06-16-11 06:51 AM
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  1. Rooster99's Avatar
    Amazing of you, Rooster99, to have scoured the internets to find that rarest of finds, a biased, critical swipe at RIM! I hadn't seen one of these in ages, so thanks for that! I'm kidding ...
    Glad you're kidding. I couldn't tell from the rest of your post.

    I'm not an economist, but I'm pretty comfortable with basic economic theory and business modeling. His description of the real world impact of late adopters on what we see as the traditional bell curve was fascinating, and can be applied to any tech company, or any company for that matter - those in industries experiencing rapid change will feel it the most, of course.

    If you choose to see his post as an attack focused solely on RIM, as opposed to a creative, illuminating, and generally applicable approach to analysis that has been applied to a company that is undeniably experiencing unexpected and negative results, I guess that's your call.

    - R.
    06-14-11 01:53 PM
  2. grover5's Avatar
    Glad you're kidding. I couldn't tell from the rest of your post.

    I'm not an economist, but I'm pretty comfortable with basic economic theory and business modeling. His description of the real world impact of late adopters on what we see as the traditional bell curve was fascinating, and can be applied to any tech company, or any company for that matter - those in industries experiencing rapid change will feel it the most, of course.

    If you choose to see his post as an attack focused solely on RIM, as opposed to a creative, illuminating, and generally applicable approach to analysis that has been applied to a company that is undeniably experiencing unexpected and negative results, I guess that's your call.

    - R.
    He presented an interesting angle and applied it to RIM. The story of the torch and his wife was not effective in support of his argument and it was key as he had to show the product lacking in an area that was meant to be a strength. In my opinion it made them sound dense. I think you are easily impressed. Or as you stated earlier, perhaps your standards are lower than mine.
    06-14-11 02:08 PM
  3. Economist101's Avatar
    But its the same premise that we see everywhere -- Apple is wondrous, all sentient beings are inexorably drawn to its magic -- RIM is dull and plodding, but even its dull and plodding loyalists have reached their limits.
    I think it's a bit simpler than that. The iPhone generates 2x as much revenue and 3x as much revenue as RIM's entire business. As a result, whenever these two companies are compared, Apple's going to come out ahead, just based on results. Similarly, if we compare RIM to HTC, RIM makes about 2x the profit on 5x the revenue, so RIM comes out ahead in most ways (though making just 2x the profit on 5x the revenue suggests inefficient performance). You can point to bias all you want, and maybe it's there, but at the same time the fact that Apple's results are better than RIMs can't be denied, just like it can't be denied that RIM's results are better than HTCs.

    And I like the way Mace crunches his numbers to yield doom from record sales, income, subscriber growth, etc. Sure signs of impending collapse.
    The percent growth from new subscribers has been falling for some time, and RIM has since stopped reporting this figure. Average selling price is down to around $300 a device (from a high of $370 just a few quarters back), another figure which RIM has stopped reporting. Together, these facts suggest fewer sales to new customers and an overall trend towards RIM's lower cost handsets, trends which aren't favored by investors or analysts.
    06-14-11 02:23 PM
  4. mjs416's Avatar
    I take it you don't design software? I've been involved in the software industry for 30+ years, including time spent with one of the world's largest leading software development firms. I expect modern software to warn me if there is a system issue in what I do.
    You expect software to warn you if you are doing something stupid?

    Ive developed software and applications from basic machine language to assembly language on x86 microprocessors to C++ and VB. Ive developed data acquisition software in various languages and completed a partial revamp of a power plant DCS integrating various databases and performing real time calculations of plant parameters for trending and performance analysis. Ive also done php code development with MySQL. So yeah... you're not special.

    Let me ask you this - if you write code, compile it, and it doesnt function properly - is it the compilers fault?

    Obviously you will experience far less disappointment than I will, simply because you have lower standards. That is not meant to be an insult, simply a statement of fact.

    - R.
    Lower standards? Because I dont expect software to tell me when Im doing something idiotic?
    06-14-11 02:45 PM
  5. mjs416's Avatar

    There is no reason for the response you are giving. You missed the point, you're not funny, the comments you make aren't cool or edgy.
    You quoted some article that you obviously feel equates to splitting the atom since you've posted it in like 3 different threads. Honestly - its just another article - one thread is enough. You can stop referencing it in every other post.

    I honestly take this guy with a grain of salt - if you look at his resume he was an executive officer in Palm when they started spiraling down into the abyss of inadequacy. Im glad he wrote an article. He's a stud - I get it. Im glad you read it and liked it. But when you post something like this you cant expect every single person to come in ohhhh'ing and ahhh'ing.

    And if you find my posts rude you must have paper thin skin because I'm actually showing restraint because I dont want booted off these forums because I like them.
    06-14-11 02:54 PM
  6. lnichols's Avatar
    To make it very clear, the point is that the apps weren't interacting well. If there is a requirement in App B that data be entered a certain way in App A, then App A should warn users of that.

    That is the mark of a well written set of apps that are properly integrated. When that doesn't happen, it's a clear indication there are different teams working on each app and the overall specification isn't very good.

    My response assumes you truly didn't understand, and that you weren't simply being rude and dismissive.

    - R.
    So the phone should know that the exact number of digits dialed to get to person X? That is insane. Do you have any international numbers programmed into your phone? If not let me tell you they are a lot longer than 10 digits. Also if you are in another country some dial plans are shorter than 10. Developing countries change dialing plans constantly. Since the wife didn't program the numbers properly to begin with, it isn't a stretch to assume that she probably wasn't editing the numbers properly either. Totally sounds like an ID10T error with her Torch!
    Last edited by lnichols; 06-14-11 at 03:18 PM.
    06-14-11 03:03 PM
  7. brucep1's Avatar
    I don't know why there is so much negativity with this post. This isn't just another article bashing Rim. The author actually gives it a plan on how to get back to the top.

    It's like so many people read the article headline, then start saying BIAS BIAS SEE!!!!

    Jeez, if you read the comments on here, there isn't a single news source that isn't biased and doesn't hate Rim to its core. Also, apparently every news source accepts money from other companies to bash Rim.
    06-14-11 03:04 PM
  8. mjs416's Avatar
    For the record - I did enjoy reading the article - I just found specific instances in his article ridiculous. Im allowed to have that opinion and post about it.
    06-14-11 03:11 PM
  9. Rooster99's Avatar
    So the phone should know that the exact number of digits dialed to get to person X? That is insane. Do you have any international numbers programmed into your phone? If not let me tell you they are a lot longer than 10 digits. Also if you are in another country some dial plans are shorter than 10. Developing countries change dialing plans constantly. Since the wife didn't program the numbers properly to begin with, it isn't a stretch to assume that she probably wasn't editing the numbers properly either. Totally sounds like an ID10T error with her Torch!
    Did you even read the article??? There are obvious inconsistencies between the messaging and contacts app.

    The messaging app requires area code, and the contacts app doesn't - but no warning is provided - poor design. The messaging app makes a snapshot of the contact data that can't be updated - poor design. When she tried to enter the full and proper telephone number in to send to, the messaging app changes it to the incorrect number it has on file - very poor design.

    I'm not going to assume anything about what the wide did/didn't do. All of the specific examples provided point specifically to poor software design.

    - R.
    ADGrant likes this.
    06-14-11 03:27 PM
  10. Rooster99's Avatar
    I don't know why there is so much negativity with this post. This isn't just another article bashing Rim. The author actually gives it a plan on how to get back to the top. ...
    Exactly - the last part of the title is "And what to do about it". There's a section that starts with "Here's what you need to do: How to avoid the cliff". There's another entitled "What RIM should do". Another called "Rescuing RIM".

    Providing a solution without demonstrating the premise the solution is built on would not be of much value. All the author did was show the proof for their theorem.

    Wow - talk about knee-j3rk reactions!

    - R.
    Last edited by Rooster99; 06-14-11 at 03:39 PM.
    06-14-11 03:36 PM
  11. Rooster99's Avatar
    You quoted some article that you obviously feel equates to splitting the atom since you've posted it in like 3 different threads. Honestly - its just another article - one thread is enough. You can stop referencing it in every other post.

    I honestly take this guy with a grain of salt - if you look at his resume he was an executive officer in Palm when they started spiraling down into the abyss of inadequacy. Im glad he wrote an article. He's a stud - I get it. Im glad you read it and liked it. But when you post something like this you cant expect every single person to come in ohhhh'ing and ahhh'ing.

    And if you find my posts rude you must have paper thin skin because I'm actually showing restraint because I dont want booted off these forums because I like them.
    For the record, I'm the OP. And I agree with Rollingrock on his assessment of your posts.

    - R.
    rollingrock1988 likes this.
    06-14-11 03:39 PM
  12. Rooster99's Avatar
    You expect software to warn you if you are doing something stupid? ... Lower standards? Because I dont expect software to tell me when Im doing something idiotic?
    If an app requires something be done a certain way in another app, yes, I expect that if the apps are supposed to be integrated, warnings will be created to ensure that takes place. It's as simple as that.

    You don't expect that. No problem, we have different standards. The people reading our posts can decide which standard applies to them.

    - R.
    06-14-11 03:45 PM
  13. lnichols's Avatar
    Did you even read the article??? There are obvious inconsistencies between the messaging and contacts app.

    The messaging app requires area code, and the contacts app doesn't - but no warning is provided - poor design. The messaging app makes a snapshot of the contact data that can't be updated - poor design. When she tried to enter the full and proper telephone number in to send to, the messaging app changes it to the incorrect number it has on file - very poor design.

    I'm not going to assume anything about what the wide did/didn't do. All of the specific examples provided point specifically to poor software design.

    - R.

    Yes I did, here is the section in question:

    My wife entered a lot of contacts directly into the device's contacts app, but didn't bother to include the area code in the phone numbers. The BlackBerry didn't warn her about this.

    Then she went to the messaging app and tried to send a text message to our daughter. When she tried to send the message, the app reported that it could not send to a contact without an area code. So she went back to the contacts app and added area codes.

    Then she went back to the messaging app and again tried to send a text message. The messaging app reported once again that it could not send a message without an area code. It had apparently made a copy of the data from the contacts app when it was first used, and would not update the copy. So my wife then edited the contact information from within the contacts app (it lets you do that). But when she tried to save the updated contact, the phone responded that it could not accept external changes to the contacts, and deleted the change.

    Next, she tried to send a message by typing our daughter's phone number, including area code, directly into the To: portion of a new message. When she tried to send that message, the messaging application did a lookup on its contacts database, changed the phone number back to the version without an area code, and then reported that it could not send the message because the phone number lacked an area code.
    Just as a test, I added a contact with a 7 digit number to my contacts name "Test". I then went in and did some of the things mentioned above. If I send a txt to Test, the mobile network sends me a response txt back from 9230 stating "Message sent using invalid number of digits. Please resend using 10 digit number or valid short code. Msg 2114". I would imagine that the network his wife was using sent something similar, and she thought it was the phone telling her this, but it was really the network. The phone is not complaining about the digits, the mobile network is.

    Now if you try to dial the 10 digit number directly, in but still have the conversation to "Test" that didn't work in there it will try to send it again to the 7 digit number and the network will respond with same message. This is probably poor function of the app in that function. I delete the conversation that doesn't work and then try to send to the 10 digit number and it goes through, so the txt would have worked without the previous poor conversation being attempted.

    But the user was obviously confusing device messages with messages from the service provider responding with txts, and obviously wasn't editing the contacts right when trying to correct them the first time because later they finally mention going to the Contacts app. All of this would have been avoided to begin with if the wife had edited the number in the Contacts app to begin with instead of god knows where she was doing it.

    Oh the messaging app doesn't require an area code either or millions of people would freak out when they want to vote on American Idol or some of those other low digit text things that show up on TV. So it isn't an app reporting the issue it was her network!!!!!
    Last edited by lnichols; 06-14-11 at 04:11 PM.
    06-14-11 04:03 PM
  14. mjs416's Avatar
    For the record, I'm the OP. And I agree with Rollingrock on his assessment of your posts.

    - R.
    So would you both like a hug?


    If an app requires something be done a certain way in another app, yes, I expect that if the apps are supposed to be integrated, warnings will be created to ensure that takes place. It's as simple as that.
    Yes it is simple. But the bottom line is if she would have entered the numbers correctly in the first place it wouldnt have kicked her a system / network error.
    06-14-11 04:15 PM
  15. CGI's Avatar
    As an owner of an Android device and a Blackberry 9780... and having an equal but different affection for what both do well...

    I thought the article was well done. I thought it was accurate on most if not all points.

    Combined with market share data and the data in that article; you have to have blinders on not to see that RIM finds itself in a pickle right now. Its going to be fun to see how this plays out.

    I think RIM will make it. But, I don't think they've hit bottom yet.
    06-14-11 04:50 PM
  16. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    I'll toss in my analysis of RIM. I've seen them aquire some outstanding companies over the past year. I've also seen a company with vision, but no speed/proficiency at turning out good hardware/software combinations. It's no secret that there has never been a team effort to building the OS. Rather it appears there are department responsible for modules, then G_d knows who puts it all together. That has gotten them by farly well, till OS5, and much more complicated features to integrate. Toss into the mix all the new software companies, and untill they recognize the need for it all to gel smoothly, there will be growing pains.

    My experience dealing directly with them, and one of the fantastic features, auto text, showed me just how little they understand their own consumers, what changes in software do to their end product, or how to think enough outside the box to fix them.

    I still believe in RIM, and pray over the course of the next year, the combination of improved hardware, along with Highlander will bring them back to the top. When it comes to communication, which is after all the primary function and focus, they still lead the market. Android and Apple are making inroads, but when the next gen of BlackBerries come out, my bet is on them being placed in the backseat again, working hard to catch back up.
    06-14-11 06:42 PM
  17. Fuzzballz's Avatar
    When your CEO is saying stuff like this...

    -------
    "There's tremendous turbulence in the ecosystem, of course, in mobility. And that's sort of an obvious thing, but also there is tremendous architectural contention at play. And I'm going to really frame our mobile architectural distinction. We've taken two fundamentally different approaches in their causalness. It's a causal difference, not just nuance. It's not just a causal direction that I'm going to really articulate here -- and feel free to go as deep as you want -- it's really as fundamental as causalness."
    -------

    ...you know you've got problems.
    06-14-11 07:19 PM
  18. qbnkelt's Avatar
    CEOs are poor spokepersons. Jobs is a rarity.
    06-15-11 08:03 AM
  19. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Yes I did, here is the section in question:



    Just as a test, I added a contact with a 7 digit number to my contacts name "Test". I then went in and did some of the things mentioned above. If I send a txt to Test, the mobile network sends me a response txt back from 9230 stating "Message sent using invalid number of digits. Please resend using 10 digit number or valid short code. Msg 2114". I would imagine that the network his wife was using sent something similar, and she thought it was the phone telling her this, but it was really the network. The phone is not complaining about the digits, the mobile network is.

    Now if you try to dial the 10 digit number directly, in but still have the conversation to "Test" that didn't work in there it will try to send it again to the 7 digit number and the network will respond with same message. This is probably poor function of the app in that function. I delete the conversation that doesn't work and then try to send to the 10 digit number and it goes through, so the txt would have worked without the previous poor conversation being attempted.

    But the user was obviously confusing device messages with messages from the service provider responding with txts, and obviously wasn't editing the contacts right when trying to correct them the first time because later they finally mention going to the Contacts app. All of this would have been avoided to begin with if the wife had edited the number in the Contacts app to begin with instead of god knows where she was doing it.

    Oh the messaging app doesn't require an area code either or millions of people would freak out when they want to vote on American Idol or some of those other low digit text things that show up on TV. So it isn't an app reporting the issue it was her network!!!!!
    You are on my list of forum people on whom I have a serious crush..along with dR and a couple of mods....
    06-15-11 08:07 AM
  20. qbnkelt's Avatar
    I'll toss in my analysis of RIM. I've seen them aquire some outstanding companies over the past year. I've also seen a company with vision, but no speed/proficiency at turning out good hardware/software combinations. It's no secret that there has never been a team effort to building the OS. Rather it appears there are department responsible for modules, then G_d knows who puts it all together. That has gotten them by farly well, till OS5, and much more complicated features to integrate. Toss into the mix all the new software companies, and untill they recognize the need for it all to gel smoothly, there will be growing pains.

    My experience dealing directly with them, and one of the fantastic features, auto text, showed me just how little they understand their own consumers, what changes in software do to their end product, or how to think enough outside the box to fix them.

    I still believe in RIM, and pray over the course of the next year, the combination of improved hardware, along with Highlander will bring them back to the top. When it comes to communication, which is after all the primary function and focus, they still lead the market. Android and Apple are making inroads, but when the next gen of BlackBerries come out, my bet is on them being placed in the backseat again, working hard to catch back up.

    On these underlined parts we are of a mind.

    I wonder about the last sentence, though. In the business sector yes....in the consumer.....well.....I think that there is enough interest in flash (no pun intended) to have other platforms retain advantage. Apple, with its built in, hard core fan base, is almost unstoppable. Android seems to have amongst its fans the group that in years past went for over muscled cars...they now go for overmuscled phones. Not saying everyone, just a segment. That segment I think will remain with the biggest badass specs out there, regardless of actual usability. Again, not saying everyone, just the segment that looks at a spec sheet to compensate for...em...um...other deficiencies.
    Last edited by Qbnkelt; 06-15-11 at 10:51 AM.
    06-15-11 10:23 AM
  21. BigBadWulf's Avatar
    On these underlined parts we are of a mind.

    I wonder about the last sentence, though. In the business sector yes....in the consumer.....well.....I think that there is enough interest in flash (no pun intended) to have other platforms retain advantage.
    While flash is nice, and promised in the RIM future, it's not something I run into often enough to change platforms for. Bolt will handle most anything that native won't. I don't think I've ever found myself feeling inadequate because I didn't have flash.

    Apple, with its built in, hard core fan base, is almost unstoppable.
    They have a base of fans that will stick with them, no matter what. That's , since the 4G the only real negative has been continued signal quality issues. A touch-only phone is not my bag, but for a lot of folks it's the cat's meow. I also like playing with my OS a lot, which leads us to...

    Android seems to have amongst its fans the group that in years past went for over muscled cars...they now go for overmuscled phones. Not saying everyone, just a segment. That segment I think will remain with the biggest badass specs out there, regardless of actual usability. Again, not saying everyone, just the segment that looks at a spec sheet to compensate for...em...um...other deficiencies.
    [/color][/b]You hit the nail on the head here, and their attitude when posting (no, not all of you ) shows it. They have a plethora of phones to choose from, though I'd be hard pressed to distinguish between most of them. Specs aside, if you get the right OS on your BlackBerry, even my lowly 9650 with it's processor manages to compete rather well. The upcoming devices won't make them quiver on paper, but side by side I'll bet the story will be different.

    The best part of all this, is I have friends on all the platforms, and respect their choices one and all. There is no best phone, and never will bepeople have differeent needs, and making a wise consumer decision to pick what suits theirs best is what it's all about. The need to beat down other formats, in my eyes only only serves to highlight the insecurity they feel about the choice they've made. It's just like religion. If you feel secure in your own beliefs, you can debate them with someone completely different values, without belittling theirs, and have a pleasurable experience doing it, while both learning in the process. These "RIM is/will be dead" threads are silly emotional BS. Look at the comeback WebOS is having, and we'll see them skyrocket when the new HP tablet arrives. It's nice to see them back in the game. Unlike football, there seems to always be another quarter left to play. [/color][/b]
    grover5 likes this.
    06-15-11 07:49 PM
  22. Branta's Avatar
    The messaging app requires area code, and the contacts app doesn't - but no warning is provided - poor design.
    You are struggling against reality here, neither app "requires" contact numbers in a specific format. to do so would be irrational and restrictive to users with international contacts and short code entries. Oh I forgot... everyone in the world is supposed to use US formats and standards.

    This is simply another case of Stoopid Murcan User got it wrong and blamed non-US designed equipment. Duhhhh
    06-16-11 06:14 AM
  23. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Oooo, Branta...got me smiling this morning!
    My two fave mods on one thread!

    Very true, international calls could not be made with that design.

    Now...if the OS could recognise a specific number scheme required for a country listed in a contact's profile it could prevent misdials.

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    06-16-11 06:40 AM
  24. qbnkelt's Avatar
    Wulf - REALLY like you religion analogy. Acepting that others may have different needs would go a long way towards resolving a lot of issues...whether religion, sexual orientation, phone wars, training styles, whatever.
    No need to impose a personal preference and imply that whoever doesn't agree with personal preferences and choices are lacking.
    That's where I lose it. (And I've been trying to be good!!!)

    Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com
    06-16-11 06:51 AM
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