1. hurds's Avatar
    So the firefox phone is out. I just watch a video and it seems to have apps on demand (apps being webpages, we are coming full circle). They are selling devices. This phone has the potential to cause a lot of disruption. I think its great for competition and hopefully HTML5 development really picks up. I believe theres already more developers for HTML than any closed system anyways.

    How can this affect things? Well its sure to cause a lot of problems for companies who have been built upon closed app stores. The way I see it is that closed systems in time eventually fail. History tells us that. So why does 'input' matter? If you look at all the mobile devices/OSes out there I really don't feel anyone puts even half the effort BB does into thinking about how users interact and input information. The other devices/OSes seem to be aimed far more at consumption. Which is fine, but for many input is really important. Its why people still buy phones with physical keyboards. Its why the Z10 keyboard is being praised. So I see this as a big benefit to BBs. A differentiator. If/when the playing field becomes more level as far as app catalogues or perceived app necessity (even if HTML5 doesn't catch on, although I feel it will, BBs catalogue will still continue to grow) other factors are going to become more important. Input will become more important and I don't see anyone doing it better than BB. I will say though it would be nice to see some trackpad type innovation. Google patented I think a trackpad on the back.
    KDB84 likes this.
    04-25-13 12:30 PM
  2. anon(153966)'s Avatar
    I do think that designers and the likes need to simply make all websites mobile based. Doing so would allow the consumer to use said 'app' on ANY device. Currently it is a sad state of affairs where certain 'major' apps are not yet available on BlackBerry. Now of course if said apps we really 'web connections', we wouldn't have this problem.

    Just saying...
    TgeekB likes this.
    04-26-13 07:07 AM
  3. zehkaiser's Avatar
    If I'm mistaken, correct me; Didn't Google say anyone can use technology they've patented as long as they don't attack Google?

    Posted via CB10
    04-27-13 03:55 PM
  4. notfanboy's Avatar
    The way I see it is that closed systems in time eventually fail. History tells us that.
    Does this rule apply to Blackberry as well? Or do you want to make it an exception?
    04-27-13 05:06 PM
  5. filmgirl's Avatar
    If I'm mistaken, correct me; Didn't Google say anyone can use technology they've patented as long as they don't attack Google?

    Posted via CB10
    That only applies to MapReduce, which is a model for programming large datasets. Basically all it has done this far is indemnify the Apache project's Hadoop framework. This wouldn't be relevant to the viability of web apps at all.

    Google says it'll have a a won't sue policy for other patented stuff but what it will be and when it will get that status is unknown.
    04-27-13 07:41 PM
  6. filmgirl's Avatar
    I do think that designers and the likes need to simply make all websites mobile based. Doing so would allow the consumer to use said 'app' on ANY device. Currently it is a sad state of affairs where certain 'major' apps are not yet available on BlackBerry. Now of course if said apps we really 'web connections', we wouldn't have this problem.

    Just saying...
    The problem is HTML5 and mobile implementations of HTML5 aren't good enough to truly compete with native programming. That doesn't mean that wont happen but right now writing native code makes it not only faster but easier to debug. The debugging issue is actually a major one because we don't have tools to debug HTML5 apps at this point. That was one or the reasons LinkedIn refactored its iOS app as native (And they'll do it for Android too) and it contributed used to Facebook's decision to rebuild iOS and Android as native.

    Even Google, a company that built itself in part on the idea of building powerful web apps, builds native apps for its key tools on mobile: mail, maps, docs (Quickoffice acquisition), photo editing (Snapseeed acquisition) and even Google+ and YouTube.

    A basic shopping app or news app can work as a mobile web app, no problem, but when you need to load lots of data, do notifications and handle multithreaded processes, especially when your hardware is cheap and lowend line Firefox's is, the experience will never live up to native.

    And since I've actually used a Firefox Phone, I feel confident in expressing that opinion.

    The promise of the web taking over the need for mobile is something that we've been sold since the early days of Java. The reality is that write once run everywhere will never compete with native solutions for anything but a subset of simple apps.

    We've already seen the Firefox OS movie. It was called webOS. It tanked. Firefox on mobile is being primarily sold as a cheap carrier-friendly solution for emerging markets. The problem is, what happens in 18 months when today's high-end hardware is just as cheap as what they are using AND capable of running native apps. What happens then?

    Targeting a low-end market for a platform is always going to be a big risk because at some point, a phone that does the real thing will be able to compete. And unless carriers absolutely refuse to sell those phones, I don't see this taking off.
    04-27-13 07:55 PM
  7. notfanboy's Avatar
    . So why does 'input' matter? If you look at all the mobile devices/OSes out there I really don't feel anyone puts even half the effort BB does into thinking about how users interact and input information. The other devices/OSes seem to be aimed far more at consumption. Which is fine, but for many input is really important. Its why people still buy phones with physical keyboards. Its why the Z10 keyboard is being praised. So I see this as a big benefit to BBs. A differentiator. If/when the playing field becomes more level as far as app catalogues or perceived app necessity (even if HTML5 doesn't catch on, although I feel it will, BBs catalogue will still continue to grow) other factors are going to become more important. Input will become more important and I don't see anyone doing it better than BB. I will say though it would be nice to see some trackpad type innovation. Google patented I think a trackpad on the back.
    The bolded part is categorically untrue though. You're thinking only of the keyboard when it comes to inputting information. This narrow view is a result of focusing on one manufacturer not looking at the larger mobile landscape.

    The Z10 keyboard is great, however after three weeks of use, I have not reached half the efficiency that I have with Swiftkey swiping. I do think that the Z10 keyboard is better for beginners than Swiftkey with swipe. The latter isn't for everyone, specially if you don't have the qwerty layout internalized. Typing on the Z10 has a huge Achilles heel though, I'm talking about cursor positioning and selection. For a true measure of typing efficiency, you have to include the parts where you go back and edit what you wrote. The frustrations around cursor selection reduces efficiency quite a bit.

    Z10 with BT keyboard and mouse. Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V doesn't work. The mouse scroll wheel doesn't work. The mouse doesn't work at all in some apps.

    Now let's talk about the other ways of inputting information which other mobile OS's have. Typing is only one way of getting information on the phone. Here are some other innovations.

    Voice control as provided by Siri, Google voice search and voice actions. I can check for flight statuses, send a text to a fellow traveler, and set a reminder for when I need to leave for the airport. I made a video where this was accomplished in about 15 seconds. Now that is a typical "input" problem which will take lots of steps on BB10.

    There's stylus input for drawing as provided by Samsung's S Pen.

    Synchronization of input across devices. I can access my browser bookmarks and open tabs from any device. Chrome has automatic form filling and password synchronization across devices, a big time saver.

    Here's another one, predictive input as provided by Google Now. Why even input something again if I already input it once before? I search for a restaurant using Google maps on the desktop. I get a Google Now card on the phone showing how long it will take to get there. Same with flight information. The phone knows I've just landed in another city/country and it shows me the currency rate, local time and weather, nearby places of interest and photo spots.

    Visual search and camera input. Not very many people know about this. You're in another country and you point your camera at some unfamiliar language. It translates it for you - this is very cool and I have found it useful.

    So I disagree with you that other companies don't even put half the effort that BB does in the area of input. The situation is quite the opposite.
    pantlesspenguin and mikeo007 like this.
    04-28-13 08:45 AM
  8. BlackBerry Guy's Avatar
    I'm curious to see how this would go. Native mobile apps pre-date the smartphone and have been around in one for or another since the old Palm OS and Windows Mobile PDA days. In 2007 when the iPhone launched, Apple pushed the idea of web app development, which wasn't all that warmly received by devs. Of course a year later, a native SDK was released, the App Store was born and the rest is history.

    The concept of web apps, much like native apps, is nothing new. The mobile landscape was very different 6 years ago though, so like I said, I'm curious to see if it'll gain more traction this time around.
    pantlesspenguin likes this.
    04-28-13 10:32 AM
  9. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    People that don't understand the importance of full-fledged, full-featured apps make the Baby Jesus cry. Filmgirl said it well. Allow me to do a demonstration.

    Take photobucket for instance. Load up the mobile site and you get inundated with a video ad that you have to wait for or get out of in order to use the site.



    Then I get to the site. I don't find anyplace to simply upload a pic and grab the link for it, so I go searching.

    Mobile site home. I just want to upload a pic!



    After poking around in the SETTINGS, I find that I have to send an email of the picture to photobucket and they add it to my library. What's up with that crap?

    In the app, you launch it, you click upload media, and once it's done uploading you grab the link. Boom. Done.



    Also, I might be doing something wrong on the iPod and I can't find this feature, but on Android at least, once you have the photobucket app loaded you can upload right to photobucket from your phone's photo gallery. Take a pic, click share, select photobucket, boom. The app just became an extension of your phone's capability. You didn't even have to open the app.

    Take my 24 Hour Fitness app.



    Spiffy, huh? I never had to sign into it, and it knew my location. Trying the mobile site, you had to click several things for it to know where you are. Also, here's something neat that the app can do that the mobile site can't:

    I can view the classes by time

    null_zps438870b1.png Photo by impychick | Photobucket

    Instructor



    Or class



    On the mobile site you get a static grid



    A great point that filmgirl brought up was notifications.



    See those red circles I have next to a couple apps? Those indicate that I have matters to attend to. When I get them, my phone makes a sound and they appear in the notification tray. On my blackberry they make the red blinky light go off. Can a mobile app do that?

    Also, another importance of push notifications



    I can make it notify me when a big scary tornado is about to come take me to Oz. If you live in Tornado Alley, you know how quickly storms can turn violent. You can be glued to your phone monitoring the weather, or you could go about your business and let your phone alert you when you need to take cover.

    Then there are GPS apps. I don't need to post screenies, I'm sure you've all seen them. The Waze port is really popular on the Z10 right now, as it should be! I also use sports tracking apps when I take hikes or bike rides. They show my location, speed, distance traveled, and even things like current weather, sunrise and sunset for that day, etc. Find me a mobile site that can do that.

    I could go on and on. I'm really passionate about this. The more people stick their fingers in their ears and run around screaming "APPS ARE STUUUUUPID!!!!!!" then the longer I'm afraid it'll take the ones in charge to realize no, no they're not. Apps are crucial.
    04-28-13 12:46 PM
  10. notfanboy's Avatar
    filmgirl made a compelling argument and pantless illustrated it nicely.

    There have been many posts like the OPs, and I see them as a way to rationalize away the app advantage that iOS and Android have over BB. While it is true that web apps are slowly gaining traction, it's doesn't come close to replacing the need for apps except for a small niche of users. (I'm rooting for the idea of the Chromebook and Firefox OS but realize that it's not about to replace my PC/MacBook any time soon. )

    There are two obstacles, one technical and one economic and both appear insurmountable. HTML based apps just can't do everything that a native app does. And because of this, market competition will drive out HTML based apps. Imagine some developer manages to write an HTML5 based Instagram app. They put it up on the App Store and the Play Store. What do you think will happen? It will soon get an average rating of 3.5 stars and sink into irrelevance. Why go after the mediocre app when you can get the best app?

    The mediocre app can only succeed in monopoly type situations. For example banking apps where there is no alternative.

    And my final point. You will often see that the very same posters for argue that html5 based apps will make native apps obsolete - you'd find these poster in some other threads extolling the virtues of cascades, peek and flow, and the transcendent notifications of the BB10 hub.
    04-28-13 03:11 PM
  11. FunGuyLover's Avatar
    Both data and processing are moving to the cloud. The only time a native app is necessary is when no connection is available, and there are ways of coding around even that.

    I think the pendulum may swing back.

    Posted via CB10
    04-28-13 03:44 PM
  12. hurds's Avatar
    I guess relevancy is a big key thing here.

    How many people input using a keyboard?

    How many use these other types of input?


    Im amazed people actually argue the other platforms care about this. You think google or apple cares about input? These companies are about consuming.



    I apologize to the people who get upset about my views on HTML5. I know you have a lot invested into your apps and your app-focused systems. Its just the reality is for the average user in the world, apps just don't mean that much. This even goes for people in North America. Talk to enough people and you'll realize that these apps you love so much, and just how deeply integrated, or whatever snazy things they do, just don't matter to the average user. Every single Q10 sale will be a testament to that. I'll agree, its great what native apps can do, and they have their benefits, but you are in the minority. You just don't realise it. Every single forum member here is in the minority and not even close to representative of the average NA user. People fail to realise this and project their views/values onto others.
    04-28-13 08:30 PM
  13. hurds's Avatar
    HTML5 will make native apps aside from those provided by any decen operating sysem obsolete and seem ancient, archaic and unecessary except for niche needs.



    The title change missed the point of the thread though.

    BB owns input. The other companies do it as an afterthough. They would rather their users consume more and produce less. Thats a fact. Ignore it, deny it, spin it to fit you beliefs. Its the truth.
    04-28-13 08:40 PM
  14. hurds's Avatar
    Heres something that can't be argued.

    Although I'm sure some people will try and make up some illogical longwinded counter.

    Why don't the other big boys produce a half-decent physical keyboard device? And for one platform, even the possibility of one? I could go one and on but i'll stop. Cause I know its pointless.
    04-28-13 08:46 PM
  15. pantlesspenguin's Avatar
    Heres something that can't be argued.

    Although I'm sure some people will try and make up some illogical longwinded counter.

    Why don't the other big boys produce a half-decent physical keyboard device? And for one platform, even the possibility of one? I could go one and on but i'll stop. Cause I know its pointless.
    Why don't the other big boys produce a half-decent physical keyboard? Because the majority have moved on. It's like asking why someone isn't trying to produce a top-notch VCR. Now the game is producing the best virtual keyboard. I think BBRY has definitely succeeded in that. It's the best stock keyboard on any device that I've used. But take Android for example. They have 2-3 keyboard OPTIONS out of the box so you can tailor your typing experience to work the best for you. Typically it's the stock manufacturer keyboard and another good keyboard like Swype. I hear that some phones even have SwiftKey preloaded, but I can't verify that. BBRY put their own unique touches on the SwiftKey software and produced an amazing result. But anyone who's used SwiftKey for any period of time will recognize it's SwiftKey at the core. It has the same functions like the heat map, swipe to delete, and recognizing patterns in your speech by scanning your emails, contacts, etc. It can tell when you've made a typo like hitting letters around the space bar or forgotten a space and knows to separate your words. People using Android have been enjoying this for years. BBRY has improved this, but it's not without it's own faults. Like, when I'm swiping up on letters at the bottom of the screen, a lot of the time I'll swipe out of the window and it goes to the home screen. I think that's half user error, and half an improvement that BBRY could make to the keyboard with recognizing when the user is trying to swipe up on a letter versus swiping out of the window.

    As far as apps, luckily BBRY disagrees with you. They know that users want to share information to any number of programs that they might use. When I hit "share" in a website, these are the sharing options I'm given:



    If just using the web was soooooo important, wouldn't they think that keeping information within the web is good enough? And as you can see, it's combining the stock apps loaded onto the Z10 as well as apps I've downloaded from BBW.

    Whether you like it or not, smartphones are evolving to become all-in-one mobile computing devices. Think about desktops. They run apps too, but they're referred to as programs. Think about the Microsoft Office suite, for example. You purchase the CD, you load the software onto your computer, and you launch the program and create Word documents, PowerPoint presentations, Excel Spreadsheets, etc. With APPS like Docs to Go, you can have the same capabilities on your smartphone.

    Apps also replace the need for stand-alone devices. You don't need a separate iPod if you have a great music player app that categorizes all your music, creates playlist, has a sound equalizer, easy controls, etc. You don't need a separate digital camera if you have a great camera app that takes amazing pictures/video, edit and add effects to photos, eliminate red-eye, take panoramic shots, easy sharing, etc. You don't need a separate GPS unit if you have an app that provides detailed maps and navigation straight from your phone.

    You really don't use any of these things on your phone? You don't want to expand the capabilities of your phone or seek out ways to increase your productivity when you're not sitting in front of a computer? Then maybe smartphones just aren't your thing.
    04-28-13 10:35 PM
  16. notfanboy's Avatar
    HTML5 will make native apps aside from those provided by any decen operating sysem obsolete and seem ancient, archaic and unecessary except for niche needs.
    Now that BBM is going cross-platform, it is a perfect opportunity to put OP's theories to the test.

    I wonder how OP thinks BBM for iOS and Android s going to be implemented. Will it be Native or html5? It should be html5 should it not? BBM isn't a niche need, is it?

    Why not html5? BB only has to write the app one time versus three times, and it will work with iOS and Android. And as a bonus, they have a desktop and laptop solution as well, and as well as support for Windows Phone, Firefox, Ubuntu phone, and Tizen!
    mikeo007 and MobileMadness002 like this.
    06-06-13 08:09 PM
  17. hurds's Avatar
    haha omgawd,

    cause those platforms are really pushing HTML5 and not trying to support their closed apps systems. You need to learn how to properly test theories. This is a fail on all accounts. Sooooo BB is somehow supposed to build an app for the duopoly who are laggards in HTML5 development? lulz

    Plus, its a messaging 'application'. Not a measly 'app'.

    Who knows, maybe it is, but if it isn't whose to blame?

    Gotta love the people who don't wont mass adoption of a cross-platform app environment. Yup, consumers want choice, as long as it android or ios!!! lulz

    Maybe it'll be android runtime.
    06-07-13 10:22 AM

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