[cbvinh]

BLACKBERRY1

No one has commented on the code with a "I see what you did there?" "BlackBerry won"...

[lnichols]

T-Mobile: Z10 $206, Q10 $278... with trade-in of any BlackBerry, free next day expedited shipping, dealing with T-Mobile

BlackBerry: Z10 $199, Q10 $299, Q5 $249, upwards of 1 week to deliver, dealing with Digital River

Which deal is better/worse/both the same?

They both suck. Bought a Z10 for my son during the $199 Digital River holiday sale and it took three weeks to arrive.

I have three Z10 in the family, I want a deal on a Z30.

Posted via CB10

[BBRYed]

That's funny.

Poetry in Motion

[BBRYed]

No one has commented on the code with a "I see what you did there?" "BlackBerry won"...

That's funny.

Sorry about double post.

Poetry in Motion

[texazzpete]

A intentional move to get BB7 users off BlackBerry...

Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141

If Blackberry had done their work well (marketing, carrier staff training) BB10 should have been the one to get Blackberry users off BB7.

All in all, it's still a good discount for BB customers. Maybe I'll check out a Q5 for my mother.

huh... discounting a product in high demand and short supply would be stupid...

Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141

Any source for your assertion that the Z30 is in 'high demand and short supply'? .

[katiepea]

If Blackberry had done their work well (marketing, carrier staff training) BB10 should have been the one to get Blackberry users off BB7.

All in all, it's still a good discount for BB customers. Maybe I'll check out a Q5 for my mother.



Any source for your assertion that the Z30 is in 'high demand and short supply'? .

When I bought the z10 on launch day, I waited outside for the t-mobile store in my area to open. In downtown Los Angeles, the business district. When they opened I was 3rd in line, they told me they didn't know anything about a new BlackBerry and that they didn't have them. After I convinced them they really should have them and that corporate had announced it they looked in the back. The guy came back out and clearly felt stupid. He found them. He apologized. I could tell he knew nothing about it and that he felt ashamed of that or at least felt surprised. They had 4 of them, I bought 2. There were no signs, no posters. No info. A few days later there was a BlackBerry stand with the z10, no rep had ever shown up to educate them. This stuff isn't tmobiles fault. Why do they care what phone I buy? They have always been incredibly nice to me when dealing with phone issues. Actually that's the first phone I purchased from them. I bought them outright. All other phones were rooted and unlocked android devices that they still helped me with on support issues. They've always went beyond. I can't say the same for BlackBerry

[cjcampbell]

When I bought the z10 on launch day, I waited outside for the t-mobile store in my area to open. In downtown Los Angeles, the business district. When they opened I was 3rd in line, they told me they didn't know anything about a new BlackBerry and that they didn't have them. After I convinced them they really should have them and that corporate had announced it they looked in the back. The guy came back out and clearly felt stupid. He found them. He apologized. I could tell he knew nothing about it and that he felt ashamed of that or at least felt surprised. They had 4 of them, I bought 2. There were no signs, no posters. No info. A few days later there was a BlackBerry stand with the z10, no rep had ever shown up to educate them. This stuff isn't tmobiles fault. Why do they care what phone I buy? They have always been incredibly nice to me when dealing with phone issues. Actually that's the first phone I purchased from them. I bought them outright. All other phones were rooted and unlocked android devices that they still helped me with on support issues. They've always went beyond. I can't say the same for BlackBerry

I'm really curious as to why folks seem to think that BlackBerry, or any other phone manufacturer or even any other product manufacturer at that, is supposed to send a rep to every one of the millions of stores around the world. The retail outlets are responsible for knowing their product and educating their staff. This comes from the top down. I used to work in specialty retail and we only had 30 stores across the country. Our head office made sure that the regional managers were trained on any new product, from how to use and specs. They were then responsible for training the store managers, who in turn were responsible for training the store employees. We were also encouraged "strongly" to build and use the equipment in order to properly know what we were selling. Now that is how retail should operate.

[cbvinh]

I'm really curious as to why folks seem to think that BlackBerry, or any other phone manufacturer or even any other product manufacturer at that, is supposed to send a rep to every one of the millions of stores around the world. The retail outlets are responsible for knowing their product and educating their staff. This comes from the top down. I used to work in specialty retail and we only had 30 stores across the country. Our head office made sure that the regional managers were trained on any new product, from how to use and specs. They were then responsible for training the store managers, who in turn were responsible for training the store employees. We were also encouraged "strongly" to build and use the equipment in order to properly know what we were selling. Now that is how retail should operate.

Obviously that doesn't always happen. How many people remark about poorly trained sales staff? It's an ongoing complaint.

Apple, for example, sure took notice of this situation. It's probably why you find Apple reps in non-Apple Stores. They make sure their products are well represented.

[Troy Tiscareno]

I'm really curious as to why folks seem to think that BlackBerry, or any other phone manufacturer or even any other product manufacturer at that, is supposed to send a rep to every one of the millions of stores around the world.

Because that is in fact exactly what happens. A couple of months ago, I took my mother to the AT&T store to straighten out a billing issue (it was a data entry problem, but the result was she couldn't pay her bill by phone). While I was there, a Samsung rep was there with a new phone model and was checking out the displays and answering questions from both sales reps and customers. I asked the rep, and he stated that he is responsible for a couple dozen or so stores, and visits each store every 2-3 weeks to train new staff and keep displays updated with the latest products.

Last week, my brother dropped in to a Radio Shack to pay his Virgin Mobile bill since we were right next door, and I asked them how often they see manufacturer's reps. I was told that Apple and Samsung each visit every 4-6 weeks, and LG and HTC were about every 8-12 weeks.

Now, to be sure, this was a very small sample size, but I live on the very edge of the SF Bay Area, 40+ miles from San Francisco, so it wasn't like I was in a big city. Clearly, the manufacturers DO send out reps and train sales staff, among other things. That's what it takes to play the consumer smartphone retail game. It's no one's fault but BB's if they got into the game without the resources to play.

[cjcampbell]

Because that is in fact exactly what happens. A couple of months ago, I took my mother to the AT&T store to straighten out a billing issue (it was a data entry problem, but the result was she couldn't pay her bill by phone). While I was there, a Samsung rep was there with a new phone model and was checking out the displays and answering questions from both sales reps and customers. I asked the rep, and he stated that he is responsible for a couple dozen or so stores, and visits each store every 2-3 weeks to train new staff and keep displays updated with the latest products.

Last week, my brother dropped in to a Radio Shack to pay his Virgin Mobile bill since we were right next door, and I asked them how often they see manufacturer's reps. I was told that Apple and Samsung each visit every 4-6 weeks, and LG and HTC were about every 8-12 weeks.

Now, to be sure, this was a very small sample size, but I live on the very edge of the SF Bay Area, 40+ miles from San Francisco, so it wasn't like I was in a big city. Clearly, the manufacturers DO send out reps and train sales staff, among other things. That's what it takes to play the consumer smartphone retail game. It's no one's fault but BB's if they got into the game without the resources to play.

Fair enough, but... of course there has to be a but .... I'm sure that the store managers and employees aren't sitting around without any product knowledge just waiting for that rep to show up to show them a new product. On launch day of the GS5, do you think all stores are going to have a rep visiting? Probably not. Do you think the staff will know what the features are? I would certainly hope so.

[katiepea]

My point was that I think maybe if you can't have reps everywhere that the business district of downtown LA on the launch day of a product you expect to save the company is not a tall order. At least go as far to make carrier stores aware your product exists.

[Doggerz]

The Q5 should be 149.99. Period. Shop blackberry has them at 250.00 and the 100 discount won't work for Q5. If it did I'd pick one up for 150.00.

Realistic prices would be
Q5 149.99
Z10 199.99
Q10 249.99
Z30 349.99

BlackBerry needs to get handsets in people's hands.

I would have never gotten my first BlackBerry 8530 had it been 5-700 dollars.
It was 150.00. I've always paid for phones outright and never on contract/subsidized.

I paid 549.00 for my 9810 because I had already been introduced to BlackBerry.

It was still paying too much but they had me hooked. Get people hooked BlackBerry!

via CB10 using a Z10 / STL100-3 / RFK121LW / 10.2.1.2234 / T-Mobile USA

[katiepea]

I've been saying the z30 should be $350 for a long time. That is simply not a $500 device.

[BB10user07]

I've been saying the z30 should be $350 for a long time. That is simply not a $500 device.

Great..then BlackBerry might as well shut the operations and sell the patents...How do you expect them to make any money if they keep pricing devices at or below cost..

Posted via CB10

[katiepea]

Great..then BlackBerry might as well shut the operations and sell the patents...How do you expect them to make any money if they keep pricing devices at or below cost..

Posted via CB10

Well selling devices that aren't on par with the market at higher costs than competitors hasn't worked out well for them has it? They need market share growth, the current pricing isn't providing that.

[cbvinh]

Great..then BlackBerry might as well shut the operations and sell the patents...How do you expect them to make any money if they keep pricing devices at or below cost..

Well, given the huge write off, they certainly could have done better by dropping the price. It's not like the sales problem suddenly hit them...

When the first iPhone came out, it was $600. Apple had no market share. They knew they needed to get the ball rolling. Sales probably started out really fast (from Apple fans), but tapered off very quickly. The general public was still used to subsidized phones, which the iPhone was not. Two months later, the price was slashed by $200 to $400. Early adopters cried foul, but they were eventually appeased with $100 store credits (note that Apple still pocketed $100 from these early adopters compared to everyone else who bought after the price drop?).

BlackBerry should have been watching their sales and reacted appropriately. They have marketing people. They should have recognized that even selling at a loss (and gaining market share) was better than keeping the margins. (I personally think they tried to keep the margins high to keep the stock price "up".) BlackBerry seemed more interested in their image to shareholders than developing their products. (I blame the BlackBerry Board of Directors, not Thorsten Heins. He seemed genuinely interested in building something new, whereas the Board probably didn't want the stock price to drop.)

At this point, BlackBerry could either take the Apple approach or the Samsung approach...

Apple: Always work on the high-end. The high-end becomes the new mid the following year, then the low-end following that...
Samsung: Build products for every price point...

BlackBerry seemed to be taking the Apple route: Z10 and Q10 high-end, then Z10, Q5 mid, Z30, Q10 high-end, but now there will be the Z3 and Q20, which is beginning to mirror Samsung's approach. There's nothing wrong with that. They just need to drop the price when the product gets old and not have them sit in warehouses.

[Orange UK]

Oh Chen... this whole T-Mobile drama is showing what a boy you are not a MAN, T-Mobile went on a promo as its making more money out of Apple over yourself because they have better handsets and services too now since BIS is dead on BB10, that's BUSNESS !

You throw a public hissy fit showing every carrier worldwide how unprofessional you are and DESPERATE BB is. Then stick your tongue out at T-Mobile again by dumping them at a time you know you "HAVE to make money", someone has issues, you took this job willingly to try and flog a dead horse - no one really wants without BIS...BB10 handsets.

You then try to look like the bigger man by doing EXACTLY what T-Mobile done in a promo that you had a hissy fit about to start this all off and to add insult to injury...for the petty amount of $100.... really if you wanna stop so low...at least double the T-Mobile offer not half it!


SHOCKING behaviour and damaging unprofessionalism from a CEO...you need to go like T-Mobile US....away from BB.

[Irish Blues]

Sad that BlackBerry will lose another $100 per device sold, with no way to recoup the loss.

This presumes that the $100 discount results in a loss on devices. Seeing as how BBRY has already pretty much written down inventory for the BB10 handsets to zero, there's no further "loss" involved here and we're discussing whether the company should continue to sit on inventory asking $299/$499 for the Z10/Q10 or offer consumers $100 off to help move product. One of those helps build goodwill with current customers and maybe even helps sway some prior customers to give the phone a(nother) shot - especially if people who currently use the devices can talk them up (see below).

Sad that things have gotten to the point where BlackBerry can't afford to do business, the way business is done. BlackBerry doesn't have a product that people are buying in the store, they sure aren't going to go looking for it on line.

I for one applaud the move. As a consumer, I'd rather pay $299 to Blackberry for a Z10 than pay $499 to T-Mobile for the same phone. That's $200 back in my pocket that I can decide how I want to spend, not have to fork it over to line someone else's pocket while being told they're doing me a favor. As far as "doing business how business is done," the game lately has been "trash Blackberry at every chance, actively try to steer people to the latest iPhone or Android device." Why should Blackberry continue to roll over and take it lying down?

Blackberry doesn't need the "help" of carriers and salespeople working for those carriers right now; it needs customers to do the advertising by word of mouth. Positive reviews from BB10 users will do a whole lot more than the average salesperson - even if that means opening yourself up to finger-pointing from alleged friends about it.

[chr1sny]

Well selling devices that aren't on par with the market at higher costs than competitors hasn't worked out well for them has it? They need market share growth, the current pricing isn't providing that.

We don't give a crap about your elitist views on specs. The pricing is in line to the quality of the device. It's not just about ppi and SoC...

Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141

Such an abrasive response by Dave. Specs aside, do you think the z30's camera is in the same class as its peers?

[Irish Blues]

Well selling devices that aren't on par with the market at higher costs than competitors hasn't worked out well for them has it? They need market share growth, the current pricing isn't providing that.

Let's ignore the 2-year agreement, subsidized prices and look at what the hot phones right now sell for, one-time "you buy it, it's yours, no payments."

-- Z10: $199 right now (after $100 off)
-- Q10: $299 right now (after $100 off)
-- Moto X: $399.99 at Verizon
-- Droid Ultra: $499.99 at Verizon
-- Nokia Lumia Icon: $549.99 at Verizon
-- Samsung Galaxy S5: currently $599.99 at Verizon on pre-order.
-- iPhone 5s: $649.99 at Verizon

The Z10 and Q10 compare pretty favorably to most of those devices (save the GS5) - and currently are lower priced than all of them. The Z30 would run $499.99 and would trash all of those phones, again save the GS5.

What's that about BB devices being sold at a higher cost? The evidence shows that claim doesn't hold water.

[Dave Bourque]

Such an abrasive response by Dave. Specs aside, do you think the z30's camera is in the same class as its peers?

It's a response that needs to be said. Nobody is calling for price cuts on the Moto X. Z30 camera is good to some bad to others. It's hard to say because the software for BB10 camera hasn't reached the same maturity as iOS and Android. 10.3 camera proves that.

Z10STL100-3/10.2.1.2141

[badiyee]

Because that is in fact exactly what happens. A couple of months ago, I took my mother to the AT&T store to straighten out a billing issue (it was a data entry problem, but the result was she couldn't pay her bill by phone). While I was there, a Samsung rep was there with a new phone model and was checking out the displays and answering questions from both sales reps and customers. I asked the rep, and he stated that he is responsible for a couple dozen or so stores, and visits each store every 2-3 weeks to train new staff and keep displays updated with the latest products.

Last week, my brother dropped in to a Radio Shack to pay his Virgin Mobile bill since we were right next door, and I asked them how often they see manufacturer's reps. I was told that Apple and Samsung each visit every 4-6 weeks, and LG and HTC were about every 8-12 weeks.

Now, to be sure, this was a very small sample size, but I live on the very edge of the SF Bay Area, 40+ miles from San Francisco, so it wasn't like I was in a big city. Clearly, the manufacturers DO send out reps and train sales staff, among other things. That's what it takes to play the consumer smartphone retail game. It's no one's fault but BB's if they got into the game without the resources to play.

I think you're taking your views, of the skewed samples that you have, and balooning it over and imposes that it should be done that way.


In the parts of the world where I live, a different system of distribution is used.

Distributors buy in bulk from company's appointed import permit holders, and no trainings are given. Basically its up to these distributors to buy what they think sells best. Even Apple doesn't give a crap, except when it comes to official channels that they have inked deals with, where Apple controls the messaging of the adverts, the time, and what items to sell. Even with that, no personnel training.

So whoever is manning the counter to sell devices, its up to his or her discretion on what to promote.

The absolute weakness to the sytem? The commision rates. Samsung pays on a near loss (but retailers earn on sheer volume sold to end customers) to retailers on the commisions as long as they can push the volumes. And not a single training done ever.

[Omnitech]

What this offer is, is essentially an attempt to ditch the insane z10 inventory to people who still have OS7 devices.

For your claim to be even remotely credible, it would have to apply ONLY to the Z10.

Yet the discount applies also to the Q10 and the Q5.

So much for that theory.

It's not truly an offer to the BlackBerry fans, just an attempt to unload inventory.

Another thing that always amazes me is how people who claim to be "fans" of a struggling company that is desperately trying to find some source of profit so they can stay in business, turn around and constantly bray for the company or its resellers to bestow them with ridiculous money-losing deals on the product. Do you demand that your niece the Girl Scout give you a 50% discount on the Girl Scout cookies she's trying to sell too? It seems this "loyalty" only extends to whenever they can get their next bargain-basement deal on the product.

Well selling devices that aren't on par with the market at higher costs than competitors hasn't worked out well for them has it? They need market share growth, the current pricing isn't providing that.

There are a variety of reasons why BlackBerry's BB10 rollout did not go well, and price of the product was not the main reason. Though when the "fair weather fans" decide they want a new smartphone for next to nothing, it seems that this is typically the rationale they love to trot out there as a cover for their personal sense of entitlement.

You know what would be funny? Ask people who claim to be "fans" to donate money (or even a bit of their time) no-strings-attached to the company to help them stay afloat. The laughter would surely deafen us all.

[Omnitech]

This presumes that the $100 discount results in a loss on devices. Seeing as how BBRY has already pretty much written down inventory for the BB10 handsets to zero, there's no further "loss" involved here and we're discussing whether the company should continue to sit on inventory asking $299/$499 for the Z10/Q10 or offer consumers $100 off to help move product. One of those helps build goodwill with current customers and maybe even helps sway some prior customers to give the phone a(nother) shot - especially if people who currently use the devices can talk them up (see below).

I agree it's a good idea on a certain level - especially as a strategic move to take control of the stupid T-Mobile spat and show some leadership - but regardless whether they wrote down that inventory, if you were a BBRY shareholder would you be consistently advising the company to give away valuable assets just because people demand "free stuph"? I find the stance on these sorts of arguments to be, more often than not, extremely self-serving. People who want "free stuph" are always making up rationalizations why they should get "free stuph", and then you take the same person who, say, works at the company or holds stock, there's NO WAY they're going to be advocating that. "Oh yeah, we lose 50% on every widget we sell, but we'll surely make it up in volume!!"

I for one applaud the move. As a consumer, I'd rather pay $299 to Blackberry for a Z10 than pay $499 to T-Mobile for the same phone. That's $200 back in my pocket that I can decide how I want to spend, not have to fork it over to line someone else's pocket while being told they're doing me a favor.

Most people would choose buying the same thing for $299 over buying it for $499, unless the person selling for $299 was asking for their house in return or something.

As far as "doing business how business is done," the game lately has been "trash Blackberry at every chance, actively try to steer people to the latest iPhone or Android device." Why should Blackberry continue to roll over and take it lying down?

I certainly agree on that.

Blackberry doesn't need the "help" of carriers and salespeople working for those carriers right now; it needs customers to do the advertising by word of mouth. Positive reviews from BB10 users will do a whole lot more than the average salesperson - even if that means opening yourself up to finger-pointing from alleged friends about it.

And this seems to be the thing that we can never get the so-called "fans" to do - their "loyalty" more often than not goes about as far as the next bargain-basement deal.

BlackBerry right now is struggling for their survival. There is simply no way that they have the resources necessary - minimum hundreds of millions of dollars in marketing, advertising and support costs - to make even a small dent in markets like the USA. They are hunkering-down, trying to build revenue in areas that actually show some potential to deliver that in the near-term, rather than the stupid endless money-pit that the smartphone business in the USA is right now.

So it will be at least a year or two before BlackBerry can return to a significant presence in the US smartphone market, they simply do not have the resources to make much of a push in it right now.

So once again I ask: are the "fans" willing to actually contribute anything towards keeping the company afloat to fight for smartphone marketshare another day, or are they going to just keep griping constantly about not getting cheap enough bargains on product? And "contributing" can amount to nothing more than a bit of personal evangelism, as you noted.

Personally, I doubt it.

[Omnitech]

I'm really curious as to why folks seem to think that BlackBerry, or any other phone manufacturer or even any other product manufacturer at that, is supposed to send a rep to every one of the millions of stores around the world. The retail outlets are responsible for knowing their product and educating their staff. This comes from the top down. I used to work in specialty retail and we only had 30 stores across the country. Our head office made sure that the regional managers were trained on any new product, from how to use and specs. They were then responsible for training the store managers, who in turn were responsible for training the store employees. We were also encouraged "strongly" to build and use the equipment in order to properly know what we were selling. Now that is how retail should operate.

As a person who spent over 10 years in retail, I totally agree with you. However, there is a minor caveat, see below.

My point was that I think maybe if you can't have reps everywhere that the business district of downtown LA on the launch day of a product you expect to save the company is not a tall order. At least go as far to make carrier stores aware your product exists.

It is undoubtedly true that smartphone vendors - particularly the "rich" ones like Samsung and Apple - often send reps in the field to showcase and tout their products to retailers.

And it is also undoubtedly true that one of BlackBerry's glaring weaknesses is their terrible communications and interactions with customers and resellers. It seems like this was likely a manifestation of Lazaridis and Balsillie's infamously aloof and - some would say - arrogant approach during the latter years of RIM before BB10.

In fact, John Chen has stated on multiple occasions that he is aware that communications was a weak point for the company. So it seems that they are going to work on improving that.

All that said: BlackBerry has terminated 3 times as many employees over the last 2 years than their total number of current employees. There is NO WAY that they currently have the resources to send an army of marketing reps all over the world to hand-hold every store that might want to sell their product. It simply isn't going to happen right now.

So while I agree it would be "nice", there are a lot of infeasible things that would be "nice". Samsung for example pays ridiculous amounts of cash spiffs to mobile sales staff all around the world to promote their product. Blackberry simply is NOT in the position to do that right now.

I do think that the company can do a lot better on marketing, advertising, documentation, publicizing their corporate message and so on, but honestly I have no illusions that we will see much improvement on that for at least a year if not longer in this market. They just do not have the manpower right now.

But as cjcampbell wrote, there's still no excuse for salespeople passing-around blatant lies - either intentional, commission-driven fraudulent lies, or just the good old lies borne out of ignorance. If you are an "industry professional", I expect you to have at least a minimum degree of industry knowledge. And knowing whether or not a famous industry vendor is still in business or not is a ridiculously easy bit of knowledge to possess.

.