies like LVMH is banking on. RIM is banking on the same thing happening in countries like Nigeria, India, and Indonesia.