10-21-16 05:50 PM
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  1. Bbnivende's Avatar
    I do not miss BB10 or BBOS at all. I do miss the 9900/ Classic form factor though. I hope that they can licence that form factor.
    toneytone and anon(9721108) like this.
    09-29-16 04:15 PM
  2. KAM1138's Avatar
    The benefit of moving to Android was the side effect of building up a nice Android software portfolio that can now be turned into an income stream through subscriptions and licencing.

    Going forward they can offer various rungs of Android hardening, and the app suite.

    The number of Android device sales was completely unrelated to whether or not BB10 devices would have sold more or less. BB10 was over already. Period.

    I'm more optimistic today than I was last week about seeing BlackBerry software on future Android devices.
    Well, I hope that works, but have zero reason to expect that will work. Why? Android users feel no need, which is proven by the fact they happily abandoned BlackBerry and didn't look back.

    How would people's minds be changed? Hmmm, maybe a concerted marketing effort, which isn't likely. Consumer products of any kind are set to follow the demise of BB10 and other Blackberry hardware and for the similar reasons.

    Same mindset last year with all the android optimism. Next year we will see how much of your software optimism survives.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    09-29-16 06:11 PM
  3. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    Hello Everyone,

    With the decision of BlackBerry to pursue Android Devices and halt any development of BB10, various people in these forums and elsewhere proclaimed this was the ONLY path. BB10 was stated to be DOA (before release even), and that it had no future.

    Well, here we are about a year later, and my question is...did taking the Android Path really help? Now, I'm actually LOOKING for some hard information (which seems a bit elusive).

    1) What happened to device sales and Market share for Blackberry labeled phones?
    2) Did Android Devices outsell BB10 Devices (obviously new phones might have a chance to outsell older models)

    My view has been that it probably wouldn't matter what device they released of what form, if they didn't do the work to fix their brand image. I don't see that they have done that, so my general view is that they've stayed the course, and no surprise--there isn't much improvement.

    On the other hand, why would one expect much improvement in an area that they are clearly not that interested in ("BlackBerry is a Software company.").

    I guess the bottom line--how things APPEAR, is that choosing to follow this Android Path, and dumping BB10, really had almost no effect in regards to hardware. It didn't result in a turn around, and any improvement (or decline) seems to be a blip--meaning their sales continue to be quite small.

    Now, my view is that there is a possibility that entering the Android arena MIGHT have some benefits moving forward if they are able to get their Hub+ (or other software) to take off, but again...that would require a significant marketing effort. BBM seems to be treated as a joke these days--and they've abandoned things like Blackberry Link, so I'm not sure how serious they are in regard to ANY consumer software.

    But what are the ACTUAL numbers. HAS Android been a winner in regards to Hardware? I'll share just my little bit. I actually DID buy a DTEK50--I wanted to see if they could bring a BlackBerry experience to Android, so I guess they sold ME, but I'm less than impressed. It is a decent phone, and I'm not sorry I bought it, but it doesn't begin to compare to the Passport SE (or my old Z10 for that matter) in regards to what I use a mobile communications device for.

    So, I'd welcome anyone's opinion on why going to Android WAS a success (or perhaps will lead to future success). If your analysis is "well, BB10 was a failure so..." you can save your breath. BB10 is an (effectively) abandoned platform. I want to hear what the RESULTS of the choice to pursue Android are (in your opinion).

    KAM
    Going Android was a failure. There are too many well established Android brands out there. BlackBerry did things in Reverse if they wanted to go Android successfully ,it should have been done before BlackBerry 10, as a transitory phase to BlackBerry 10.

    Posted via CB10
    KAM1138 likes this.
    09-29-16 06:27 PM
  4. cbosdell's Avatar
    BlackBerry never stood a chance at being a breakout success on Android in 2015/2016. The Priv is a really good phone but it was priced too high at launch and the software wasn't 100% ready based on early reviews. I don't necessarily think staying with BB10 would have saved the hardware division but I do think it would have sold better than the Priv and Dtek50. BlackBerry alienated a lot of the base they had left switching to Android and didn't give much incentive for anyone else to switch to BlackBerry.
    KAM1138 likes this.
    09-29-16 06:51 PM
  5. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    I think it is fair to say that by 2015 things were too far gone for BB10. They made the choice to end that sooner it seems. They just ran down the clock.

    The point however is that there are fundamental problems that aren't a question of Android or BB10 and that is still not being addressed.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    09-29-16 07:09 PM
  6. app_Developer's Avatar
    Why? Blackberry essentially DOESN'T exist today despite following the advice of all the Pro-android people. We're still here--the end of Hardware, so NOT "flushing billions" (not sure where that value came from) and it made ZERO difference. So, don't you think it is at least REASONABLE to say "Hmmm, maybe our 'solution' wasn't right. MAYBE, there's something else that needs to be addressed?"
    Actually, I'd argue it made a big difference, because BB would have been in a weaker financial position if they had continued with BB10.

    First you have the issue of inventory risk. It seems very unlikely to me that you could find a partner willing to take on the inventory risk for new BB10 phones. So BBRY would almost certainly have had to take that risk on their own balance sheet. Even a production run of just 1M phones is about $200M in risk right there.

    Then you have the purchase commitments. Suppliers would not have lined up to volunteer to make components for a new BB10 phone. That would have required more purchase commitments. Chen has managed to burn down almost all of the outstanding purchase commitments he inherited. That's an important part of their improved financial picture and I don't see how that would have been possible with BB10.

    Then, third, you have the issue of the BB10 development staff themselves. All those people were laid off a year ago or longer. If those people were on the payroll today you wouldn't have the break even quarter they just had (at least on a non-GAAP basis) You also have the question of how you could convince Qualcomm to give your staff the time of day when it came to getting BB10 ported to new SoC's anyway.

    Fourth, to make any of this have any chance of success, you would have to, as you said, make significant investments in strengthening their brand in the minds of smartphone consumers (including employees/end users in enterprises). That's a lot of $$ if you are trying to make a serious play at higher end of the smartphone market.

    It's obvious Android didn't save the phone business at BB. I would argue the board didn't think that was their future anyway, hence the hiring of a career enterprise software guy from Sybase of all places. But at least Android didn't cost them very much money. Now that they are building momentum in their actual future business lines, they've got a healthy balance sheet to take them into that future. I don't think they would be as healthy if they had continued with BB10.
    JeepBB likes this.
    09-29-16 07:23 PM
  7. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    So if that's true, it seems likely they never had any intention of staying in hardware. So maybe I'm wrong, and that they are great at PR in so far as misleading their customers. Maybe this was just an ongoing exercise as minimizing the 'going out of business' press. Just let the company fall in each successive step away from phones.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    09-29-16 07:38 PM
  8. crackbrry fan's Avatar
    Hello,

    I think it is fair to say that by 2015 things were too far gone for BB10. They made the choice to end that sooner it seems. They just ran down the clock.

    The point however is that there are fundamental problems that aren't a question of Android or BB10 and that is still not being addressed.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    It has everything to do with that. They (BlackBerry) waited too long to release BlackBerry 10 and when they did they released an unrefined product with 10.1 had they either done a refreshed BBOS in the interim OR gone Android in the interim they would have kept their user base happy and interested. The bet the farm on an incomplete system and then panicked when things backfired.
    That compounded by Thor Heinzs panicked sale attempt further damaged the brand.
    BlackBerry hired Chen, who is not a hardware man further sealing the fate of their hardware division and I'm afraid the beginning of the end of their MDM Solutions.


    Posted via CB10
    09-29-16 07:40 PM
  9. app_Developer's Avatar

    So if that's true, it seems likely they never had any intention of staying in hardware. So maybe I'm wrong, and that they are great at PR in so far as misleading their customers.
    Actually, to be fair, they've been talking about this transition to software strategy pretty much every single earnings call since Chen started.

    People (mostly here on CB) just wanted to believe what they wanted to believe regarding BB10 and the phone business in general.
    09-29-16 07:48 PM
  10. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    No, Blackberry has strung customers along the whole time with statements like "We never said we wouldn't produce another BB10 phone."

    Nebulous statements with no intention of following through is tantamount to lying.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    Powdah likes this.
    09-29-16 08:53 PM
  11. co4nd's Avatar
    Android was a last ditch effort. BB10 was a total market failure and going nowhere. Android was the last chance at staying in the hardware business.
    09-29-16 09:25 PM
  12. KAM1138's Avatar
    How many BB10 phones sold in the same period as Android Blackberry phones?

    At what point are blackberry androids declared a total market failure?

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    09-29-16 09:40 PM
  13. conite's Avatar
    How many BB10 phones sold in the same period as Android Blackberry phones?

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    The question is a non-sequitur. The two things have nothing to do with each other.
    Laura Knotek likes this.
    09-29-16 09:52 PM
  14. mvsalvino's Avatar
    I guess the bottom line--how things APPEAR, is that choosing to follow this Android Path, and dumping BB10, really had almost no effect in regards to hardware. It didn't result in a turn around, and any improvement (or decline) seems to be a blip--meaning their sales continue to be quite small.
    I think the bottom line is that even if the move to android had no effect on sales, it did reduce costs. So now instead of selling 100,000 units (or whatever number) and paying for 100,000 phones, an engineering team, manufacturing facilities, etc... they just payed for 100,000 phones and put them in the warehouse and that's that. No additional costs.

    With android, it might be same sales numbers, but with higher overall profit margin and lower risk.

     C L A S S I C
    09-29-16 10:00 PM
  15. sorinv's Avatar
    I think the bottom line is that even if the move to android had no effect on sales, it did reduce costs. So now instead of selling 100,000 units (or whatever number) and paying for 100,000 phones, an engineering team, manufacturing facilities, etc... they just payed for 100,000 phones and put them in the warehouse and that's that. No additional costs.

    With android, it might be same sales numbers, but with higher overall profit margin and lower risk.

     C L A S S I C
    KAM1138 is correct in his assessment.
    Android phones by BlackBerry sold in far fewer numbers than bb10 phones did, despite all the apps. They were a failure, more so than bb10 phones, and suffered from the same issues that bb10 phones did: poor launch, software bugs, overheating, overpricing, uncertainty about future support.
    Additionally, they suffered from being associated with Google and lack of privacy and security (rightfully or not) and of being a me-too product.
    There is no compelling reason for people to own an android phone by BlackBerry.

    And it is ridiculous to claim that the android apps by BlackBerry have sold more than the android phones by BlackBerry. BlackBerry has failed with the android software as badly as with android phones.
    09-29-16 10:22 PM
  16. KAM1138's Avatar
    The question is a non-sequitur. The two things have nothing to do with each other.
    I don't care what you think about the question unless you know the answer.



    Posted via CB10
    09-29-16 11:20 PM
  17. KAM1138's Avatar
    I think the bottom line is that even if the move to android had no effect on sales, it did reduce costs. So now instead of selling 100,000 units (or whatever number) and paying for 100,000 phones, an engineering team, manufacturing facilities, etc... they just payed for 100,000 phones and put them in the warehouse and that's that. No additional costs.

    With android, it might be same sales numbers, but with higher overall profit margin and lower risk.

     C L A S S I C
    Well, doing nothing saves costs. It doesn't mean it is a good plan (maybe in some cases it could be).

    However I think the goal is to make money selling phones (if we believe the talk about saving hardware), so the question remains, which sold better. Of course the question of total profit is relevant, not just units sold--as you mention.

    KAM



    Posted via CB10
    09-29-16 11:25 PM
  18. KAM1138's Avatar
    KAM1138 is correct in his assessment.
    Android phones by BlackBerry sold in far fewer numbers than bb10 phones did, despite all the apps. They were a failure, more so than bb10 phones, and suffered from the same issues that bb10 phones did: poor launch, software bugs, overheating, overpricing, uncertainty about future support.
    Additionally, they suffered from being associated with Google and lack of privacy and security (rightfully or not) and of being a me-too product.
    There is no compelling reason for people to own an android phone by BlackBerry.

    And it is ridiculous to claim that the android apps by BlackBerry have sold more than the android phones by BlackBerry. BlackBerry has failed with the android software as badly as with android phones.
    While I have my suspicions, I don't have the information on sales between the two. We know that hardware sales haven't been good, despite the shift to android.

    I'm looking for information.

    Chen CHOSE to pursue android and drop BB10 so anyone claiming that the results of that choice aren't relevant is talking nonsense. If BB10 STILL out sells Android despite the neglect, then there should be a serious question about the choices being made.


    Posted via CB10
    Last edited by KAM1138; 09-29-16 at 11:50 PM.
    togarika likes this.
    09-29-16 11:36 PM
  19. kvndoom's Avatar
    So exactly why did you start a thread as a question, then vehemently argue against any comment that doesn't agree with your opinion?

    Clearly the only answer to "Android Path--Who was Right?" is "KAM1138 was right." You're not looking for an actual answer, just confirmation bias.
    09-30-16 01:03 AM
  20. toneytone's Avatar
    The Android strategy gives BlackBerry a future in HW. Maybe not a great one, but at least they have an opportunity to work with HW companies to build Android phones using BlackBerry security and productivity apps. If they had not moved to Android, their HW group would probably ended late last year or early this year. There would be no opportunity to have other companies build phones using BB10. If for not other reason there are no drivers available for modern chip sets. Plus since BlackBerry has almost no developers working on BB10, companies are not going to produce phones that have little to no chance of getting updates. BlackBerry's HW future is not bright, but it does have a chance because of Android.
    This, and the fact that BlackBerrys main focus is on enterprise customer's I would say going android has been beneficial. As BlackBerry is able to make the necessary changes to Android over the next few major OS updates you will see that it was the best move to make.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    09-30-16 01:15 AM
  21. KAM1138's Avatar
    So exactly why did you start a thread as a question, then vehemently argue against any comment that doesn't agree with your opinion?

    Clearly the only answer to "Android Path--Who was Right?" is "KAM1138 was right." You're not looking for an actual answer, just confirmation bias.
    If you're not familiar with how discussion of differing viewpoints work, then I'm not sure I'm gonna be able to teach you. However, if someone asks a question and someone produces an answer, doesn't mean the questioner is obligated to own and accept that answer. It's just a piece of the discussion.

    But as I've said several times now--I'm looking for the information that will CONFIRM (without bias) what actually happened. What APPEARS to have happened, is that producing Android phones has not led to any turn-around in Hardware, which was the stated goal. Blackberry has stated they are done with Hardware, so THEY have determined their stated goal wasn't met.

    The answer Android advocates are trying to default to, is that this was still the best choice, and I question whether that is true or not. They put SOME resources into Android software, so was that a BIGGER waste of effort than supporting BB10 for a bit longer? I don't know how much money was put in, or would have been needed.

    What you seem to be wishing I'd do is accept someone else's "confirmation bias" about THEIR wishes and desires, and assumptions about what has and hasn't failed and why. I want the information.

    If Android sales were great, and lived up to the hopes people expressed, I'd be happy to say "Congratulations--you made a good choice." That doesn't appear to be the case, so I think it is important to deal with THIS reality. This was another failure. I'm still HOPING that Android Software will go somewhere, but I see nothing that indicates Blackberry is addressing problems that will make ANY product offered under their name more desirable to any consumer.

    What I find ironic, is that a lot of people who are quick to shout-down BB10 advocates as being in denial or advocating for "Failures" are now facing their own "Failure" with a good deal of denial or at least avoidance.

    KAM
    Last edited by KAM1138; 09-30-16 at 08:58 AM.
    09-30-16 08:46 AM
  22. KAM1138's Avatar
    This, and the fact that BlackBerrys main focus is on enterprise customer's I would say going android has been beneficial. As BlackBerry is able to make the necessary changes to Android over the next few major OS updates you will see that it was the best move to make.

    Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android
    Given what we've heard so far, how much effort do you think that Blackberry is likely to give to improving Android on phones that someone slaps their label on, or with their consumer software? What information do we have regarding sales of Android-based software? Because the same sort of thinking applies-if there aren't customers to support it, then it too will be dropped.

    I'm guessing that consumer level products of any kind aren't of interest to blackberry. I'm not sure that they've put much of any effort into this for some time, other than letting things clear the existing pipeline. I hope I'm wrong, but I'm skeptical of whether Blackberry software is going anywhere on Android. What are they doing to build that customer base?

    KAM
    09-30-16 08:50 AM
  23. KAM1138's Avatar
    Hello,

    Just for reference, here are some of the things I said last year about this time:
    It doesn't matter if Blackberry puts out an Android Phone IF the other issues (their pathetic marketing being a big one, and general pathetic PR and communications) aren't solved, but that's EXACTLY where we are headed.

    So, all of you counting on Android being a savior play...brace yourselves.

    Let me state again, the play that people seem to be putting their hopes on: That people will be drawn in by Android (meaning--access to apps), and just fall in love with whatever Blackberry features the phone has pasted on.

    Do you really think that people are going to flock to the Brand that is a joke, or that they think is dead OVER Samsung...or LG or whoever else puts out phones that their friends have? They aren't. A few curiosity seekers is about all you are likely to get. Can that number be significant? Maybe--compared to the tiny number of Blackberry users...sure, that's an incredibly low hurdle, and it won't turn anything around.

    Or I have no idea what I'm talking about, but I'm willing to Eat Crow on this--I'd happily do so, should the Venice turn BlackBerry around. Just VERY doubtful that will happen.

    Android/Google play is highly unlikely to save Blackberry.


    So, while the value of being "right" (if that is the case) is zero, I do want to point out that being WRONG (again) is costly. Blackberry continues to make choices, or fails to do what's necessary to make their choices succeed. I'd rather be wrong, but it looks like my fears have basically come true.

    KAM
    09-30-16 09:22 AM
  24. KAM1138's Avatar
    So exactly why did you start a thread as a question, then vehemently argue against any comment that doesn't agree with your opinion?

    Clearly the only answer to "Android Path--Who was Right?" is "KAM1138 was right." You're not looking for an actual answer, just confirmation bias.
    You know--maybe you're correct. Asking "who was right" might mislead someone into thinking that saying "I'm right" is what I'm after. Being "right" on an internet forum has no value.

    I should have titled the Thread "Who is WRONG?" ( I'm not sure how to edit that Title) Why--because being wrong (again and again) is what has led to this company being where it is today--namely in regards to Phones, which is my primary interest, and that is...basically done.

    KAM
    09-30-16 09:27 AM
  25. Dunt Dunt Dunt's Avatar
    Hello,

    No, Blackberry has strung customers along the whole time with statements like "We never said we wouldn't produce another BB10 phone."

    Nebulous statements with no intention of following through is tantamount to lying.

    KAM

    Posted via CB10
    A corporation stringing along users in order to sell existing products.... think BlackBerry has a patent on that too.
    Powdah likes this.
    09-30-16 01:19 PM
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