[_StephenBB81]

This is what you would call a stop-gap, much like what Microsoft did with Windows Mobile 6.5. The terrible parts (and there are many) of a stop-gap solution are:
1) Developers aren't going to develop for stop-gap phones when the platform is clearly at the end of its life
2) Consumers, if they know there are next generation phones coming out in the next year, won't buy stop-gap phones

And then adding to the fact that these 2011 BB's are years behind software-wise and a year behind hardware-wise, it most likely won't stop the bleeding at all. With the iPhone 5 coming out for both AT&T and Verizon and the Android superphones being pumped out this year for all carriers, it'll be a pretty hard sell to convince consumers to take these OS 6.1 devices seriously. Not to mention webOS phones will be kicking in full swing (if HP keeps their word about being serious in the smartphone business) and Windows Phone 7 slowly being adopted.

I read right over this post because of who the poster was the first time around, but after seeing it quoted I had to comment

Blackberrys in 2011 are NOT years behind software wise, Not in the slightest, They are "years behind" in UI design, they certainly don't look the part for todays app launcher driven OS environments, but the OS supports excellent multitasking capabilities, OS6 has solid memory management, and the encryption for the SDcard whilst still being able to use it is fantastic, as is the Radio support, there is much more to an OS than just the UI.

As for Hardware, RIM is lagging in terms of hardware, that can't be denied, BUT I don't think it is as big of problem as the posters on this board make it out to be, simply because Intel continues to sell i3 processors! and to the bulk of the population they would see no improvement from an i3 to an i7, so specs are not the end all be all, except to the enthusiast/hobbyist, and the bloggers.

Developing for OS6, has been said to be much easier than OS5 and before, so Developers will throw their hat into the Blackberry world, knowing that QNX will run these apps, actually if I was a Developer of a popular Android App, I would very much look at developing my App for OS6 Blackberry's because there is less competition, and the Android faithful will push the sales to the Blackberry's and if Blackberry does turn a corner with QNX I'd already have a user base to grow. it makes good sense to develop for OS6 while looking to remain QNX compliant.

[alby4ever]

I read right over this post because of who the poster was the first time around, but after seeing it quoted I had to comment

Blackberrys in 2011 are NOT years behind software wise, Not in the slightest, They are "years behind" in UI design, they certainly don't look the part for todays app launcher driven OS environments, but the OS supports excellent multitasking capabilities, OS6 has solid memory management, and the encryption for the SDcard whilst still being able to use it is fantastic, as is the Radio support, there is much more to an OS than just the UI.

As for Hardware, RIM is lagging in terms of hardware, that can't be denied, BUT I don't think it is as big of problem as the posters on this board make it out to be, simply because Intel continues to sell i3 processors! and to the bulk of the population they would see no improvement from an i3 to an i7, so specs are not the end all be all, except to the enthusiast/hobbyist, and the bloggers.

Developing for OS6, has been said to be much easier than OS5 and before, so Developers will throw their hat into the Blackberry world, knowing that QNX will run these apps, actually if I was a Developer of a popular Android App, I would very much look at developing my App for OS6 Blackberry's because there is less competition, and the Android faithful will push the sales to the Blackberry's and if Blackberry does turn a corner with QNX I'd already have a user base to grow. it makes good sense to develop for OS6 while looking to remain QNX compliant.

I'll give you the first two.

As for developing on OS6, developers aren't going to develop for a platform that doesn't have the customer base they're looking for. Android and iOS are consistently ranked as the top preference (Android over iOS in some surveys) for developers.

OS6 could possibly be easier to develop for, but it doesn't change the fact the apps are "third-world" in comparison to iOS and Android apps. There is a huge gap in app quality and that can't be denied. That means the best and brightest developers are not looking at OS6. The incentive to be the bigger fish in a smaller pond, like you mention, has always been there but nobody is taking it.

Remaining QNX compliant isn't a big advantage either. I'm not even sure if I've heard that QNX will run legacy OS6 apps. Even if that's true, running legacy third-rate apps on a high-end platform is a pretty crappy solution for the end user. Eventually the QNX platform will be judged by the number of quality native apps, and OS6 apps being in that picture hurts it.

[alby4ever]

They've been annoying for a year...literally...

I noticed something yesterday while waiting at O'Hare....there was a huge number of suits (I'd already changed into my jeans and long sleeve T-shirt, REFUSE to travel in a suit, but I digress) and the overwhelming majority of those suits were carrying BBerries. There were a few, like me, who carried more than one!
I also noticed some young people with iPhones - easily distinguishable from far away by the bumper. A few 3GS. A few suits with iPhones.

The idea that BB is dying or in its last legs or that it's not up to standard was nowhere around O'Hare last night. I can say that the majority of people taking care of business while waiting at the airport were carrying BBerries.

Oh, I saw four iPads. They are gorgeous devices, just as the iPhones. But they are much too large. Watching a couple of people handle them really told me that the size is not right for me.

So doom and gloomers.....meh.....my preferences and my observations of the AA terminal last night tell me different.

Yup. Those businessmen being forced to use BB's sure is proof that BB's aren't fading.

Also let's ignore the fact that the businessmen who do have a choice of phone have recently been jumping over to iPhones and Android.

[Rooster99]

uh, what? must be a telus thing.

Partly Canada (delay after US launch) partly RIM (shipping initial release with unstable/poor performing OS - did it with Stom 1, Storm 2, and now Torch) partly Telus (slow to release needed upgrades) partly 2rd party developers (time to port to new OS).

Purely an estimate on my part, but I am tired of buying a hot new Berry and living through the initial shakedown. I'll wait now.

The old softwre mantra - never buy rev 1.0 of anything!

- R.

[Rooster99]

... OS6 has solid memory management ... RIM is lagging in terms of hardware, that can't be denied, BUT I don't think it is as big of problem as the posters on this board make it out to be ... specs are not the end all be all, except to the enthusiast/hobbyist, and the bloggers.

Solid memory management? When I still can't run apps in all my memory space?

Hardware lag not an issue? When my brand new flagship device Torch still shows me a spinning clock at least 2-3x/day?

And what about the random deletions of Calendar items, which has been a known issue for years and still isn't fixed? Or the periodic lockups of my browser when I click on a link in and email message? Etc. Don't know if these are memory management issues or just flaky/crappy OS issues, but they're issues I face on a routine basis. Maybe not every day, but they happen repeatedly.

deRusset, I like your posts even when I don't agree with them. But when in an earlier post you said you were a Berry optimist, you were right.

- R.

[_StephenBB81]

Solid memory management? When I still can't run apps in all my memory space?

Hardware lag not an issue? When my brand new flagship device Torch still shows me a spinning clock at least 2-3x/day?

And what about the random deletions of Calendar items, which has been a known issue for years and still isn't fixed? Or the periodic lockups of my browser when I click on a link in and email message? Etc. Don't know if these are memory management issues or just flaky/crappy OS issues, but they're issues I face on a routine basis. Maybe not every day, but they happen repeatedly.

deRusset, I like your posts even when I don't agree with them. But when in an earlier post you said you were a Berry optimist, you were right.

- R.

You seem to have more issues with your Torch than I, With OS6 I noticed a significant improvement in use of multiple applications as well as very few applications freezing on me, as I have happen on PC's and on older BBOS's and WinMo os's
as for Hardware, my post was Hardware lagging in terms of specs not causing hardware lag when using the device, I wish that someone would find a way to allow me to Clock the Torch processor to it's capable 800mhz.

[_StephenBB81]

I'll give you the first two.

As for developing on OS6, developers aren't going to develop for a platform that doesn't have the customer base they're looking for. Android and iOS are consistently ranked as the top preference (Android over iOS in some surveys) for developers.

OS6 could possibly be easier to develop for, but it doesn't change the fact the apps are "third-world" in comparison to iOS and Android apps. There is a huge gap in app quality and that can't be denied. That means the best and brightest developers are not looking at OS6. The incentive to be the bigger fish in a smaller pond, like you mention, has always been there but nobody is taking it.

Remaining QNX compliant isn't a big advantage either. I'm not even sure if I've heard that QNX will run legacy OS6 apps. Even if that's true, running legacy third-rate apps on a high-end platform is a pretty crappy solution for the end user. Eventually the QNX platform will be judged by the number of quality native apps, and OS6 apps being in that picture hurts it.

I don't see how expanding your potential client base isn't good business, if the development is truly challenging, as it was with OS5 devices, that was a reason, but OS6 being easier, if you have a successful Android Application, porting it over to OS6, whilst checking QNX porting is a good way to expand your market. Not everyone would do that since a lot of apps are not made by development houses, it is the development houses that should be targetting OS6, Clearly it has another year, and it is very safe to assume that there will be 20million OS6 devices shipped in 2011, seeing as RIM ships 10million+ a quarter, That is a good size user base to start developing for, and getting in on the ground level for a future platform. it is long term developing strategy, most developers wont be thinking long term. those that are have been developing for OS6, and have developed for QNX

I am sure there was confirmation that OS6 apps would run on the QNX platform

[qbnkelt]

This is a common misconception. Rooted/Jailbroken devices can be denied access to secure networks and/or locked down. You can remove the IT Policy from a BlackBerry too, but good luck getting it to work on its network.

Depending on the restrictions on the network, of course, that is true. Our IT policies do not allow anything - not even an iPad - on the network. Also, once the IT policy is removed from a Blackberry, it wont connect to our network. It's a paperweight.

There are some people who have tried to remove the IT policy and while they may feel that because they remove it from the handset they've managed to beat the system. What they find out is that the instant they try to connect they're locked out. I am speaking of BES, not Exchange.

[qbnkelt]

Yup. Those businessmen being forced to use BB's sure is proof that BB's aren't fading.

Also let's ignore the fact that the businessmen who do have a choice of phone have recently been jumping over to iPhones and Android.

Way to miss the point. In corporations where security is necessary *the choice they make* is RIM.

And this may be breaking news, but where security is a major concern RIM dominates. Spin at your will, but the fact remains that BES is the choice in highly secure environments. And another breaking news, most employers determine the tools the employees use. Phones are tools, meant to enhance productivity and communication, not entertainment or bringing life affirmation. And I have yet to meet someone who turns down a position in the low 90Ks because he is "forced" to use a Blackberry.

Oh yeah....and there are plenty of us who carry around the work BB and the personal BB we *chose* to buy. So, where there is a choice, in direct contradiction to your sky-is-falling mentality, people are choosing BB inside and outside work.

[Rooster99]

... And another breaking news, most employers determine the tools the employees use. ... Phones are tools, meant to enhance productivity and communication, not entertainment or bringing life affirmation. And I have yet to meet someone who turns down a position in the low 90Ks because he is "forced" to use a Blackberry. ...

1) Isn't the trend to employers opening things up so employees can use (and supply) the phones they choose? Won't apply to everyone, but I see lots of reports of this happening, even with banks. That opens the door to consumer choice having way more impact on business than before.

2) Building on that, entertainment and life affirmation become much more significant factors in the device purchased/used. Not the only ones, or maybe even the primary ones, but certainly way more important.

3) We run a recruiting business here in Canada focused on management and key support positions in our target industries, and while there's no labour shortage, there's definitely a talent shortage. I've never seen a candidate turn down a position because of a phone brand, but I've seen employers do startling things to be attractive to top talent. Opening the phone choice up, especially to a "cool" device attractive to the late 20's/early 30's "up and comer" would be just one more factor in building an attractive employer image (Employee Value Proposition). Especially if you're looking for someone in an image-conscious industry/role. That would go double if the difference was also ease of use - some stellar operators are NOT comfortable doing much more than running an appliance (aka iPhone). And triple if another issue were stability - being the only person at the table doing a battery pull to see if you're available for a follow up meeting or year end celebratory dinner is embarrassing (says the voice of experience).

- R.

[_StephenBB81]

1) Isn't the trend to employers opening things up so employees can use (and supply) the phones they choose? Won't apply to everyone, but I see lots of reports of this happening, even with banks. That opens the door to consumer choice having way more impact on business than before.

2) Building on that, entertainment and life affirmation become much more significant factors in the device purchased/used. Not the only ones, or maybe even the primary ones, but certainly way more important.

3) We run a recruiting business here in Canada focused on management and key support positions in our target industries, and while there's no labour shortage, there's definitely a talent shortage. I've never seen a candidate turn down a position because of a phone brand, but I've seen employers do startling things to be attractive to top talent. Opening the phone choice up, especially to a "cool" device attractive to the late 20's/early 30's "up and comer" would be just one more factor in building an attractive employer image (Employee Value Proposition). Especially if you're looking for someone in an image-conscious industry/role. That would go double if the difference was also ease of use - some stellar operators are NOT comfortable doing much more than running an appliance (aka iPhone). And triple if another issue were stability - being the only person at the table doing a battery pull to see if you're available for a follow up meeting or year end celebratory dinner is embarrassing (says the voice of experience).

- R.

I'll agree with the opening things up for talent, Changing the Car provided was enough to keep me from switching company's and Recruiters certainly pick up on the things that make the talent they seek click, and give those opinions to the staff, I know if I was offered a new job but had to move to Mac/iPhone I'd need to see a significant raise to move to said company, though I'd probably move much easier if the offer was a yearly technology budget and I was incharge of maintaining my own home office including laptop and mobile phones. freedom does attract people, BUT at some points freedom vs Security, those Banks that are opening things up to other platforms, if you look, it is to middle management and lower.
Governments still are using Blackberry's for the top staff, even if lower staff are given access to bringing in their own tech, you will see more Middle management, positions using their own mobile phones, whilst the upper management who need security first, and don't really dabble and play with their phones will continue to use Blackberry, and we have another 10-15 years before we see the generational shift at BIG corporations,

[trojanscott]

I work for a smaller company, we all have BBerries, but I've heard rumblings that we may be going the iPhone route. Fine with me, they pay for our plans. We're all on Verizon, and all getting tired of waiting for a good phone that can handle email AND browse the net. Sorry, IT IS IMPORTANT in today's business to have fast access to the net and be able to multitask. My Storm 2 was great for quite some time, but not anymore. I'm seeing more and more business people with droids and iphones.
I'd go with a Torch if it ever came to Verizon, but it seems like the iphone 5 is going to be the next big thing to come my way.

[Rooster99]

I read right over this post because of who the poster was the first time around, but after seeing it quoted I had to comment

Blackberrys in 2011 are NOT years behind software wise, Not in the slightest, They are "years behind" in UI design, they certainly don't look the part for todays app launcher driven OS environments, but the OS supports excellent multitasking capabilities, OS6 has solid memory management, and the encryption for the SDcard whilst still being able to use it is fantastic, as is the Radio support, there is much more to an OS than just the UI.

As for Hardware, RIM is lagging in terms of hardware, that can't be denied, BUT I don't think it is as big of problem as the posters on this board make it out to be, simply because Intel continues to sell i3 processors! and to the bulk of the population they would see no improvement from an i3 to an i7, so specs are not the end all be all, except to the enthusiast/hobbyist, and the bloggers.

Developing for OS6, has been said to be much easier than OS5 and before, so Developers will throw their hat into the Blackberry world, knowing that QNX will run these apps, actually if I was a Developer of a popular Android App, I would very much look at developing my App for OS6 Blackberry's because there is less competition, and the Android faithful will push the sales to the Blackberry's and if Blackberry does turn a corner with QNX I'd already have a user base to grow. it makes good sense to develop for OS6 while looking to remain QNX compliant.

I also need to ask about OpenGL support. Added with the S2, taken away with the release of the next device, the flagship Torch. To me that is a big deal because when I'm waiting for a meeting to start, sitting in an airplane flying to a client's, etc. I like to play Tank Recon. Didn't stop me from buying a Torch when I lost my S2, but I wasn't happy. Sue me for being a person!

And I suspect the lack of OpenGL affects more than just games.

Don't know if that's a hardware or OS issue, but either way it just doesn't make sense. Giving a customer things then taking them away is not a recipe for client satisfaction.

That shows yet again the flaws with the road map. I mean, touting OpenGL support as a big deal when you're talking about a Q3 2011 release and you had it on a device 2 years before? Good lord - are you running out of things to talk about???

You must be - "Here's my brand new, compete-with-the-3D/dual core/etc. smokin' competition device and guess what? You can do something you could do 2 years ago, plus if you call in within the next 15 minutes we'll give you the ability to manage your home panes!" That's so weak it's scary, and another reason I wonder what we're really going to get.

- R.

[qbnkelt]

1) Isn't the trend to employers opening things up so employees can use (and supply) the phones they choose? Won't apply to everyone, but I see lots of reports of this happening, even with banks. That opens the door to consumer choice having way more impact on business than before.

2) Building on that, entertainment and life affirmation become much more significant factors in the device purchased/used. Not the only ones, or maybe even the primary ones, but certainly way more important.

3) We run a recruiting business here in Canada focused on management and key support positions in our target industries, and while there's no labour shortage, there's definitely a talent shortage. I've never seen a candidate turn down a position because of a phone brand, but I've seen employers do startling things to be attractive to top talent. Opening the phone choice up, especially to a "cool" device attractive to the late 20's/early 30's "up and comer" would be just one more factor in building an attractive employer image (Employee Value Proposition). Especially if you're looking for someone in an image-conscious industry/role. That would go double if the difference was also ease of use - some stellar operators are NOT comfortable doing much more than running an appliance (aka iPhone). And triple if another issue were stability - being the only person at the table doing a battery pull to see if you're available for a follow up meeting or year end celebratory dinner is embarrassing (says the voice of experience).

- R.

There is a very definite distinction in the open job market than in the closed, uber secure environment where I work. I always think of places like ad agencies, art galleries, music, film where the device of choice would not be tied to security concerns....although if there were a greater concern for security you'd be sure to avoid copyright infringement lawsuits! I have a friend who opened a day spa not too far from me, and as a recruiting tool she used iPhones. All her staff use iPhones and they're on Exchange. For her, for her purposes, BES is clearly unnecessary. In that instance, the consumer demand drives the choice.

In my world, teh opposite is true. Consumer demand is not at all considered. There is a very defined set of specs that must be met, and, coincidentally, they are met only by RIM's products and services. We have a "clean" environment - quite sterile as a matter of fact.

While there is arguably a trend towards letting employees brign their own devices, not all work environments can offer that. On one end of the spectrum you have the open, "artsy" or trendy industries....then there is my world. I harp on security because it is in fact the core of my duties, the enforcement of the regulations that govern my IT team's activities, projects, and systems. So I'm on the other end of the spectrum, what I referred to earlier as the Blackberry core user. And while not a large industry outside of DC, I can tell you that DC is a company town - all feds. In this group, RIM sets the standard and is the choice.

Government agencies and heavily regulated and secure industries don't give the option - the employee must adhere to the policies of the particular industry or agency.

[_StephenBB81]

I also need to ask about OpenGL support. Added with the S2, taken away with the release of the next device, the flagship Torch. To me that is a big deal because when I'm waiting for a meeting to start, sitting in an airplane flying to a client's, etc. I like to play Tank Recon. Didn't stop me from buying a Torch when I lost my S2, but I wasn't happy. Sue me for being a person!

And I suspect the lack of OpenGL affects more than just games.

Don't know if that's a hardware or OS issue, but either way it just doesn't make sense. Giving a customer things then taking them away is not a recipe for client satisfaction.

That shows yet again the flaws with the road map. I mean, touting OpenGL support as a big deal when you're talking about a Q3 2011 release and you had it on a device 2 years before? Good lord - are you running out of things to talk about???

You must be - "Here's my brand new, compete-with-the-3D/dual core/etc. smokin' competition device and guess what? You can do something you could do 2 years ago, plus if you call in within the next 15 minutes we'll give you the ability to manage your home panes!" That's so weak it's scary, and another reason I wonder what we're really going to get.

- R.

I was upset by the lack of OpenGL support, though it was only a Hardware removal for the Torch, OS6 DID support OpenGL, when looking at the specs of it,

They must be touting it now because of people commenting that they took it out for the Torch, I was hoping to see a fun game or 2 on my torch, mind you I always think I want to play games, but even on the iPod touch when I did still carry it I found myself in Excel more than playing the plethora of games I downloaded because my 11 & 14 year old cousins would tell me they are must haves..

[mountainman]

... And triple if another issue were stability - being the only person at the table doing a battery pull to see if you're available for a follow up meeting or year end celebratory dinner is embarrassing (says the voice of experience).- R.

It is embarrassing even when not in the yuppie setting. Though, I also speak from experience, both on the BB side, and the Android camp. I really hope this issue is solved 100% by either 6.1 or QNX.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

[i7guy]

It is embarrassing even when not in the yuppie setting. Though, I also speak from experience, both on the BB side, and the Android camp. I really hope this issue is solved 100% by either 6.1 or QNX.

Posted from my CrackBerry at wapforums.crackberry.com

There is nothing worse than seeing an iphone user cry when their phone locks up.

These things do lock up. Every computer I've ever owned has locked up on occasion.

[aab81901]

+1
Part of the reason why I took a break from CB and why I don't visit as often.

You should stop posting your trash altogether. Go b!tch somewhere else *****! Your posts are even more worthless than you are.

[aab81901]

I don't think people are convincing others to leave BB (if that's what you're referring to). People (in large numbers) are leaving BB on their own.

They always come back...(in large numbers)

[Skeevecr]

I was upset by the lack of OpenGL support, though it was only a Hardware removal for the Torch, OS6 DID support OpenGL, when looking at the specs of it,

They didn't actually remove it for the Torch, it was simply that it continued the trend that none of their gsm had a chipset that supported it, whereas the cdma devices used qualcomm chipsets that do support it.

[Machzy]

Just wanted to chime in and say thanks to Rooster99, deRusett & others for turning this flamefest into an intelligent conversation where different views on the smartphone market are discussed.

I was actually going to close the thread after about the 2nd page, but then it picked up and people were actually not bashing each other but were able to carry on in a mature manner.

Posts like these - where I learn something (S2 had OpenGL and then they took it out on the Torch? That's craziness!!) - making me want to comment, engage, and come back to the CB forum to see what else people are talking about.

In the midst of the forum that are flooded by hateful posts (and posters) it's good to see that there is still some civility.

Again, thanks guys.

[aab81901]

Just wanted to chime in and say thanks to Rooster99, deRusett & others for turning this flamefest into an intelligent conversation where different views on the smartphone market are discussed.

I was actually going to close the thread after about the 2nd page, but then it picked up and people were actually not bashing each other but were able to carry on in a mature manner.

Posts like these - where I learn something (S2 had OpenGL and then they took it out on the Torch? That's craziness!!) - making me want to comment, engage, and come back to the CB forum to see what else people are talking about.

In the midst of the forum that are flooded by hateful posts (and posters) it's good to see that there is still some civility.

Again, thanks guys.

I was just trying to point out someone's disrespectful nature, but I agree with you 100%. I've had my BB for over 2 years, but found this site a mere 6 months ago. In the last 6 months, I've learned more than I did before I came to these forums. And it's all due to intelligent discussions.

[CASH]

You should stop posting your trash altogether. Go b!tch somewhere else *****! Your posts are even more worthless than you are.

Cool story, bro!

[Shodan775]

I was just trying to point out someone's disrespectful nature, but I agree with you 100%. I've had my BB for over 2 years, but found this site a mere 6 months ago. In the last 6 months, I've learned more than I did before I came to these forums. And it's all due to intelligent discussions.

Golden rule with anything you buy: Look for a dedicated forum. I learned this lesson in the 90s. Blogs can be ok too, but that's only one guy's ideas and opinions. Also when I am ready to buy anything, go see what the people who actually bought the thing say. Never go by the advertisements and biased sources with some backstabbing motive.

[evangothard]

Way to miss the point. In corporations where security is necessary *the choice they make* is RIM.

And this may be breaking news, but where security is a major concern RIM dominates. Spin at your will, but the fact remains that BES is the choice in highly secure environments. And another breaking news, most employers determine the tools the employees use. Phones are tools, meant to enhance productivity and communication, not entertainment or bringing life affirmation. And I have yet to meet someone who turns down a position in the low 90Ks because he is "forced" to use a Blackberry.

Oh yeah....and there are plenty of us who carry around the work BB and the personal BB we *chose* to buy. So, where there is a choice, in direct contradiction to your sky-is-falling mentality, people are choosing BB inside and outside work.

Seems like we debated this in the Deutch bank thread and while this was true, it is becoming less so as time goes one.

I will agree with you that when an alternative to BES is available BES will become irrelevant and that day is coming soon.