Apple misses sales targets - some thoughts on what this means for RIM

Originally Posted by Rickroller

Who's "slamming"? I see you're from WP Central, so I'd assume if you seen someone intentionally spreading misinformation about a Windows phone, i'm sure you'd pipe in to correct them..

If someone is criticizing Windows Phone, I'd actually consider their criticism. Microsoft has made lots of mistakes, as have RIM, Apple, Google, Samsung and all the others.

The problem with discussing Apple products is that any criticism of Apple at all is reacted to with the extreme rage of the true believer (and frankly, that's getting to be a problem at WPC as well -- my discussion of the likely sales of Windows Phone handsets had half of my posts deleted because the estimates weren't great and "created a negative vibe.")

And frankly, if I spent time correcting all the misinformation about Windows, Windows Phone, Android, BlackBerry, webOS, etc. on the Apple forums, I'd never have time to sleep or work. Most Apple forums are choked to death with people who insist that Macs never crash, Windows Phones and PCs have the blue screen of death several times an hour, every Microsoft product is choked with viruses, Windows PCs cannot connect to digital cameras (which was actually asserted in an Apple ad), Windows PCs cannot print in color (which was actually asserted in an Apple ad), Windows PCs cannot run software from a CD or DVD without flipping DIP switches in the computer (which was actually asserted in an Apple ad), BlackBerry phones cannot run apps or browse the web, Android phones have less than an hour of battery life, etc.

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

If someone is criticizing Windows Phone, I'd actually consider their criticism. Microsoft has made lots of mistakes, as have RIM, Apple, Google, Samsung and all the others.

I never said criticism..I said misinformation. Two very different things. Around here, RIM criticism is seen as trolling, as RIM doesn't make any mistakes, and their products are flawless, and the reason for decline in marketshare over the last many years is simply due to a) Either a world wide conspiracy to bring them down (no joke), or b) Brainwashing or "sheep" mentality amongst people (again, no joke). Criticism is healthy, and necessary imo. However, misinformation doesn't serve anyone any good, especially for those unfamiliar with said technology.

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

I never understand people from other ecosystems who head to a particular board to "school the fanboys on their excitement."

I cannot imagine going to the Android or iOS boards and slamming the latest JellyBean or iOS device to "keep them honest." That's just boring.

Despite time and effort to gently educate some of you that many people here actually DO have multiple devices, it still surprisingly fails to sink in :rolleyes:

I have multiple devices as well. That is very different than saying "how dare you criticize my favorite company, Prune, whose products are unquestionably superior and who has never made a mistake in history, unlike miserable nasty old RIM," in the RIM forums.

Save that stuff for the Apple forums.

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

I have multiple devices as well. That is very different than saying "how dare you criticize my favorite company, Prune, whose products are unquestionably superior and who has never made a mistake in history, unlike miserable nasty old RIM," in the RIM forums.

Save that stuff for the Apple forums.

You lost me with this post..:confused:

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

I have multiple devices as well. That is very different than saying "how dare you criticize my favorite company, Prune, whose products are unquestionably superior and who has never made a mistake in history, unlike miserable nasty old RIM," in the RIM forums.

Save that stuff for the Apple forums.

Strange that the vast majority of the posts that your ilk respond to with the overused "Go back to iMore" line do not fall into that mold.

This strikes me as being deliberately obtuse, frankly.

I own several iOS devices, a BlackBerry, a Windows Phone, and even a GS3 (blech). Does that give me license to go to iMore and start a thread entitled "Apple's iOS6 is a dismal usability failure compared to Windows Phone 8?"

That would be a fair, accurate statement based on my experience with multiple devices (including Apple's).

Would such criticism be welcomed by Apple's fans?

(Can I ask a more obviously rhetorical question?) ;)

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

This strikes me as being deliberately obtuse, frankly.

I own several iOS devices, a BlackBerry, a Windows Phone, and even a GS3 (blech). Does that give me license to go to iMore and start a thread entitled "Apple's iOS6 is a dismal usability failure compared to Windows Phone 8?"

That would be a fair, accurate statement based on my experience with multiple devices (including Apple's).

Would such criticism be welcomed by Apple's fans?

(Can I ask a more obviously rhetorical question?) ;)

Depends...will you base your argument on facts, or random junk that you make up with no source to back it?

What you're suggesting is flame baiting and trolling. If you can't see the difference between that and a logical argument...

Sorry, but that's not my experience.

Just mentioning that Mac sales have declined 21% and Apple missed projections, or that I enjoy using my Windows Phone, sends most iMore posters into a rage and I'm accused of being a paid shill for Microsoft (or RIM or Google).

Criticism of Apple is completely unwelcome in Apple-land. The fact that you regard a valid criticism of Apple as "trolling and flame-baiting" only underscores that.

I actually wonder if the complete uniformity demanded in Apple-land is what sends Apple folks to other forums to seek some variant thinking. There's likely a tug-of-war between the need for some unique thoughts (e.g. someone who doesn't buy into the rhetoric that everything Apple does is perfect and good) and the need to believe that all criticism of Apple is evil.

It's getting bad on the Microsoft side, too. Criticism of the usability of XBox Music, the Microsoft WP8 roll-out, or ESPECIALLY the heavy, thick Lumia 920 will land you branded as an evil Google or Apple agent.

Frankly, the RIM fanbase strikes me as extremely reasonable in comparison.

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

Frankly, the RIM fanbase strikes me as extremely reasonable in comparison.

You should have been here 6-8 months ago when all the conspiracy and "paid shill" threads and comments were circulating..

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

Frankly, the RIM fanbase strikes me as extremely reasonable in comparison.

Honestly, I think you're right. Here though there are a few extremists .... who give all the others a bad name. There's not many of them. Probably 5 or 6. Given the number of RIM fans on this site though, I can say most 99.9% are very very reasonable and considered.

I'm surprised Apple didn't sue those Crackberry posters for "stealing their 'paid shill accusation intellectual property.'" :D

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

Sorry, but that's not my experience.

Just mentioning that Mac sales have declined 21% and Apple missed projections, or that I enjoy using my Windows Phone, sends most iMore posters into a rage and I'm accused of being a paid shill for Microsoft (or RIM or Google).

Criticism of Apple is completely unwelcome in Apple-land. The fact that you regard a valid criticism of Apple as "trolling and flame-baiting" only underscores that.

I actually wonder if the complete uniformity demanded in Apple-land is what sends Apple folks to other forums to seek some variant thinking. There's likely a tug-of-war between the need for some unique thoughts (e.g. someone who doesn't buy into the rhetoric that everything Apple does is perfect and good) and the need to believe that all criticism of Apple is evil.

It's getting bad on the Microsoft side, too. Criticism of the usability of XBox Music, the Microsoft WP8 roll-out, or ESPECIALLY the heavy, thick Lumia 920 will land you branded as an evil Google or Apple agent.

Frankly, the RIM fanbase strikes me as extremely reasonable in comparison.

Completely missed the point, again. If I came on here and said "BB10 is a dismal failure" that is trolling, as per your original statement.

Saying that "BB10 is not the only phone OS that multitasks" would not be trolling. It's not exactly a fine line, just use some common sense. Also expect to be called out if you make up BS, regardless of what forum you're on.

Originally Posted by fallax

I really disagree. My iMac when i first bought it was more advanced and had more handy features then other desktops..

I didn't buy mine because I felt it was 'more advanced'. There were other computers with better hardware for less money. I bought it because I had fewer issues with it. I was having many, many, many Windows issues at the time and it was nice not to have the pain.

But I wouldn't call it 'more advanced' at really anything except avoiding blue screens of death.

Originally Posted by mikeo007

Completely missed the point, again. If I came on here and said "BB10 is a dismal failure" that is trolling, as per your original statement.

Except that wasn't actually my original statement. My original statement is "Compared to Windows Phone 8, iOS6 is a dismal usability failure." That's a specific, albeit strong, statement, not a general declaration.

Saying that "BB10 is not the only phone OS that multitasks" would not be trolling.

Actually, that *would* be trolling, since it's factually inaccurate. Saying "BB10 doesn't multitask as well as iOS" would not be trolling, since it's an opinion (presumably backed by an argument).

Also expect to be called out if you make up BS, regardless of what forum you're on.

Sure. The problem being that most Apple people believe that ANY criticism of Apple is, by default, BS, because Apple is Perfect and Nobody Else Gets It.

The idea that Windows doesn't crash every five minutes, or that millions of people prefer BlackBerry smartphones for their daily work to iOS, or that many people like a larger screen with a pen, or that many people find OS X to be less usable than Windows 8, simply cannot be discussed in Appleland. It's quite impossible.

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

Criticism of Apple is completely unwelcome in Apple-land.

To a point. If you come out and say, "Apple is overpriced crap" or "the new iPhone is over-rated" or "everything Mac sucks", you'll get the crazy Apple fans. They'll toss down their Steve Jobs action dolls and march out with their dukes up ready for a fight. And they should. it's sweeping generalizations.

But you'll hear crickets chirp if you identify a legitimate issue. Trust me on this - as a long time Mac user and also an iOS user who has been a BlackBerry fan as well, when you start showing them error screens and stuff on Apple products, they get quite silent. At best, they might say, "well ... er ... um ... I never have that".

No product is perfect. they all have strengths and weaknesses. My PlayBook browser is too slow and crashes. My old 9900 froze a lot. My iPod touch is too slow. My Apple TV sucks as at home sharing. My iPhone drops calls and fails routinely when connecting to my car or stereo.

High tech. Throw the fanboyism out.

Originally Posted by RubberChicken76

High tech. Throw the fanboyism out.

I'd love to, but that's quite impossible.

And let's face it -- Bing (or Google, if you like being spied on) any article critical of Apple in the last 15 years. Check out the comment fields. Thousands and thousands of "how dare you criticize Apple" posts abound.

It got so bad in the early 2000s that article authors who make money per impression would deliberately write articles about Apple's problems just to get the tens of thousands of angry Apple fans saying "how dare you suggest that a 400 MHz G4 isn't faster than an 850 MHz Pentium III?!?"

That simply doesn't happen with other brands like Samsung, RIM, or Microsoft. It *sorta* happens with Nokia, and is starting to happen with Google to an increasing degree.

But Apple folks complaining about fanboyism is like Nicki Minaj complaining about women in rap who wear outrageously colored wigs.

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

Actually, that *would* be trolling, since it's factually inaccurate. Saying "BB10 doesn't multitask as well as iOS" would not be trolling, since it's an opinion (presumably backed by an argument).

.

There is nothing inaccurate about my statement, it is 100% factual.

No company or their products are perfect. Never have been, never will be. Believing that is what causes the smartphone "holy wars" that seem to be becoming more and more common.

Originally Posted by mikeo007

No company or their products are perfect. Never have been, never will be. Believing that is what causes the smartphone "holy wars" that seem to be becoming more and more common.

I agree with you -- but considering that the most viewed Apple site on the web right now is called "Cult of Mac," it's not hard to figure out where that whole thing began.

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

I agree with you -- but considering that the most viewed Apple site on the web right now is called "Cult of Mac," it's not hard to figure out where that whole thing began.

Same could be said for Crack-Berry.

I've NEVER met a BlackBerry person who says "oh, you use a <insert non BlackBerry phone here>" with a sniff and then says "BlackBerry is SO much better."

I don't have a week that goes by where I don't meet an Apple person who says "oh, you use a PC/<insert non Apple phone here>" with a sniff and then says "you really should switch."

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

I've NEVER met a BlackBerry person who says "oh, you use a <insert non BlackBerry phone here>" with a sniff and then says "BlackBerry is SO much better."

To be fair, even the most hardened RIM fanboi couldn't say that in the past with a straight face. Next week, I'm guessing there will be a few. :)

Even then, I doubt they'll be as obnoxious.

We ALL know a bunch of Apple people who insist that the reason our devices had a problem was because they aren't Apple devices.

"Oh, your PC crashed while rendering that animation? Should have gotten a Mac, they NEVER crash."

I'm sure some of us, like myself perhaps, relish those moments when the Apple device has a problem, so we can demonstrate how our non-Apple devices don't have that problem too.

"Oh, your Mac got that Java virus? But I thought 'Macs don't get viruses, they're 100% immune.' Good thing we Windows users are protected by Microsoft Defender, free of charge, so we don't get them." ;)

Originally Posted by brmiller1976

Even then, I doubt they'll be as obnoxious.

We ALL know a bunch of Apple people who insist that the reason our devices had a problem was because they aren't Apple devices.

"Oh, your PC crashed while rendering that animation? Should have gotten a Mac, they NEVER crash."

I'm sure some of us, like myself perhaps, relish those moments when the Apple device has a problem, so we can demonstrate how our non-Apple devices don't have that problem too.

"Oh, your Mac got that Java virus? But I thought 'Macs don't get viruses, they're 100% immune.' Good thing we Windows users are protected by Microsoft Defender, free of charge, so we don't get them." ;)

Guess we hang out with different people. Spend some more time around here. You'll come to realize that the radicals are exactly the same as their counterparts in the other camps.

There are radicals, and then there are RADICALS.