[qbnkelt]

All tech has its day and is replaced. Android and iOs will also be replaced. When the day comes for BES I will embrace it.

[evangothard]

1) Isn't the trend to employers opening things up so employees can use (and supply) the phones they choose? Won't apply to everyone, but I see lots of reports of this happening, even with banks. That opens the door to consumer choice having way more impact on business than before.

2) Building on that, entertainment and life affirmation become much more significant factors in the device purchased/used. Not the only ones, or maybe even the primary ones, but certainly way more important.

3) We run a recruiting business here in Canada focused on management and key support positions in our target industries, and while there's no labour shortage, there's definitely a talent shortage. I've never seen a candidate turn down a position because of a phone brand, but I've seen employers do startling things to be attractive to top talent. Opening the phone choice up, especially to a "cool" device attractive to the late 20's/early 30's "up and comer" would be just one more factor in building an attractive employer image (Employee Value Proposition). Especially if you're looking for someone in an image-conscious industry/role. That would go double if the difference was also ease of use - some stellar operators are NOT comfortable doing much more than running an appliance (aka iPhone). And triple if another issue were stability - being the only person at the table doing a battery pull to see if you're available for a follow up meeting or year end celebratory dinner is embarrassing (says the voice of experience).

- R.

Rooster--you make good points but you have a crowd here that is tone deaf to aanything non bberry--i was calling them fanbbois in a previous thread. many of the things you bring up are true. QBnkelt brings up some great points that apply to security sensitive industries. I do remind her and others that the pharma industry which is one of the most security sensitive industries is letting BES go slowly but surely. BES is bullet proof but the Good product is gaining traction and for many companies the encryption and remote wiping ability that comes with an iOS or droid device provides enough security. A good friend of mine who is the sr director of IT for one of the top 5 pharmas ($50 billlion in sales, swiss company--very conservative) has removed the BES barrier. they want to make sure devices augment the creativity of their employees and dont get in their way. I think more than iOS, RIM may need to be afraid of the new MS/Nokia partnership. Only time will tell...

[evangothard]

It is embarrassing even when not in the yuppie setting. Though, I also speak from experience, both on the BB side, and the Android camp. I really hope this issue is solved 100% by either 6.1 or QNX.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

This. + 1,000,000

DeR and QN--seems like you didnt believe this happened the last time we exchanged comments....

[qbnkelt]

That BES will one day be replaced? Of course! No solution is eternal.
That there is something out there right now, this instant, that can replace it for its core user? No, not at all.

As far as the comment you quoted above, I honestly don't have to do battery pulls. I have Meterberry do a restart each morning at 3:30 a.m., right after I get back from running the dogs each morning.

[i7guy]

Rooster--you make good points but you have a crowd here that is tone deaf to aanything non bberry--i was calling them fanbbois in a previous thread. many of the things you bring up are true. QBnkelt brings up some great points that apply to security sensitive industries. I do remind her and others that the pharma industry which is one of the most security sensitive industries is letting BES go slowly but surely. BES is bullet proof but the Good product is gaining traction and for many companies the encryption and remote wiping ability that comes with an iOS or droid device provides enough security. A good friend of mine who is the sr director of IT for one of the top 5 pharmas ($50 billlion in sales, swiss company--very conservative) has removed the BES barrier. they want to make sure devices augment the creativity of their employees and dont get in their way. I think more than iOS, RIM may need to be afraid of the new MS/Nokia partnership. Only time will tell...

If I were your sr it director friend, I would be needing my companies drugs to help me sleep at night, wondering if my job and companies sensitive was on the line, especially with the latest ios security holes.

Someone has got to be asking probing questions. Remote wipe and other software does no good, if you lose the phone and it can be cracked in 6 minutes.

Putting an iphone on the network at this point with jailbreaking and security holes, is like allowing employees to plug in their own computers to your companies network inside of the firewall.

[_StephenBB81]

This. + 1,000,000

DeR and QN--seems like you didnt believe this happened the last time we exchanged comments....

Oh I believe BES is going to be replaced soon unless some major changes are made to it, I am a RIM Optimist, but I am not delusional thinking they are the end all and be all, With the MS/Nok agreement, I will probably have a WinMo device in 2012,

IMO BES needs to do a lot to bring value for the dollar, integrated CRM, integrated MVS, without additonal fees, Admin control over truncation, just to start with what BES needs to remain a staple in the business community though to 2015.

BUT I don't doom and gloom like so many do here, companys are giving middle management, and sales reps other technology. Great it is a reasonably cheap way to boost company moral with minimal risk, Top executives, and R&D managers are remaining with BB's for time being,
when you go into a board room, it is still predominately Blackberry's and they are not all 2 year old Blackberry's waiting to swap out to some new tech

[qbnkelt]

Aside from the fact that there has to be justification for the money that would be spend on such a swap out. The gains that any new system would offer would have to be weighed against how much it would cost....what is the ROI, in the practical sense?

[Rooster99]

Aside from the fact that there has to be justification for the money that would be spend on such a swap out. The gains that any new system would offer would have to be weighed against how much it would cost....what is the ROI, in the practical sense?

That is where the long term comes into play, looking at the trend in innovation, apps, consumer adoption (as a measure of how quickly/easily your users will embrace the technology), developer adoption, and yes, market share trends. Plus the cost of staying the course. Keep in mind that business looks at swap outs only when it's time to do upgrades on what they have, so it's not like there's $0 cost to maintaining the status quo.

Big investments = bets on the future. Bets on the future are typically guided by what's happened in the past, and unfortunately, in all the areas I've listed RIM has developed a track record for lacking vision, being behind in delivery and poor execution. That has damaged their credibility with many.

So, nice slides but let's see what they really deliver - and not just on their own but in comparison to the competition. "Best Berry" is not the same as "best tech", and from what I can see of their road map, if you assume the competition isn't standing still there is a good chance it will be "too little, too late". The only thing I can see that may change that is what - and when - they deliver re QNX on the phone (thanks for the affirmation on that, Crucial). But with all the new emphasis on 6.1, it makes me think QNX on the phone is further off than we'd all hoped.

- R.

[67Tucker]

I honestly don't have to do battery pulls. I have Meterberry do a restart each morning at 3:30 a.m., right after I get back from running the dogs each morning.

Semantics aside, that's a battery pull.

[qbnkelt]

ever heard of maintenance? you know....like an oil change? ever defragged a PC? back up your iTunes?

[67Tucker]

ever heard of maintenance? you know....like an oil change? ever defragged a PC? back up your iTunes?

Yes I have, and what you're doing is still a battery pull.

[qbnkelt]

That is where the long term comes into play, looking at the trend in innovation, apps, consumer adoption (as a measure of how quickly/easily your users will embrace the technology), developer adoption, and yes, market share trends. Plus the cost of staying the course. Keep in mind that business looks at swap outs only when it's time to do upgrades on what they have, so it's not like there's $0 cost to maintaining the status quo.

Big investments = bets on the future. Bets on the future are typically guided by what's happened in the past, and unfortunately, in all the areas I've listed RIM has developed a track record for lacking vision, being behind in delivery and poor execution. That has damaged their credibility with many.

So, nice slides but let's see what they really deliver - and not just on their own but in comparison to the competition. "Best Berry" is not the same as "best tech", and from what I can see of their road map, if you assume the competition isn't standing still there is a good chance it will be "too little, too late". The only thing I can see that may change that is what - and when - they deliver re QNX on the phone (thanks for the affirmation on that, Crucial). But with all the new emphasis on 6.1, it makes me think QNX on the phone is further off than we'd all hoped.

- R.

But you're talking about local swap outs. I'm referring to an industry wide swap out, which is what would happen to us. That would be an enormous expense that could come back to haunt us...I can see the media having a field day with us going through the extravagance of swapping out a platform without a very, very good reason.

A small company or private industry can do it, if they feel the gain would warrant it. We have a lot of people to answer to, aside from our internal requirements.

And don't forget that with the federal government, RIM has not failed in the least. They have and do perform admirably per the specified reqirements. Where you talk of innovation we talk of security, and no platform excels BB *at this time.*

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

Yes I have, and what you're doing is still a battery pull.

So, just like your PC rebooting itself after a Blue Screen of Death ey?

[UrbanGlowCam]

ever heard of maintenance? you know....like an oil change? ever defragged a PC? back up your iTunes?

That's a good point actually.

[Rooster99]

But you're talking about local swap outs. I'm referring to an industry wide swap out, which is what would happen to us. That would be an enormous expense that could come back to haunt us...I can see the media having a field day with us going through the extravagance of swapping out a platform without a very, very good reason.

A small company or private industry can do it, if they feel the gain would warrant it. We have a lot of people to answer to, aside from our internal requirements.

And don't forget that with the federal government, RIM has not failed in the least. They have and do perform admirably per the specified reqirements. Where you talk of innovation we talk of security, and no platform excels BB *at this time.*

A swap out is a swap out - the only thing that changes is the cost and therefore the size of the return required to provide the appropriate ROI.

Basically, all you've shown is that with the federal government RIM can be even more complacent than with private industry in any area except security. And even there, given the size of the current investment RIM doesn't have to be innovative or better than anyone else - they just need to be as good as them. No surprise there.

- R.

[Rooster99]

But you're talking about local swap outs. I'm referring to an industry wide swap out, which is what would happen to us. That would be an enormous expense that could come back to haunt us...I can see the media having a field day with us going through the extravagance of swapping out a platform without a very, very good reason.

A small company or private industry can do it, if they feel the gain would warrant it. We have a lot of people to answer to, aside from our internal requirements.

And don't forget that with the federal government, RIM has not failed in the least. They have and do perform admirably per the specified reqirements. Where you talk of innovation we talk of security, and no platform excels BB *at this time.*

A swap out is a sap out - the only thing that changes is the cost and therefore the size of the return required to provide the appropriate ROI.

Basically, all you've shown is that with the federal government RIM can be even more complacent than with private industry in any area except security. And even there, given the size of the current investment RIM doesn't have to be innovative or better than anyone else - they just need to be as good as them. No surprise there.

- R.

[qbnkelt]

Wasn't trying to surprise...what I'm saying is that in order to justify a swap out there has to be a compelling justification for the fundign spent. Otherwise you'll hear it from the media and the public.
Right now no such compelling justification exists. gotta go. gotta run the dogs.

[qbnkelt]

Yes I have, and what you're doing is still a battery pull.

are so really so daffed that you can't get even a point that is made to you in complete directness?

[aab81901]

Cool story, bro!

Bro, I meant to say that your comments, which were directly aimed at someone, were rude and disrespectful. But what I actually said might have been a bit harsh. You usually have good insight. That post was very uncharacteristic.

[Sleeping Beastly]

First off, thanks to the Crackberry staff for posting this. I am sure I am not the only one who appreciated the info, even if it was posted elsewhere previously. Some of us are space cadets.

Secondly, I don't think this roadmap represents a failure on RIM's part at all. These offerings pretty much cover what BlackBerry users want, with the possible exception of a newer model Pearl. Will it convert die-hard iPhone or Android users? Of course not. But when RIM starts catering to those people, it will lose its fan base. I prefer BlackBerry *because* it's not like iOS or Android. I'm happy for RIM to keep giving us solid, upgraded versions of what they've been giving us for years.

Sure, the current BlackBerry OS will be phased out and replaced by QNX in the next couple of years. But the way the wireless industry operates, all current Android and iPhone devices will be obsolete by then too. Will anyone want a 3G iPhone in 2012? Will iOS 4 be appealing to anyone when everyone else is toting around the iPhone 6? Who will want an Android with a 1 GHz processor, running FroYo with a max download speed of 5 Mbps when all the newer models have quad-core processors, run Jujube, and have max download speeds upwards of 40 Mbps? I'm okay with buying a device this year that is obsolete by 2012. Because that would be the case no matter what device I bought. At least with a BlackBerry I know my phone will treat me very well until it's time to replace it.

Keep up the good work, RIM. And same to the Crackberry staff.

[i7guy]

^^^^ You get a prop and welcome to Blackberry.

[SWAT-ron2k11]

Did anyone of you recall what was stated by RIM ? They are waiting for dual core to start working QNX on blackberry smart phones. Samsung (andriod) and motorola both have dual core in there phones. And nvidia is a ready to pump out quad core chips for tablets this august, and for phones next year. But yet BB is stuck at OS 6.1 at 800 Mhz or 1 Ghz. And plan to release it Q3. Tell me how that's not late ????????????????????? There's a diffrence between announcemnt and release.
BB slacks comaring it to say...the Galaxy S2


* yet I will stay with BB. I'm rooted in Blackberry.
When u have a small cut, do you bleed ? RIM is bleeding but they will stick around

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[darkmanx2g]

The mindshare is gone. They are no longer what people want or crave for. Referring to the 3g/4g market. Its going to take something really big to slow down Ios and android.

And I don't think QNX and Tat can grab back that marketshare. Apps are going to be expensive and developers will develop for the platform that is innovative to use, has the marketshare (big audience), and big profits.

I use to have pinball deluxe on my 8900 cost 4.99. On android it was free with better graphics and more boards. Not everyone needs FBI CIA security with the cost of a good mobile browser. Blackberries right now is a basic smartphone. With a little more functionality than a feature messaging phone. They are basically a basic entry level smartphone for a consumer who doesn't have 3g and a business communication device for a businessmen/women.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[Daniel Ratcliffe]

And I don't think QNX and Tat can grab back that marketshare. Apps are going to be expensive and developers will develop for the platform that is innovative to use, has the marketshare (big audience), and big profits.

Not to mention you're going to be like �1500 down before you can even START development. Therefore RIM cannot succeed unless they make app development easier... I think in the US they'll be dead before 2011 is over, but in the UK Android's presence now seems to be taking off. iPhone users aren't switching, nor are Nokia, WinMob, and dumbphone users. It's BlackBerry users that are switching... Only recently did a friend turn around and say BlackBerrys are underpowered bigtime and you get so much more for less with Android.

[darkmanx2g]

Not to mention you're going to be like �1500 down before you can even START development. Therefore RIM cannot succeed unless they make app development easier... I think in the US they'll be dead before 2011 is over, but in the UK Android's presence now seems to be taking off. iPhone users aren't switching, nor are Nokia, WinMob, and dumbphone users. It's BlackBerry users that are switching... Only recently did a friend turn around and say BlackBerrys are underpowered bigtime and you get so much more for less with Android.

Agreed. And they aren't even focused on app development. They're relying on the web browser. On a keyboard mouse platform there is no need for Alps. But on a fully touch ui such as tablets and smartphones.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com