[conite]

This again goes back to my possible theory that the BlackBerry branding AND tax may have been a dead weight on the KEY phones, preventing them from achieving moderate success (even though maybe if it was a smaller company they would have kept going but the results weren't sufficient for TCL specifically)

That simply doesn't jive when the KEY² LE was available for $399.

[the_boon]

That simply doesn't jive when the KEY² LE was available for $399.

That was the 32GB version but I get what you're saying.

Either way, people said the $650 KEY2 should have been $450-$500, and the $400 LE should have been $300.
I don't know if they would have sold more units had each phone cost $100 - $150 less than it did.

For the die hards, no difference.

For the keyboard haters, no difference.

For the hesitant ones, it's likely sales would have somewhat increased

If you remove the BB tax and toxicity and throw out a PKB device similar to the LE and price it at $300, who knows what kind of sales it could get.
And maybe even if it sells the volume that the LE did, if that kind of volume works for them then good. Obviously it wasn't the case for BBMo and/or BB ltd.

Obviously the OEM that would produce it, the kind of global availability and carrier and/or retailer support would make for varying results.
At least they wouldn't start in the negative with a toxic brand name.

[the_boon]

I think the biggest obstacle is that the current OS and app developers don't provide any incentive to use a PKB. In fact they tend towards the opposite!

Can't argue with that.

App developers want people to consume media, not to type and do work on their device. It's obvious when you look at what kind of hardware is trending:
Giant, heavy, unwieldly, unergonomic, curved glass sandwiches with no bezels.

The possible extinction of the PKB is bad enough, but even the touchscreen phones themselves are more homogenous than ever and have unpractical designs.

[conite]

That was the 32GB version but I get what you're saying.

Either way, people said the $650 KEY2 should have been $450-$500, and the $400 LE should have been $300.
I don't know if they would have sold more units had each phone cost $100 - $150 less than it did.

For the die hards, no difference.

For the keyboard haters, no difference.

For the hesitant ones, it's likely sales would have somewhat increased

If you remove the BB tax and toxicity and throw out a PKB device similar to the LE and price it at $300, who knows what kind of sales it could get.
And maybe even if it sells the volume that the LE did, if that kind of volume works for them then good. Obviously it wasn't the case for BBMo and/or BB ltd.

Obviously the OEM that would produce it, the kind of global availability and carrier and/or retailer support would make for varying results.
At least they wouldn't start in the negative with a toxic brand name.

$100 doesn't turn a massive failure into a victory. It just doesn't.

[dmlis]

The possible extinction of the PKB is bad enough, but even the touchscreen phones themselves are more homogenous than ever and have unpractical designs

Unpractical designs...

Many eons ago there were strange machines called portable (mobile) cassette recorders. They started small and grew in size and quality until they turned into real monsters (once called Boomboxes) as Sharp 777 - my dream in the early 1980s. Large, heavy, full of any feature you could dream of. Gigantic 6.5" displays woofers, enormous processing music power, huge battery...no, 10 batteries! The peak of evolution. Sold in many millions per year. Boomboxes were still "portable" de-jure but you had to be strong enough to carry the one around.
And there was that little unimpressive box called Walk-man. Poor in apps features and in sound quality (at the beginning). Based on old technology. Missing one of the key functions - the recording. Walkman vs Boombox The Great and Mighty was like... a dumb phone compared to Galaxy 20?
The rest is history.

I wonder what kind of new mobile device will put an end to the domination of "unpractical designs". True portability turned Walkman into a cult device. Is there a "new"(still undiscovered?) feature that could make buyers of modern "boomboxes" change their minds?

[Troy Tiscareno]

Perhaps - but the PKB has been proven NOT to be that feature. Neither was BB10, or "security" as a primary feature.

[nevilleadaniels]

Unpractical designs...

Many eons ago there were strange machines called portable (mobile) cassette recorders. They started small and grew in size and quality until they turned into real monsters (once called Boomboxes) as Sharp 777 - my dream in the early 1980s. Large, heavy, full of any feature you could dream of. Gigantic 6.5" displays woofers, enormous processing music power, huge battery...no, 10 batteries! The peak of evolution. Sold in many millions per year. Boomboxes were still "portable" de-jure but you had to be strong enough to carry the one around.
And there was that little unimpressive box called Walk-man. Poor in apps features and in sound quality (at the beginning). Based on old technology. Missing one of the key functions - the recording. Walkman vs Boombox The Great and Mighty was like... a dumb phone compared to Galaxy 20?
The rest is history.

I wonder what kind of new mobile device will put an end to the domination of "unpractical designs". True portability turned Walkman into a cult device. Is there a "new"(still undiscovered?) feature that could make buyers of modern "boomboxes" change their minds?

Radio cassette recorders are still available to buy brand new today and still manufactured

[dmlis]

Perhaps - but the PKB has been proven NOT to be that feature. Neither was BB10, or "security" as a primary feature.

Agree. And so I wonder...

I found it interesting that Walkman was nothing new technologically (except the lighter headphones), its earliest predecessor TC-50 went into space 11 years earlier. TC-50 was about the same size (11 years before!) and more advanced, with remote control, recording, loudspeaker, internal and external microphones (no stereo though). And there was immediate predecessor Pressman. Sony engineers reworked the Pressman reducing the size, adding stereo playback but deleting the recording function completely. It was a real "downgrading" of excellent professional equipment. It was against the trend and prevailing "common sense" - a tape recorder was supposed to record by definition, after all.

History never repeats itself exactly. But still, what it would be today? The resurrection of the device abandoned 11 years ago as...Palm handheld? Or some little known industrial (or military) equipment reworked as it happened to Pressman? This new "revolution" should be cost-effective, of course. Walkman was launched at $150 while Pressman was $1,000 and an average portable stereo recorder around $400, probably.

The future is bright and exciting, for sure.

[Troy Tiscareno]

The Walkman revelation was that most people had no need to RECORD with a small, portable unit (and such a unit already existed for those how did), but that there was (at the time) a HUGE market of people who wanted to listen to music on-the-go, and the pre-recorded cassette market was growing due to car stereos, so it was the right product at the right time. And, while it was certainly improved, the original Walkman had quite good sound. I did comparisons between the original Walkman and 6 competing devices in 82 or 83 and there was little comparison - the Sony was far better in sound quality.

Later I had a WM-20, which was the "smaller than a cassette case" Walkman that had to be pulled apart a bit to insert a cassette, and ran off of a single AA battery (though not for long). But 2 years later, I replaced it with a D-10 Discman, which blew people's minds at the time.

[Troy Tiscareno]

The Walkman revelation was that most people had no need to RECORD with a small, portable unit (and such a unit already existed for those how did), but that there was (at the time) a HUGE market of people who wanted to listen to music on-the-go, and the pre-recorded cassette market was growing due to car stereos, so it was the right product at the right time. And, while it was certainly improved, the original Walkman had quite good sound. I did comparisons between the original Walkman and 6 competing devices in 82 or 83 and there was little comparison - the Sony was far better in sound quality.



Later I had a WM-20, which was the "smaller than a cassette case" Walkman that had to be pulled apart a bit to insert a cassette, and ran off of a single AA battery (though not for long). But 2 years later, I replaced it with a D-10 Discman, which blew people's minds at the time.

[idssteve]

Extrapolating "today" into "tomorrow" rarely succeeds indefinitely. I may be too fatigued for unbiased opinion, atp. SOoo, fwiw... After a mostly sleepless week at in-home office, of assisting clients, coworkers, colleagues, etc in collaborative effort to optimize &/or reconfigure various production capacity, I MUST opine that "the world" HAS changed! Humanity is, or will be, re-evaluating MANY things. Looks like I might grab a few hrs sleep. Will update when reasonably possible. As permitted, at least.

My third month of "retirement"? Some "retirement". Lol.

[Onthelinit1979]

I think it is rather the other way around. People are the boring factor when it comes to possessing something like a smartphone or following a brand like apple.

People have never been more stupid these days... Trends, movies, music, clothing... You name it. They go beserk as if it was the only thing in life that gives them any purpose.

People are bored, people are empty inside. There is always that guy who wants to be a hipster like his cool office co workers, and there will always be that nuckle head who wants the latest iphone, just because someone else he envies has it...

That's just it. True individualism is dead, now it's just this "be one of us" mentality....

And you get all of this from people's perceived reason for buying their phone? I think you should consider that for the vast majority of ppl it's just a phone. Nothing more.

Sent from a Blackberry Passport

[Onthelinit1979]

... but the results weren't sufficient for TCL specifically)

I think you mean weren't sufficient for BB...It was BB that didn't allow TCL to renew the contract. TCL wanted to continue.

Sent from a Blackberry Passport

[conite]

I think you mean weren't sufficient for BB...It was BB that didn't allow TCL to renew the contract. TCL wanted to continue.

Sent from a Blackberry Passport

TCL was the party that wasn't living up to its obligations - that's all we actually know.

[Dunt Dunt Dunt]

TCL was the party that wasn't living up to its obligations - that's all we actually know.

I question what BlackBerry really brought to the table.... the idea was Enterprise needed BlackBerry's Android Secure. But it didn't. Beyond that, it was the PKB and some measure of updates. If TCL taught there is a market there, I'm sure they could switch to Google's Android One program and that would make most the Update and even Security concerns go away. A PALM key-like device (different enough to get around BlackBerry IP) could be made and sold... with a nice premium for TCL and still very functional hardware for $500.

I bet they'd do it if they'd get KEYone level sales, but KEY2 level sale.... ?

Maybe wait two more years... and BB10 PKBs, PRIV, KEYone and KEY2s will be old enough that a good percentage of those PKB users will be ready to upgrade... all at once.

[andyk350]

Maybe wait two more years... and BB10 PKBs, PRIV, KEYone and KEY2s will be old enough that a good percentage of those PKB users will be ready to upgrade... all at once.

I don't think many will wait another two years. My backstory: I've been a BlackBerry diehard since I got the Bold 9000. I went through the torch 9800 and 9810 and then transitioned to BB10 on the Z10 and then the passport. Then on to the Priv, KeyOne, and Key2. Each device was better than the previous and I was happy enough with them that I converted my mom, brother, and boss to BB.

I was willing to hold out a little longer for a Key3, but after it became obvious that wasn't going to happen I decided to research a replacement.

The K1 and especially the K2 were mostly fast enough for me, but not quite and the camera was not nearly good enough for me to go any longer with the K2.

I trade stocks and the K2 doesn't have enough memory to keep a charting app and a trading app open for long and there have been times when the trading app locks up and I lose money because I can't exit a trade quick enough.

Like most cameras the K1&2 do fine in good lighting and of still objects, but if the lighting is not good or you're taking pictures of something in motion the camera is not good compared to other modern phones. You can adjust the shutter speed to help with motion, but then the lighting suffers. My wife gets a new Galaxy every other year and we always use her phone when taking pictures of our daughter because the camera is so much better.

The bottom line is that most consumers are not going to put up with a poor camera or a slower processor or lack of memory in hopes that another BB will one day be released. There will be exceptions of course. My boss still uses his priv, but all he uses it for is texting, email, slack, and very little else.

Some of you may wonder what I decided to switch to since, like many of you, I have never had a smartphone that isn't a BB. I decided on the OnePlus 8 Pro. It's pricey, but I wanted a fast phone with a good camera. There are some slightly better cameras out there, but this one is good for me. It is far and away better than the K2 camera and the device is blazing fast.

I paid for the Hub+ suite and find it ridiculous that people on here are using a workaround to steal the software. It is only $1/month and if nobody pays for the app there is no chance it will be developed further. The Hub+ works just fine on here and with the Oxygen Os it's not far from the BB experience. I miss keyboard shortcuts, but there are gestures similar to the ones from BB10 and you can switch apps that are open pretty quickly. The display on this phone is amazing too, but that wasn't real important to me as I don't watch TV or movies on my phone.

I tried putting the BB virtual keyboard on here, but it says it's not compatible with my device. The old Z10 keyboard was better than this one in some ways with the auto correct better on the OnePlus.

[EricArden]

the keyone sold better than the key2 simply because the camera was of flagship quality. It was released with the same camera as the Pixel (best camera of the time period). The camera is the most important spec on any phone. The processor second. The screen 3rd.

I'd be willing to argue that pkb fans by in large don't care for the screen all that much since we're willing to sacrifice some screen size for some buttons.

The key2 sold well enough to were TCL still wanted to continue making BlackBerry phones. They made a k3 prototype (BBJ100). They even went on record saying they wanted to pursue the brand, just not year after year. My hope is BlackBerry sold the rights to the keyboard to TCL and we'll get a branded key3 at some point.

To get BlackBerry out of the picture so we can get a legit flagship phone for a reasonable price without so much security we can't ever take updates into our own hands would be a dream.

[howarmat]

The camera likely played no role at all. Many that bought the keyone arent going to upgrade 1 year later if satisfied and then some were just not happy with build quality of the keyone and obviously were not going to be “suckered” into another device from TCL. Camera didnt make hardly a difference and was more of software issues IMO then hardware.

[andyk350]

The K1 camera software was nowhere near as good as the Pixel software, but at the time it made decent pictures for a phone. During the next couple years though the K series fell way behind other phones and not just flagships. I think moving forward the lack of a good camera on the K series will induce people not to wait for some sort of miracle that BlackBerry branded phones are made again.

If anything it'll be a company like Unihertz that buys the keyboard license and they will make a low end spec device with a great keyboard.

[Tsepz_GP]

That's because Apple products have fairly small batteries that are only usable because Apple keeps incredibly tight control on power usage - and the vibration motor uses a lot of power. If it was running every time there was a key-press, you might get a 30% drop in daily usable phone time with lots of typing, and people would get upset. By not making that an option, they won't be giving another reason to question their battery choices.

I have a lot of doubt around the statement regarding the Taptic Engine, a lot of apps/games use it in tap as well as scrolling instances that have the motor vibrating probably as much as it would when typing but those apps don’t seem to eat much battery unless it’s a HD game that has a heavy graphics load.

The Taptic Engine can also run in a variety of intensity, both in the iPhone and Apple Watch I will know exactly what it’s reminding me of just because of how it “nudges” or “taps” or “vibrates” depending on what’s going on.

I just think Apple are being typical Apple on not allowing haptic feedback on their keyboard, because they could easily make it run light and “tappy” for typing. The funny thing about this is that the Taptic engine is the perfect motor for haptic feedback as it has an incredible range of intensity and they could literally assign different intensity to different keys and areas of the keyboard that are noticeable.