[Bbnivende]

Android was the only possible choice other than just shutting down devices a year ago. It was worth a shot.

In the meantime, they have built up a decent portfolio of Android apps and hardening software that they can licence. So it may have been worth it anyway.

The problem lies with BlackBerry's commitment to what they do . How long will they offer the Dtek's for sale? How long will they provide OS updates? Will they be bringing a new PKB to market? How long will they enhance and develop their Hub and launcher?

They should make a commitment to do SOMETHING and follow through.

[Bbnivende]

So, you're saying that BBRY needs to sell hardware to demonstrate their patents value.
You claim that BB10 was no longer sufficient for that purpose (not selling).
So, then the question is--did the shift to Android improve that situation? Did sales improve?
If NOT, and especially if BB10 sales exceed Android Sales (I do not know if they did or not), then wouldn't it have been better to simply keep selling BB10 devices (as they continue to do today)?

In light shifting to Android and of the failure to accomplish 'Saving hardware' or what you suggest in regards to patents, shouldn't one ask--whether in retrospect, this was the only choice.

At a MINIMUM BBRY had a choice to keep selling BB10 Devices (even if just the ones they already had) or to Pursue Android, but neither of these preclude other possibilities they MIGHT have chosen. I don't know--a collaboration with LG with WebOS-picking an idea out of a hat, not to say that would have been better or worse, but to demonstrate there are other possibilities.

Whenever there are choices, there are reasons behind them that can be weighed.

KAM

I would suggest that their Enterprise customers were saying that they were going to support either or both iOS and Android. The Leap showed very low traction and yet it was marketed as a Enterprise fleet phone.

Posted via CB10

[Orange UK]

I would suggest that their Enterprise customers were saying that they were going to support either or both iOS and Android. The Leap showed very low traction and yet it was marketed as a Enterprise fleet phone.

Posted via CB10

Was a Leap of faith enterprise would take that piece of junk on, a begging bowl.


In 5 years since 9900 there has been little movement in quality or spec features, the software OS has never been BB biggest issue, its junk hardware whilst others sped past has been.


A redesigned 4G Bold with BB10 & a great processor is what enterprise want over a crap spec touchscreen Leap.

[KAM1138]

Hello,

I really don't agree that the Passport is bad hardware. I heard some people had quality control issues which is a problem, but the design is really good. Mine has been nearly flawless.

KAM

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[Bbnivende]

Was a Leap of faith enterprise would take that piece of junk on, a begging bowl.


In 5 years since 9900 there has been little movement in quality or spec features, the software OS has never been BB biggest issue, its junk hardware whilst others sped past has been.


A redesigned 4G Bold with BB10 & a great processor is what enterprise want over a crap spec touchscreen Leap.

You have a point.the reliability or specs of the B10 devices and the PRIV but there is no evidence that Enterprise wants a PKB that has few apps. Mr. Chen says that they needed to sell 10 million BB10 units a year for the device division to be profitable.

The licensing plan may not work for us fans but BlackBerry will have cut their losses

Incidentally, the Manchester Police department purchased 6000 Leaps !!

[co4nd]

I've heard a lot of people say this. Ok, so based on what? What was this decision based on? Or are we to expect that Corporations just say "Hey, what if we try this..." without some sort of backup to justify that action. So...was that study NOT performed? Was it just wildly wrong? OR, was there something else at play.

Because what I didn't hear was "Wow, we were really close and just missed our Android Sales working out for us." Actually, there was an article posted in another thread, where the manager of devices (forget the exact title) was talking about how they knew this was a tight market with little margin.

KAM

They owe their share holders an explanation of their results, I don't think they'll ever publish their research or any evidence as to why they made the decision they did. And I doubt they have any obligation to do so. The only thing for certain is BB10 was a flop and they couldn't stay with it. The only proof you need to see it was a flop is the market share it had prior to Priv's release.

[KAM1138]

They owe their share holders an explanation of their results, I don't think they'll ever publish their research or any evidence as to why they made the decision they did. And I doubt they have any obligation to do so. The only thing for certain is BB10 was a flop and they couldn't stay with it. The only proof you need to see it was a flop is the market share it had prior to Priv's release.

Well, I'm a shareholder.

Beyond that, and what may be legally required, if customers and shareholders believe they are being mislead that's a problem. More likely no one cares enough nor have any interest in doing business with Blackberry.

Yes, BB10 was not successful, but the whole point is whether they really identified ALL the reasons why BLACKBERRY the company has failed. BB10 has been scapegoated for that failure, but now we see an equal or larger failure with the most popular OS out there (Android).

See, the narrative is that BB10 failed because it was buggy at launch, or because it lacks certain apps. Well, that theory has now been tested and Blackberry has still failed. So, how long will it take before anyone wakes up and questioned whether their premise was wrong and whether the 'solution' based on those premises might also have been wrong.

Well, I guess it is just too late for that now, and it always was, not because BB10, but because Blackberry the Brand is somewhere between Toxic and a joke. THAT is the common issue that exists with BB10 and Android. Not to deny that other issues also exist.

I think maybe it is time to consider that BB10 is not why Blackberry failed and neither is Android.


Posted via CB10

[conite]

Well, I'm a shareholder.

Beyond that, and what may be legally required, if customers and shareholders believe they are being mislead that's a problem. More likely no one cares enough nor have any interest in doing business with Blackberry.

Yes, BB10 was not successful, but the whole point is whether they really identified ALL the reasons why BLACKBERRY the company has failed. BB10 has been scapegoated for that failure, but now we see an equal or larger failure with the most popular OS out there (Android).

See, the narrative is that BB10 failed because it was buggy at launch, or because it lacks certain apps. Well, that theory has now been tested and Blackberry has still failed. So, how long will it take before anyone wakes up and questioned whether their premise was wrong and whether the 'solution' based on those premises might also have been wrong.

Well, I guess it is just too late for that now, and it always was, not because BB10, but because Blackberry the Brand is somewhere between Toxic and a joke. THAT is the common issue that exists with BB10 and Android. Not to deny that other issues also exist.

I think maybe it is time to consider that BB10 is not why Blackberry failed and neither is Android.


Posted via CB10

BB10 and BlackBerry Android failed for different t reasons.

BB10 was too late to market which led to lack of developer support.

The Priv was too expensive and over estimated the market size of pkb lovers.

[sorinv]

All BB10 phones were expensive. Priv was no exception.

[murphcid]

Plus they had really poor QC, just read the issues about the Priv. I never had a 9700 last more than 6-9 months before the keyboard died on each. I have never had any of my android phones die, all my HTC phones work great, and last. Same with the iPhones with one exception.

All BB10 phones were expensive. Priv was no exception.

[KAM1138]

BB10 and BlackBerry Android failed for different t reasons.

BB10 was too late to market which led to lack of developer support.

The Priv was too expensive and over estimated the market size of pkb lovers.

I think those are true statements, but they're only part of the reason why each failed--perhaps a relatively small part, when you look at the overall failures of the company. What's also true is that Blackberry is a brand that is a joke to many, or probably more common effectively non-existent. That is an important factor that people just seem to keep ignoring.

The "lack of apps" theory of failure is now demonstrably false. Blackberry phones have all the apps anyone else does now, and it made nearly zero difference. So, JUST providing Apps and a cheaper OS didn't mean anything. They were wrong if they thought it would, and as a result of following this path, and failing to find any other forward, Hardware is now done.

So, perhaps while your statements in themselves are correct, those AREN'T the reason that either failed, because there is still an overriding common problem for both. Blaze (and others) has talked about how the Blackberry Brand is likely harmful to BBM, and that putting the name on the front of the DTEK50 is no benefit. I think that's getting to the point. Blackberry as a brand is NOT well accepted by the vast majority of people these days.

What I find odd is how ANYONE, most especially Blackberry executives fail to understand this, and that it impacts everything they do--at least in regards to consumer products. So, I think there are two possibilities from that 1) They don't care, because they're just running out the clock on consumer products, or 2) They're incredibly incompetent. Which is more likely?

Another odd thing is that people thinking that Android would rescue hardware were every bit as delusional as those that think that BB10 is gonna make a comeback. It never was, again...because Blackberry does not attract customers beyond the tiny group of us who know they make some good products, and they've done nothing to correct that problem--at least nothing approaching effective.

I find the whole thing pretty depressing, because I think Blackberry had some really good products and innovations that others are still not matching (in certain areas).

KAM

[conite]

I think those are true statements, but they're only part of the reason why each failed--perhaps a relatively small part, when you look at the overall failures of the company. What's also true is that Blackberry is a brand that is a joke to many, or probably more common effectively non-existent. That is an important factor that people just seem to keep ignoring.

The "lack of apps" theory of failure is now demonstrably false. Blackberry phones have all the apps anyone else does now, and it made nearly zero difference. So, JUST providing Apps and a cheaper OS didn't mean anything. They were wrong if they thought it would, and as a result of following this path, and failing to find any other forward, Hardware is now done.

So, perhaps while your statements in themselves are correct, those AREN'T the reason that either failed, because there is still an overriding common problem for both. Blaze (and others) has talked about how the Blackberry Brand is likely harmful to BBM, and that putting the name on the front of the DTEK50 is no benefit. I think that's getting to the point. Blackberry as a brand is NOT well accepted by the vast majority of people these days.

What I find odd is how ANYONE, most especially Blackberry executives fail to understand this, and that it impacts everything they do--at least in regards to consumer products. So, I think there are two possibilities from that 1) They don't care, because they're just running out the clock on consumer products, or 2) They're incredibly incompetent. Which is more likely?

Another odd thing is that people thinking that Android would rescue hardware were every bit as delusional as those that think that BB10 is gonna make a comeback. It never was, again...because Blackberry does not attract customers beyond the tiny group of us who know they make some good products, and they've done nothing to correct that problem--at least nothing approaching effective.

I find the whole thing pretty depressing, because I think Blackberry had some really good products and innovations that others are still not matching (in certain areas).

KAM

You are trying to make an equivalency where one doesn't exist. The fact that the Priv failed does not imply that BB10's failure had nothing to do with lack of apps.

They failed for different reasons as I explained.

[KAM1138]

You are trying to make an equivalency where one doesn't exist. The fact that the Priv failed does not imply that BB10's failure had nothing to do with lack of apps.

They failed for different reasons as I explained.

I'm not trying to draw that equivalency. I'm saying you're ignoring bigger issues, and pointing to symptoms. However, I didn't state that well--I'm not intending to say that PRIVs failure means that BB10's lack of apps wasn't AN issue. It was, just not THE issue.
Similarly, the high price of the PRIV (not higher than other phones that people are willing to pay for) isn't THE issue. The lack of interest in the PKB is likely a bigger factor for that specific phones problem.

But Blackberry isn't just failing here or there are they? No--they're failing across the board in the consumer market. The fact is Blackberry has offered a fairly wide variety of products. Keyboard models, sliders, classic BBRY styles, Slab phones with BB10 AND Android--with modest or expansive app selection. One could argue that Blackberry has offered more different options than lots of other companies.

And NONE of them succeeded. So, no--they didn't fail for the reasons you specified (those are merely contributing issues under a larger umbrella of problems). They failed, because very few people know about what Blackberry has to offer, or they dismiss it out of hand if they do. The Brand is broken in the consumer market, so it doesn't matter what they put out (barring some massive revolution no one has yet considered).

Oversimplification of Blackberry's problems and ignoring more global problems is one of the reasons they've continued to fail (again in the consumer market).

KAM

[Bbnivende]

Every single phone made by BlackBerry after 2012 had critical flaws that contributed to their failure. This includes both hardware and software issues. So now the brand is toxic.

Yes, BlackBerry can come back if their product is as good or better than the competition. Yes, there still is a niche market for a full time PKB. The renders for the Mercury look promising .

[KAM1138]

Every single phone made by BlackBerry after 2012 had critical flaws that contributed to their failure. This includes both hardware and software issues. So now the brand is toxic.

Yes, BlackBerry can come back if their product is as good or better than the competition. Yes, there still is a niche market for a full time PKB. The renders for the Mercury look promising .

Hello,

I think the brand was on its way down before 2012, even if they still had a lot more users. They launched BB10 into a market that already had turned on them, and the company was being bashed in the media regularly.

KAM

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[bh7171]

The carriers were turning on them at a time everyone was utilizing 2 year upgrades. BlackBerry with OS7 compressed data and carriers were learning with the iPhone and others they could monetize data. The devs then went with the greater numbers and a two horse show. How F'n long did it take AT&T, T-Mo and or Verizon to release 10.2.1 that made the Z10 and Q10 immeasurably better?

Via the Cobalt Classic

[Bbnivende]

Hello,

I think the brand was on its way down before 2012, even if they still had a lot more users. They launched BB10 into a market that already had turned on them, and the company was being bashed in the media regularly.

KAM

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

I agree . They did not, could not, make a good all touch phone. There was a prototype for a new slider , the Milan, which was going to be BBOS and the carriers did not approve.

The phrase "There's an app for that" was trademarked in October 2010. Certainly by the end of 2011 there was an expectation of a very healthy app store and ecosystem designed for all touch phones and tablets.

[murphcid]

The Passport and Classic should have been released with Android. They should have had better internals. Blackberry should pay more attention to QC issues (but at least their phones are not self-detonating like Samsung) since it seems like you have to go through four or five Privs to get a "good" one. BB10 should have been abandoned for Android two years earlier. They should have either made App developers more welcome, or made it easier to develop Apps for BB 10. But, from my viewpoint, Blackberry is dead, you don't see them in stores, you don't see them advertised, and you seldom ever see them in the wild anymore.

[murphcid]

Yes, I completely agree with you, with the exception of, I don't think Blackberry can come back. They are invisible now to the buying public. It is a Samsung/iPhone world these days.

Every single phone made by BlackBerry after 2012 had critical flaws that contributed to their failure. This includes both hardware and software issues. So now the brand is toxic.

Yes, BlackBerry can come back if their product is as good or better than the competition. Yes, there still is a niche market for a full time PKB. The renders for the Mercury look promising .

[JulesDB]

At the end of the day BlackBerry10 may still have a value.

The differences between using BlackBerry10 and Android to me seems the same between actually paying the mortgage of your home and renting a bigger one.



Posted via CB10

[KAM1138]

The Passport and Classic should have been released with Android. They should have had better internals. Blackberry should pay more attention to QC issues (but at least their phones are not self-detonating like Samsung) since it seems like you have to go through four or five Privs to get a "good" one. BB10 should have been abandoned for Android two years earlier. They should have either made App developers more welcome, or made it easier to develop Apps for BB 10. But, from my viewpoint, Blackberry is dead, you don't see them in stores, you don't see them advertised, and you seldom ever see them in the wild anymore.

Which is exactly why JUST switching to Android Earlier wouldn't likely have made a difference. Android wasn't the solution, because the OS wasn't THE problem. App availability was A problem.

[KAM1138]

At the end of the day BlackBerry10 may still have a value.

The differences between using BlackBerry10 and Android to me seems the same between actually paying the mortgage of your home and renting a bigger one.

Posted via CB10

I'd love to see BB10 find a viable outlet, but I think that's a long shot, AND still Blackberry remains a joke to the vast majority of consumers.

Blackberry would have to both Repair their Brand Image, OR reintroduce themselves, AND offer a product (via a hardware partner) that stands out in some significant way. I'm not sure what that could be at this point, but I think it has to do what IT does best, and stop trying to do what others do better.

Apple didn't say "Well, here's OUR Blackberry-ish device" when Blackberry was on top. They went a significantly different direction, and even though the original iphone sucked in a lot of ways, it was DIFFERENT, and attractive and people ate it up.

"Me too" strategies aren't working, so it seems that something different is something to consider.

KAM

[Bbnivende]

Which is exactly why JUST switching to Android Earlier wouldn't likely have made a difference. Android wasn't the solution, because the OS wasn't THE problem. App availability was A problem.

I do not think that BlackBerry is a toxic brand to consumers who would want a good full time PKB Android phone. We just do not know if there is even a niche market for such a device.

[KAM1138]

I do not think that BlackBerry is a toxic brand to consumers who would want a good full time PKB Android phone. We just do not know if there is even a niche market for such a device.

Well, they aren't toxic to me either, but to most people, I don't think they are even considered and that assumes they think they are even still in the phone business. Of course, I guess technically they aren't anymore.



Posted via CB10

[Bbnivende]

I can agree with that.