[KAM1138]

A corporation stringing along users in order to sell existing products.... think BlackBerry has a patent on that too.

Not at all. I do find it interesting that some people tend to bash those who are simply referencing what the company says (perhaps unwisely taking them at their word, or giving them the benefit of the doubt), instead of maybe calling out those who are misleading their customers.

Of course, doing things that undermine the trust of your customers is yet another problem for a company.

KAM

[khlover520]

It hasn't even been a year since the Priv launched. How can anyone expect huge results from BlackBerry in one year, especially when next to no one knows BlackBerry still makes phones? That's where many factors come in, such as marketing.

Posted via CB10

[Ed YANG]

1) What happened to device sales and Market share for Blackberry labeled phones?
2) Did Android Devices outsell BB10 Devices (obviously new phones might have a chance to outsell older models)

Pardon me for asking...
What's your confidence on the future of the BERRIFIED DROID phones? Will you adopt it?
I personally love the concept of PRIV.
It's classy.
It's sleek.
...and It's cool!
However i'm quite turned off by it's adoption of open source OS, wrapped with BB badged blanket... and the premium price to own even until now... close to one year of the release.
People like BBOS10 because of the claimed security,
some like BBOS10 for the navigation which brings them back to OS7, OS5 where there were some similarity.
I myself like BBOS10 for the limitation of accommodating some software which may turn out hogging my system...

The answer to your question...
1) I believe the hottest selling device in BB history goes back OS7 or OS5 era... i couldn't determine on which model though, but it's certainly a PKB device.
2) PRIV had performed badly compare to the old Zs(Z10 as well as Z3), thanks to the person whom stamp the approval of using BERRIFIED DROID OS of OPEN SOURCE ORIGIN to be used in their PREMIUM piece which carries premium price.The future? You'll be better off buying other manufacturer makes with better hardware and competitive price!

[KAM1138]

Android was a last ditch effort. BB10 was a total market failure and going nowhere. Android was the last chance at staying in the hardware business.

I've heard a lot of people say this. Ok, so based on what? What was this decision based on? Or are we to expect that Corporations just say "Hey, what if we try this..." without some sort of backup to justify that action. So...was that study NOT performed? Was it just wildly wrong? OR, was there something else at play.

Because what I didn't hear was "Wow, we were really close and just missed our Android Sales working out for us." Actually, there was an article posted in another thread, where the manager of devices (forget the exact title) was talking about how they knew this was a tight market with little margin.

KAM

[anon(3983727)]

I'm glad they tried. Blackberry wouldn't even exist today, in any capacity, had they kept flushing billions of dollars down the toilet with BB10.

Unfortunately, like everything else, they made their move too late. On day one Chen should have begun winding down BB10 and started an Android initiative. It may have made a bigger difference.

The thing people don't seem to get is that John Chen actually loves the BB10 OS. He wanted to make it work somehow. But letting emotional attachment override business sense almost always leads to failure. That's why 99.9% of the armchair CEO's on this forum would have taken the company straight to bankruptcy and liquidation in less than 12 months.

I have never understood this argument. What billions were wasted on BB10? The z10 was a sales success compared to just about every other first generation device, including the iPhone. Blackberry did more hardware recycling than any other major name device maker and likely saved a ton on drivers. The waste was having soo many totally different products with absolutely no upgrade path. They pumped out a totally random assortment of devices and never even attempted to try to simply build what the consumers wanted.
The solution to the app deficiency was to sell more devices. You sell more devices by providing something people want to buy. People want to buy when you make them think they NEED it. People think they need it when its the cool thing to have or the only way to get something done.
Blackberry build a soccer field, tennis court, basketball court and a hockey rink in the field of dreams.

[DenverRalphy]

I've heard a lot of people say this. Ok, so based on what? What was this decision based on? Or are we to expect that Corporations just say "Hey, what if we try this..." without some sort of backup to justify that action. So...was that study NOT performed? Was it just wildly wrong? OR, was there something else at play.

The rapidly declining hardware sales quarter after quarter over several years. It was pretty obvious.

[conite]

Not at all. I do find it interesting that some people tend to bash those who are simply referencing what the company says (perhaps unwisely taking them at their word, or giving them the benefit of the doubt), instead of maybe calling out those who are misleading their customers.

Of course, doing things that undermine the trust of your customers is yet another problem for a company.

KAM

BlackBerry said future business conditions would dictate the possibility of another BB10 device. They didn't rule it out, because I don't think they really meant to.

I think we, and BlackBerry, would have agreed that the chances of a major device division turnaround would have been very unlikely. But that doesn't change the fact that they sincerely did not "rule it out".

[conite]

I've heard a lot of people say this. Ok, so based on what? What was this decision based on? Or are we to expect that Corporations just say "Hey, what if we try this..." without some sort of backup to justify that action. So...was that study NOT performed? Was it just wildly wrong? OR, was there something else at play.

Because what I didn't hear was "Wow, we were really close and just missed our Android Sales working out for us." Actually, there was an article posted in another thread, where the manager of devices (forget the exact title) was talking about how they knew this was a tight market with little margin.

KAM

The massive device returns and the huge inventory write downs signalled a different issue that what iPhone or early Android went through.

It meant that people did not want to keep the devices after they learned they couldn't run their favourite apps. Another 5 million device sales wouldn't have changed that a bit for developers. It was still insignificant compared to the two ecosystems they were satisfied with.

[KAM1138]

The rapidly declining hardware sales quarter after quarter over several years. It was pretty obvious.

The Decline in BB10 sales didn't have any inherent link to the choice of pursuing Android--which is A specific choice. I'm not asking if OTHER efforts failed (they did), I'm asking what data did they have indicating that Android sales would be a better choice.
The way you are referring to this seems to say they are simply defaulting to the next choice.

While the results of such a practice might have been similar, I'm hoping there is a bit more study and substance behind decisions at Blackberry. HOPE being such a questionable thing with them.

KAM

[KAM1138]

BlackBerry said future business conditions would dictate the possibility of another BB10 device. They didn't rule it out, because I don't think they really meant to.

I think we, and BlackBerry, would have agreed that the chances of a major device division turnaround would have been very unlikely. But that doesn't change the fact that they sincerely did not "rule it out".

Well, that begs the question--what future conditions would have possibly led to this possibility? What condition were they looking for to provide them that answer?

So, if everyone thought that a major turn-around in Devices was unlikely...then again, I question the wisdom of pursuing this as a business.

Sounds like people are admitting that Blackberry really is feckless and has no actual plan other than "Trying something." This seems to fly in the face of claims that "Chen knows what he's doing."
Either he doesn't know what he's doing (failing as badly as anyone else), or he DOES, but his actual goals aren't what they are publicly stating.

Neither case seems to be a positive place for a company to be.

[KAM1138]

The massive device returns and the huge inventory write downs signalled a different issue that what iPhone or early Android went through.

It meant that people did not want to keep the devices after they learned they couldn't run their favourite apps. Another 5 million device sales wouldn't have changed that a bit for developers. It was still insignificant compared to the two ecosystems they were satisfied with.

Again--this seems to be an indication of BB10's failure, NOT a specific recommendation to pursue Android, which was ONE possibility.
What led them to that specific path?

If the argument is that they pursued Android, because they were out of other ideas...well, I suppose that's possible. It doesn't however, seem to be sound business planning.

AND, judging by the results and the stated goal (to try and remain in hardware), it WASN'T a successful decision.

Of course, to be consistent, I won't blame Android, just like I don't blame BB10 for the Wide Range of failures at Blackberry. That's sort of the point I've been trying to make for 4+ years (on and off)

KAM

[conite]

Well, that begs the question--what future conditions would have possibly led to this possibility? What condition were they looking for to provide them that answer?

Good question, but I would think it all comes down to money.

If the Android play was a big hit, then they might have considered dropping a Snapdragon 801 based slab and / or Classic update.

[conite]

Again--this seems to be an indication of BB10's failure, NOT a specific recommendation to pursue Android, which was ONE possibility.
What led them to that specific path?

If the argument is that they pursued Android, because they were out of other ideas...well, I suppose that's possible. It doesn't however, seem to be sound business planning.

KAM

Android was the only possible choice other than just shutting down devices a year ago. It was worth a shot.

In the meantime, they have built up a decent portfolio of Android apps and hardening software that they can licence. So it may have been worth it anyway.

[DenverRalphy]

The Decline in BB10 sales didn't have any inherent link to the choice of pursuing Android-- <snip>

Sure it did. Part of BBRY's valuation is based on the value of their hardware patents. BB10 devices weren't selling, and costing them money. BBRY needs to sell hardware to demonstrate that those hardware patents hold value. BB10 was no longer working for them, so they had to try something else, which was attempting to see if they could sell more devices with the Android OS. That didn't work. So now they're trying the next best thing, licensing out their patents. And if that doesn't work, their last ditch effort will probably be an attempt to sell those patents to anybody who might be interested. And if that doesn't work out, then BBRY's hardware patents become a non-value, and BBRY will have to eat the loss in valuation.

[GendelPrime]

I have never understood this argument. What billions were wasted on BB10? The z10 was a sales success compared to just about every other first generation device, including the iPhone. Blackberry did more hardware recycling than any other major name device maker and likely saved a ton on drivers. The waste was having soo many totally different products with absolutely no upgrade path. They pumped out a totally random assortment of devices and never even attempted to try to simply build what the consumers wanted.
The solution to the app deficiency was to sell more devices. You sell more devices by providing something people want to buy. People want to buy when you make them think they NEED it. People think they need it when its the cool thing to have or the only way to get something done.
Blackberry build a soccer field, tennis court, basketball court and a hockey rink in the field of dreams.

The Z10/Q10 were massive failures there was a huge write down on unsold inventories just like the PlayBook . It was so bad it got Thorsten fired.

Posted via the CrackBerry App for Android

[KAM1138]

Good question, but I would think it all comes down to money.

If the Android play was a big hit, then they might have considered dropping a Snapdragon 801 based slab and / or Classic update.

Do you think this was likely, or was it more likely that they were angling for ending Hardware, because they were well aware of the chances of success being low.

I guess I won't hit them TOO hard for this, because even through Android Blackberries are my thing--I would rather see devices, than no devices. That's just personal preference however--not that it should shape their planning.

[Orange UK]

Sure it did. Part of BBRY's valuation is based on the value of their hardware patents. BB10 devices weren't selling, and costing them money. BBRY needs to sell hardware to demonstrate that those hardware patents hold value. BB10 was no longer working for them, so they had to try something else, which was attempting to see if they could sell more devices with the Android OS. That didn't work. So now they're trying the next best thing, licensing out their patents. And if that doesn't work, their last ditch effort will probably be an attempt to sell those patents to anybody who might be interested.

YUP.


BB is also shutting down UMA servers with carriers to get them pesky revenue customers off BBOS onto BB10, ooppps no BBAndy



Multiple Personality Disorder cutting its nose off despite its face comes to mind.

[KAM1138]

Android was the only possible choice other than just shutting down devices a year ago. It was worth a shot.

In the meantime, they have built up a decent portfolio of Android apps and hardening software that they can licence. So it may have been worth it anyway.

As I've said, I'd be happy for Android software to succeed. I just don't think it is likely, or that they're really supporting that in a way that will end up well. I've said it before--I hope I'm wrong.

Was Android REALLY the only other choice, or the default choice, based on wanting to spend as little money as they could?

KAM

[DenverRalphy]

Was Android REALLY the only other choice, or the default choice, based on wanting to spend as little money as they could?

What other choice is there? iOS? Obviously not. Apple doesn't license out. Window licenses out (albeit very strictly and rarely in an OEM's favor), but the Windows OS is suffering from the same ecosystem poblems as BB10, and there's no way in hell that Microsoft would license out their OS when it's going to be branded with a competitor's name. Not to mention, when hardware sales are already costing you money, the last thing you do when trying to make it profitable is to add yet another cost (licensing) into the mix.

So yes. Android really was the only option.

[KAM1138]

Sure it did. Part of BBRY's valuation is based on the value of their hardware patents. BB10 devices weren't selling, and costing them money. BBRY needs to sell hardware to demonstrate that those hardware patents hold value. BB10 was no longer working for them, so they had to try something else, which was attempting to see if they could sell more devices with the Android OS. That didn't work. So now they're trying the next best thing, licensing out their patents. And if that doesn't work, their last ditch effort will probably be an attempt to sell those patents to anybody who might be interested. And if that doesn't work out, then BBRY's hardware patents become a non-value, and BBRY will have to eat the loss in valuation.

So, you're saying that BBRY needs to sell hardware to demonstrate their patents value.
You claim that BB10 was no longer sufficient for that purpose (not selling).
So, then the question is--did the shift to Android improve that situation? Did sales improve?
If NOT, and especially if BB10 sales exceed Android Sales (I do not know if they did or not), then wouldn't it have been better to simply keep selling BB10 devices (as they continue to do today)?

In light shifting to Android and of the failure to accomplish 'Saving hardware' or what you suggest in regards to patents, shouldn't one ask--whether in retrospect, this was the only choice.

At a MINIMUM BBRY had a choice to keep selling BB10 Devices (even if just the ones they already had) or to Pursue Android, but neither of these preclude other possibilities they MIGHT have chosen. I don't know--a collaboration with LG with WebOS-picking an idea out of a hat, not to say that would have been better or worse, but to demonstrate there are other possibilities.

Whenever there are choices, there are reasons behind them that can be weighed.

KAM

[KAM1138]

What other choice is there? iOS? Obviously not. Apple doesn't license out. Window licenses out (albeit very strictly and rarely in an OEM's favor), but the Windows OS is suffering from the same ecosystem poblems as BB10, and there's no way in hell that Microsoft would license out their OS when it's going to be branded with a competitor's name. Not to mention, when hardware sales are already costing you money, the last thing you do when trying to make it profitable is to add yet another cost (licensing) into the mix.

So yes. Android really was the only option.

Or to continue BB10 in a minimal way--perhaps using hardware where there were drivers available (same internals as Passport perhaps), OR to try and partner with LG and use WebOS.

If you're trying to say that Android was the most APPARENT option, then fine. ONLY option in a world of possibilities...well no.

They had it within their power to choose to continue with BB10, but Based on SOMETHING decided it was a better choice to try Android. What I'm asking is what Data led them to believe that the result would be better. Because we're now seeing it isn't. It just didn't work out, so SOMEONE was wrong in their assumptions OR their efforts at selling this.

KAM

[conite]

Do you think this was likely, or was it more likely that they were angling for ending Hardware, because they were well aware of the chances of success being low.

I guess I won't hit them TOO hard for this, because even through Android Blackberries are my thing--I would rather see devices, than no devices. That's just personal preference however--not that it should shape their planning.

I would bet that they were sincere in thinking there was a chance. Not a big one maybe, but a chance nonetheless.

[conite]

Was Android REALLY the only other choice, or the default choice, based on wanting to spend as little money as they could?

KAM

There was no point in going to a platform with an equally deprecated ecosystem. It was only Android or iOS, and the latter is occupied.

[KAM1138]

There was no point in going to a platform with an equally deprecated ecosystem. It was only Android or iOS, and the latter is occupied.

First, I am not assuming that shifting to a different OS was a must in the realm of possibility.
That assumes that Ecosystem was the solution (different from saying not a problem). I think we see now, that alone wasn't a sufficient solution. They fixed the Ecosystem issues by going to Android...and it didn't matter in the end.

Just to CONSIDER, if there is any validity to the '50% of people don't download apps' thing--it seems POSSIBLE (even if difficult) to find SOME niche of customers that they could appeal to with a set of features and selection of popular apps. Just as a POSSIBILITY for purpose of discussion.

So, knowing that now, I am asking what led them to that. Again--it sounds like it really was a default and a shrug. Water under the bridge, but I think it does speak to the leadership, and should serve as a warning for what they're stating about future plans.

[KAM1138]

Hello,

The following is an excerpt from an article that Blackberry posted on twitter
http://www.ibtimes.com/blackberrys-d...source=twitter

Pini said that BlackBerry’s plans to halt hardware development internally was already in the works even before he was considered to be the head of the device team, he revealed in an interview with TechCrunch. The phone maker has been struggling to compete with other companies like Apple and Samsung for the last few years which prompted it to do something different in 2015.

Already in the works...