10-29-10 09:31 AM
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  1. grahamf's Avatar

    CANADA'S Research In Motion has fired back at Apple's Steve Jobs over his claims that the iPhone is outselling the Blackberry and that 7-inch tablet computers have no future.
    "We think many customers are getting tired of being told what to think by Apple," RIM co-chief executive Jim Balsillie said in a blog post responding to the comments made on Monday by Jobs.
    Jobs, speaking to financial analysts during a conference call, dismissed 7-inch tablets as "tweeners" saying they were "too big to compete with a smartphone and too small to compete with an iPad".
    He suggested makers of 7-inch screens "include sandpaper so users can sand down their fingers" to be able to tap onscreen keys.
    Addressing concerns that the iPad had missed it 4.8 million unit target by nearly 20 per cent, selling 4.1 million units, Jobs seemed to lay the blame at the feet of rival tablet makers for not quickly bringing worthy products to markets.
    Balsillie was not impressed.
    "For those of us who live outside of Apple's distortion field, we know that seven-inch tablets will actually be a big portion of the market," Balsillie said.
    Interesting.
    10-21-10 11:38 AM
  2. avt123's Avatar
    I'm surprised this wasn't posted already, I believe this came out 2 days ago (Balsillie's actual response). I do agree with him that 7 inch tablets are not too small. But, on the other hand, Apple does a good job with the consumer IMO, and that's why every single iPhone has the highest consumer satisfaction rating out of any smartphone.
    10-21-10 11:49 AM
  3. tumer's Avatar
    it was posted it was on the front page
    10-21-10 12:12 PM
  4. corymcnutt's Avatar
    I'm surprised this wasn't posted already, I believe this came out 2 days ago (Balsillie's actual response). I do agree with him that 7 inch tablets are not too small. But, on the other hand, Apple does a good job with the consumer IMO, and that's why every single iPhone has the highest consumer satisfaction rating out of any smartphone.
    I'm not sure what this posting has to do with the iPhone...but I too agree that there is a very large market for a 7" tablet; is it only double the size of what some phone's screens are? Yes. But still a very convenient size for carrying to work or school.
    10-21-10 12:12 PM
  5. avt123's Avatar
    it was posted it was on the front page
    I know, I meant in this forum.
    10-21-10 12:21 PM
  6. avt123's Avatar
    I'm not sure what this posting has to do with the iPhone...but I too agree that there is a very large market for a 7" tablet; is it only double the size of what some phone's screens are? Yes. But still a very convenient size for carrying to work or school.
    I was just using the iPhone as an example of Apples consumer success. He says "We think many customers are getting tired of being told what to think by Apple", and all I'm saying is obviously a lot are not (that is why I linked the iPhone to consumer success).

    I personally do not lie being told what I should want/like/need by Steve Jobs, but it seems like a ton could care less. Also, the majority of them probably do not read blogs or tech news sites so they will never read Steve Job's comments.
    10-21-10 12:24 PM
  7. grahamf's Avatar
    I was referring to the innuendo in the original article's title.
    10-21-10 12:26 PM
  8. avt123's Avatar
    I was referring to the innuendo in the original article's title.
    Someone wants a 7'' RIM Jobs?
    10-21-10 12:41 PM
  9. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I was just using the iPhone as an example of Apples consumer success. He says "We think many customers are getting tired of being told what to think by Apple", and all I'm saying is obviously a lot are not (that is why I linked the iPhone to consumer success).

    I personally do not lie being told what I should want/like/need by Steve Jobs, but it seems like a ton could care less. Also, the majority of them probably do not read blogs or tech news sites so they will never read Steve Job's comments.
    I suspect MANY consumers who have the iPhone are users who never had another smartphone before so their satisfaction rating is based on getting something amazing compared to what they had before.
    I'm not saying it is a bad device, but the highest customer satisfaction is largely based on naivety.

    I know people who absolutely love everything about their Storms, and think they are the best phones ever, but they are also the first smartphone they ever owned and they never read blogs and stuff so they don't see how much of a screw up the phone was. that is naivety, and Apple is a professional at selling the the mindless drones.
    10-21-10 01:09 PM
  10. Rooster99's Avatar
    I suspect MANY consumers who have the iPhone are users who never had another smartphone before so their satisfaction rating is based on getting something amazing compared to what they had before.
    I'm not saying it is a bad device, but the highest customer satisfaction is largely based on naivety.

    I know people who absolutely love everything about their Storms, and think they are the best phones ever, but they are also the first smartphone they ever owned and they never read blogs and stuff so they don't see how much of a screw up the phone was. that is naivety, and Apple is a professional at selling the the mindless drones.
    I think there's a just a little RIM arrogance in this comment.

    My brother-in-law just went iPhone and loves it - and he's a techie. He describes the iPhone as an "appliance" - limited flexibility compared to Android and Berry, but he traded that off for smooth operation and reliability. Think of it another way - I'm not happy that my PVR doesn't allow me to archive stuff to an external hard drive, but it doesn't, and I'm not up in arms towards Motorola because of that. Why? Because it's an appliance. I have other very technical friends who also went iPhone, and have also gone PC to Mac. They went Mac because they got tired of messing about with win.ini and autoexec.bat files (or the modern equivalent) to tweak things - they have other areas of their lives to spend time on and are willing to accept a more simplified, "appliance" approach.

    They are hardly "mindless drones".

    As long as an appliance does what is desired, consumers will buy it - and be happy with their choice. And please note the use of the word "choice" - that implies decision making capability. Again, hardly "mindless".

    Is it really consumer naivete that gives the iPhone high customer sat ratings? Or consumer choice? I think the latter.

    - R.
    10-21-10 01:33 PM
  11. avt123's Avatar
    I suspect MANY consumers who have the iPhone are users who never had another smartphone before so their satisfaction rating is based on getting something amazing compared to what they had before.
    I'm not saying it is a bad device, but the highest customer satisfaction is largely based on naivety.

    I know people who absolutely love everything about their Storms, and think they are the best phones ever, but they are also the first smartphone they ever owned and they never read blogs and stuff so they don't see how much of a screw up the phone was. that is naivety, and Apple is a professional at selling the the mindless drones.
    Agreed, this may also be the case. I do know a lot of people who converted to the iPhone (from other smartphones) and couldn't be happier. The OS is just so simple and easy to use, that' s why I see it winning all the time. I like Android and some features of BB OS better, but iOS is silky smooth. No other mobile platform to date feels that way out of the box. My DX is very fast and when I had my 9000/9700 it was pretty fast as well, but Apple knows how to polish their software very well. That being said I would still rather own an Android and possibly a QNX BB (looks nice so far but need to see more), even webOS 2.0. iOS has too many restrictions I do not like, even though jailbreaking changes everything. But I chose a device for out of box functionality first, hacking (if necessary) second. I owned a 3G and 3GS, they worked wonderfully but I needed something else.
    10-21-10 01:37 PM
  12. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    I think there's a just a little RIM arrogance in this comment.
    There should be, given the massive amount of arrogance in Apple's statement...
    10-21-10 02:21 PM
  13. JRSCCivic98's Avatar
    I think there's a just a little RIM arrogance in this comment.

    My brother-in-law just went iPhone and loves it - and he's a techie. He describes the iPhone as an "appliance" - limited flexibility compared to Android and Berry, but he traded that off for smooth operation and reliability. Think of it another way - I'm not happy that my PVR doesn't allow me to archive stuff to an external hard drive, but it doesn't, and I'm not up in arms towards Motorola because of that. Why? Because it's an appliance. I have other very technical friends who also went iPhone, and have also gone PC to Mac. They went Mac because they got tired of messing about with win.ini and autoexec.bat files (or the modern equivalent) to tweak things - they have other areas of their lives to spend time on and are willing to accept a more simplified, "appliance" approach.

    They are hardly "mindless drones".

    As long as an appliance does what is desired, consumers will buy it - and be happy with their choice. And please note the use of the word "choice" - that implies decision making capability. Again, hardly "mindless".

    Is it really consumer naivete that gives the iPhone high customer sat ratings? Or consumer choice? I think the latter.

    - R.
    See, I'm completely opposite of that. If I buy something, I want it even more if it can do more then what's advertised if I can hack it. I can do more stuff with a PC (regular PC work, change drives to mess with Linux, run car flashing utils, etc.) I can't do that with a Mac (as easily). Also, I feel like my hands are tied when it comes to using a BB. With an iPhone or Android device I could jailbreak/root the device and remove the shackles the manufacturer put on it and really be free to do whatever. To me, this is what makes a device great. In the past, I didn't buy a PSP because I could play PSP games on it. I bought it because I could run Custom Firmware on it and play anything from old NES games to new PSP ones to even PC games on it. That's what made me want to spend the money on that device. I wish more companies saw things this way, but they don't... and that'll be their downfall. More people want multi-taskers in products these days, whether they realize it or not.

    Ask yourself this... What's better, a PC or a Mac? Why not a device that can do both? Sure, Mac tries to do this somewhat, but it's not as seamless as it could be (because Jobs is being a dik about it) and in the end, less people buy the device because they don't have an easy transition means.
    10-21-10 02:31 PM
  14. Rooster99's Avatar
    See, I'm completely opposite of that. ... I wish more companies saw things this way, but they don't... and that'll be their downfall. More people want multi-taskers in products these days, whether they realize it or not. ...
    I'm in line with you, but not as much as I had been when I was younger. I still love flexibility, but at what cost? Reliability? Smooth operation? devotion of time to hacking? A "requirement" that a device be hacked to really deliver (see also Berry OS leaks).

    Again, think of the appliance approach - people buy them so they can forget them and do other things. They just ... work. Reliably, smoothly, and well. Time is our most precious commodity - anything that eats time is not welcomed by most people. People will give up flexibility to buy time. Companies that realize that are winners - sorry, they're not going to be facing their downfall.

    Civic, people like you - and to a degree, myself - are in the minority. And it's a conscious choice on their part. They're not mindless, as the other poster described them.

    - R.
    10-21-10 03:24 PM
  15. Rooster99's Avatar
    There should be, given the massive amount of arrogance in Apple's statement...
    Arrogance in response to arrogance? Sorry, but that's hardly a winning strategy.

    Being stupid in response to stupidity doesn't gain you anything. And arrogance isn't smart.

    - R.
    10-21-10 03:26 PM
  16. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    I think there's a just a little RIM arrogance in this comment.

    My brother-in-law just went iPhone and loves it - and he's a techie. He describes the iPhone as an "appliance" - limited flexibility compared to Android and Berry, but he traded that off for smooth operation and reliability. Think of it another way - I'm not happy that my PVR doesn't allow me to archive stuff to an external hard drive, but it doesn't, and I'm not up in arms towards Motorola because of that. Why? Because it's an appliance. I have other very technical friends who also went iPhone, and have also gone PC to Mac. They went Mac because they got tired of messing about with win.ini and autoexec.bat files (or the modern equivalent) to tweak things - they have other areas of their lives to spend time on and are willing to accept a more simplified, "appliance" approach.

    They are hardly "mindless drones".

    As long as an appliance does what is desired, consumers will buy it - and be happy with their choice. And please note the use of the word "choice" - that implies decision making capability. Again, hardly "mindless".

    Is it really consumer naivete that gives the iPhone high customer sat ratings? Or consumer choice? I think the latter.

    - R.
    I am NOT saying that other people can't love it, I'm saying that it having such an extremely high satisfaction rate when there are problems with it, is most likely a result of consumer naivety, you are LOOKING for the arrogance, the iPhone was a Consumer device turned phone, there are still MANY original iphones in Circulation, because the consumer drone that jumped at the iPod touch saw they could have a phone added to it and YAA! I'm excited, The people that flocked to the iPod were drones, the iPod was NOT the best MP3 player, it wasn't even in the top 10 MP3 players when it was launched, BUT it was the only MP3 player with a Multi million dollar advertising budget, so the Sheeple went to it, Apple said it was good on TV, if TV says it, it must be great!

    Many Very intelligent people use Macs, and made decisions based on needs, but because 1 person is a techie does not reflect the mob of Apple fan's Every platform has them but Apple has more because they attracted them using advertising more so than a quality product, then you saw quality products just fall off the map as they couldn't compete with the Apple Machine,

    IF a customer has never tried the competition how can they give a valid rating of performance and quality? they are giving the rating based on having tried one product, The Difference of Rating between what I would give to Windows 7, and say my 11 Year old Cousin who really only knows Windows 7 even though both of us really like it, I would not give it as high of rating as some features of Mac I wish Win7 Had, and some features of Linux I would like to see in Win7 so I identify the flaws.
    10-21-10 06:02 PM
  17. Rooster99's Avatar
    1) I'm saying that it having such an extremely high satisfaction rate when there are problems with it, is most likely a result of consumer naivety

    2) you are LOOKING for the arrogance

    3) the consumer drone that jumped at the iPod touch

    4) the people that flocked to the iPod were drones

    5) the Sheeple went to it

    6) IF a customer has never tried the competition how can they give a valid rating of performance and quality?
    1) Not necessarily; It means they're happy with it - there may be problems, but it still satisfies their needs sufficiently that they're happy (ex - I haven't driven every car out there, but I am still very satisfied with the one I own despite a slight wind noise in the sunroof at high speeds, and I am NOT a naive purchaser or user)

    2) I am not looking for the arrogance - "drones", "mindless", and "sheeple" are all extremely insulting terms; Applying those labels to people you don't even know is the height of arrogance

    3,4,5) See #2

    6) Who said they were comparing anything? Customer satisfaction surveys ask how satisfied you are with the product/service in question. They may - or may not - also ask if you've looked at any alternatives, but that's not the core question.

    You may think people are idiots for not having compared products and coming to the same conclusion you did, but :

    1) They may have made the comparison and made a different decision

    2) The question regarding comparisons may not even be applicable

    Disregarding these two possibilities is arrogance. Or burying your head in the sand.

    - R.
    10-21-10 08:06 PM
  18. _StephenBB81's Avatar
    1) Not necessarily; It means they're happy with it - there may be problems, but it still satisfies their needs sufficiently that they're happy (ex - I haven't driven every car out there, but I am still very satisfied with the one I own despite a slight wind noise in the sunroof at high speeds, and I am NOT a naive purchaser or user)

    2) I am not looking for the arrogance - "drones", "mindless", and "sheeple" are all extremely insulting terms; Applying those labels to people you don't even know is the height of arrogance

    3,4,5) See #2

    6) Who said they were comparing anything? Customer satisfaction surveys ask how satisfied you are with the product/service in question. They may - or may not - also ask if you've looked at any alternatives, but that's not the core question.

    You may think people are idiots for not having compared products and coming to the same conclusion you did, but :

    1) They may have made the comparison and made a different decision

    2) The question regarding comparisons may not even be applicable

    Disregarding these two possibilities is arrogance. Or burying your head in the sand.

    - R.

    The General public IS stupid, mob mentality proves this time and time again, individuals can be smart, but as groups flock to things popularity supersedes intelligence.

    as for over all Satisfaction, if you've never used any other smartphone, ANY smartphone is going to give you a high satisfaction over a dumbphone, which gives a artifically high satisfaction number, I don't want to discredit the quality of the Apple product, as they do a good job for their purpose, I just wanted to speculate as the very high rating.

    I never coined the term Sheeple, but it has been a commonly used Term for Apple fan people for many years. if I come across as Arrogant I can live with that, though it is not RIM arrogance, it would purely be arrogance if we are going to pick apart.

    This discussion should be ended, between the 2 of us, as we will continue to disagree.
    10-22-10 07:48 AM
  19. Rooster99's Avatar
    1) ... as for over all Satisfaction, if you've never used any other smartphone, ANY smartphone is going to give you a high satisfaction over a dumbphone, which gives a artifically high satisfaction number

    2) ... I never coined the term Sheeple, but it has been a commonly used Term for Apple fan people for many years. if I come across as Arrogant I can live with that, though it is not RIM arrogance, it would purely be arrogance if we are going to pick apart.
    1) Not true. Storm was my 1st smartphone and I would NEVER give it a high satisfaction rating. I now have a Storm 2 and there are only moments when I would give it a high rating (ie - when it's not freezing, spontaneously rebooting, ignoring my keypresses, etc.). Overall I'd only give it a mediocre satisfaction rating - although in its good moments it has shown me what the "potential" is for such a device when it operates reliably and smoothly.

    2) It's been used as a derogatory term under many circumstances, but it's always derogatory.

    deRussett, I've read a lot of your posts and you're a pretty smart guy. But you have to admit, your comment was a touch dismissive of the intelligence of those who simply may not agree with you.

    - R.
    10-22-10 11:22 AM
  20. TheScionicMan's Avatar
    10-22-10 11:33 AM
  21. Ghostnyc's Avatar
    You have to allow a percentage of iPhone owners are people who simply grab what is hot the moment they need it. They don't have an understanding of their needs or read the tech blogs, but they hear on the news about the long lines at iPhone launches and think "hey it must be good".

    You have to admit having debate on this is difficult because if you are reading this now, odds are you are well informed about almost anything you buy. But if you think about it, we all know people that are smart, successful and could care less about the latest gadget.
    10-22-10 01:56 PM
  22. avt123's Avatar
    You have to allow a percentage of iPhone owners are people who simply grab what is hot the moment they need it. They don't have an understanding of their needs or read the tech blogs, but they hear on the news about the long lines at iPhone launches and think "hey it must be good".
    Even if they did read tech blogs the majority of them all praise the iPhone even with its antenna issue. The iPhone receives positive press on 95% of tech sites, at least the mainstream ones that matter.
    10-22-10 02:00 PM
  23. Rooster99's Avatar
    You have to allow a percentage of iPhone owners are people who simply grab what is hot the moment they need it. They don't have an understanding of their needs or read the tech blogs, but they hear on the news about the long lines at iPhone launches and think "hey it must be good".

    You have to admit having debate on this is difficult because if you are reading this now, odds are you are well informed about almost anything you buy. But if you think about it, we all know people that are smart, successful and could care less about the latest gadget.
    You're missing the point of a customer sat survey. They're not asking if the device is problem free. They're not asking if the device compares well to the competition. They're not asking what people based their buying decision on. And they're not asking what people "think" the device is like.

    They are asking if the owner is happy with the device in question at the point the question is being asked. Yes/No. Or perhaps "How happy are you on a scale of 1-10?".

    It doesn't matter if the device isn't perfect. It doesn't matter what the tech blogs or anyone else has to say. It doesn't matter whether they have their phone because they did research, because their employer gave it to them, because they joined a lineup at random or because they simply closed their eyes and pointed. High customer sat = "This device makes me happy" or "This device scores 8 out of 10 on my personal happiness scale".

    And it's stupid to say they "don't have an understanding of their needs" - if they're happy, then their perceived needs are being met by definition.

    You can't dismiss customer sat surveys just because you have a low opinion of the people being surveyed.

    - R.
    10-22-10 03:59 PM
  24. avt123's Avatar
    You're missing the point of a customer sat survey. They're not asking if the device is problem free. They're not asking if the device compares well to the competition. They're not asking what people based their buying decision on. And they're not asking what people "think" the device is like.

    They are asking if the owner is happy with the device in question at the point the question is being asked. Yes/No. Or perhaps "How happy are you on a scale of 1-10?".

    It doesn't matter if the device isn't perfect. It doesn't matter what the tech blogs or anyone else has to say. It doesn't matter whether they have their phone because they did research, because their employer gave it to them, because they joined a lineup at random or because they simply closed their eyes and pointed. High customer sat = "This device makes me happy" or "This device scores 8 out of 10 on my personal happiness scale".

    And it's stupid to say they "don't have an understanding of their needs" - if they're happy, then their perceived needs are being met by definition.

    You can't dismiss customer sat surveys just because you have a low opinion of the people being surveyed.

    - R.
    Very good post.
    10-22-10 04:10 PM
  25. Rooster99's Avatar
    Very good post.
    Thank you <g>

    - R.
    10-22-10 05:32 PM
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